SoBeZ
Apr 7 2005, 07:46 PM
True or False?
". . . they dig into hell . . ." Amos 9:2
The following article appeared in the well respected Finland newspaper,
Ammenusastia
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As a communist I don’t believe in heaven or the Bible but as a scientist I now believe in hell," said Dr. Azzacove. "Needless to say we were shocked to make such a discovery. But we know what we saw and we know what we heard. And we are absolutely convinced that we drilled through the gates of hell!"
Dr. Azzacove continued, ". . .the drill suddenly began to rotate wildly, indicating that we had reached a large empty pocket or cavern. Temperature sensors showed a dramatic increase in heat to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit."
"We lowered a microphone, designed to detect the sounds of plate movements down the shaft. But instead of plate movements we heard a human voice screaming in pain! At first we thought the sound was coming from our own equipment."
"But when we made adjustments our worst suspicions were confirmed. The screams weren’t those of a single human, they were the screams of millions of humans!"
Caution:
Listen to audio: Click Here
Please note: The tape talks first then in that last 30 seconds
you will hear what they heard!
Jeep
Apr 7 2005, 08:49 PM
[quote=SoBeZ,Apr 7 2005, 07:46 PM]
True or False?
". . . they dig into hell . . ." Amos 9:2
The following article appeared in the well respected Finland newspaper,
Ammenusastia
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As a communist I don’t believe in heaven or the Bible but as a scientist I now believe in hell," said Dr. Azzacove. "Needless to say we were shocked to make such a discovery. But we know what we saw and we know what we heard. And we are absolutely convinced that we drilled through the gates of hell!"
an attached link to de-bunk this urban legend
http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.htm
Jeep
SoBeZ
Apr 7 2005, 08:52 PM
It was fake?!?! Ohhh now I feel stupid.
Jeep
Apr 7 2005, 09:04 PM
QUOTE(SoBeZ @ Apr 7 2005, 08:52 PM)
It was fake?!?! Ohhh now I feel stupid.
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No need to feel that way...you're not stupid. Thanks for sharing your post with us
Jeep
Simple
Apr 8 2005, 05:03 AM
You made me laugh Sobez .
I was caught up in that story too as you told it .
Marta
Apr 8 2005, 06:09 AM
grumbletiger
May 11 2005, 08:22 PM
a couple of years ago the same exact thing happened in siberia, and the recording from it is circulating widely still. I know its most likely a fake story, but the recording is very very very eerie! anyhow, just thought I'd let you know. God Bless!
grumbletiger
May 11 2005, 09:16 PM
same story
Im an idiot! sorry! Those guys didn't do a very good job of proving it false though... anyhow, have a great one!
Tomasito Brown
May 15 2005, 02:25 AM
Scientists are afraid that they have opened the gates of hell. A geological group who drilled a hole about 14.4 kilometers deep (about 9 miles) in the crust of the earth, are saying that they heard human screams. Screams have been heard from the condemned should from earth's deepest hole. Terrified scientists are afraid they have let loose the evil powers of hell up to the earth's surface.
"The information we are gathering is so surprising, that we are sincerely afraid of what we might find down there," stated Mr. Azzacov, the manager of the project to drill a 14.4 kilometer hole in remote Siberia.
The geologists were dumbfounded. After they drilled several kilometers through the earth's crust, the drill bit suddenly began to rotate wildly. "There is only one explanation - that the deep center of the earth is hollow," the surprised Azzacov explained.
The second surprise was the high temperature they discovered in the earth's center. "The calculations indicate the given temperature was about 1,100 degrees Celsius, or over 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit," Dr. Azzacov points out. "This is far more than we expected. It seems almost like an inferno of fire is brutally going on in the center of the earth."
"The last discovery was nevertheless the most shocking to our ears, so much so that the scientists are afraid to continue the project. We tried to listen to the earth's movements at certain intervals with super-sensitive microphones, which were let down through the hole. What we heard, turned those logically thinking scientists into trembling ruins.
"It was sometimes a weak but high pitched sound which we thought to be coming from our own equipment," explained Dr. Azzacov. "But after some adjustments we comprehended that indeed the sound came from the earth's interior. We could hardly believe our own ears.
We heard a human voice, screaming in pain. Even though one voice was discernible, we could hear thousands, perhaps millions, in the background, of suffering souls screaming. After this ghastly discovery, about half of the scientists quit because of fear. Hopefully, that which is down there will stay there," Dr. Azzacov added.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One last note, one source claiming to quote the entire article stated that certain paranormal manifestations occurred after the shaft broke through into the pit nine miles below, namely a vaporous image of a creature with horns temporarily manifested and then later dissipated. Whether this claim was actually made by the geologists or not is still uncertain.
Tomasito Brown
May 15 2005, 03:05 AM
But God is a God of LOVE. . . Why would a GOD OF LOVE send me to hell? Yes, God is a GOD OF LOVE
HOLY GOD. A HOLY GOD demands payment for sin. Otherwise God would NOT and could NOT be HOLY.
Because God is a GOD OF LOVE, and He LOVED YOU so much, He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to this earth to die a cruel death on a cross to pay the price a HOLY GOD demands for your sins.
God does not send someone to hell. You choose hell when you reject Jesus Christ. When you refuse God's love gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ. . .
Come Let Us Reason Together
Jun 3 2005, 01:23 PM
I have heard this audio and I have read the flakey attempt by the urban legend website to disprove it, however:
There is something ominously real about the audio. You can hear the torturers commanding and taunting and the very real sound of mens voices and in particular female screams or high pitched male screams of both sheer terror and pain or just sheer terror which is also pain.
It's by far the most eerie thing I've ever heard and it probably scared the pants off of the urban legend website host and his only recourse to block the sheer terror of what he heard was to attempt to discredit it. I don't blame ANY unbeliever in Yashua as the Messiah wanting to discredit such evidence of their own future.
I am a Christian (Yahudim is the true word - not Christ-ian), and though I have the hope of salvation, the adoption through accepting Yahushua as my saviour, yet this audio and the story, which I am sorry to say, seems VERY TRUE was very unsettling, even for me. I can imagine what the effect must be on an unsaved sinner!
If you think it is bunk, I advise you NOT to listen to the rebuttal of it by an unsaved individual, but investigate it for yourself.
If the United States government or ANY government for that matter had discovered this, do you honestly believe they would reveal it to you? If it leaked - it would HAVE to be discredited in order for them to maintain control.
I warn you - if you are a follower of Yashua - pray before you listen - it's extremely frightening:
Sounds From The Center Of The Earth
ishtob
Jun 3 2005, 02:58 PM
I myself have heard this recording and found it to be VERY believable.
I agree with the previous poster...
~Ish
mead777
Jun 3 2005, 03:48 PM
Here is a more complete website on the "recording from hell":
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/drilltohellfacts.htmI never cared for Trinity Broadcasting Network!
This is one of the reasons why!
Give me 100 Huntley Street!
http://www.crossroads.ca/broadcas/about100b.htm 
Guest
Jun 3 2005, 06:25 PM
I find it odd that this article doesn't mention the associated "recording" or audio file. As a recording engineer and sound engineer I would like to know how this recording was made and if it is faked, by who and what did they use to make it. There was absoilutely a horror to it.
On the other hand - even if it were faked - which none of us have any way of knowing, unless you've actually been to hell - it is irrelevant to the fact that the Bible describes hell as a horrible place, in fact the most horrifying, terrifying place in God's creation. Though the audio is indeed a bit unsettling, to experience a place so awful, so hideous, so hopeless that Yashua described it as a place of WEEPING, WAILING and KNASHING OF TEETH - do we really need an audio file or a video file of it's reality in order to believe what the Messiah has warned us to avoid going to? NO!
Yashua's description of hell is good enough reason for me NOT to want to be IN THAT NUMBER who discover it's reality - THE HARD WAY.
A place that is so horrible that those that have so cursed themselves to go find a place of weeping, wailing and knashing of teeth - with that in mind, either this recording is authentic or someone truly captured what Yashua described.
Jeep
Jun 3 2005, 08:56 PM
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 3 2005, 06:25 PM)
I find it odd that this article doesn't mention the associated "recording" or audio file. As a recording engineer and sound engineer I would like to know how this recording was made and if it is faked, by who and what did they use to make it. There was absoilutely a horror to it.
On the other hand - even if it were faked - which none of us have any way of knowing, unless you've actually been to hell - it is irrelevant to the fact that the Bible describes hell as a horrible place, in fact the most horrifying, terrifying place in God's creation. Though the audio is indeed a bit unsettling, to experience a place so awful, so hideous, so hopeless that Yashua described it as a place of WEEPING, WAILING and KNASHING OF TEETH - do we really need an audio file or a video file of it's reality in order to believe what the Messiah has warned us to avoid going to? NO!
Yashua's description of hell is good enough reason for me NOT to want to be IN THAT NUMBER who discover it's reality - THE HARD WAY.
A place that is so horrible that those that have so cursed themselves to go find a place of weeping, wailing and knashing of teeth - with that in mind, either this recording is authentic or someone truly captured what Yashua described.
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[color=blue]I guess I am a skeptic, I'll have to research this more. I haven't heard the sound bytes yet, but wasn't this recording made quite a while ago? In siberia or something like that?
I agree with the facts that any government would mute this...but at the end of the day just think about this....If you prove God exists, the paradigm that you would create worldwide would also create chaos as most if not all forms of commerce and government would cease because of crisis of conscience. But the flip side of the coin is....if you were to disprove God the world would sink into chaos as well because there would be no infinite repercussions to our actions in life.
It's much safer for societies to assume...really...if you think about it.
As far as the hole in hell story, theory, hoax? Well it is a very useful tool for the kingdom of God if it makes people who experience the story sit back and re-think their theology and salvation. Some people require "extreme" avenues to be reached, and saved.
Jeep[/color]
ishtob
Jun 4 2005, 04:24 AM
Okay, okay...
I watched the movie "Event Horizon" this evening, and I gotta admit the sounds on this audio sounded a lot like the audio they had in the movie.
That movie was really eerie too!
Come Let Us Reason Together
Jun 4 2005, 11:01 AM
No one will ever know for sure if this is a hoax or not, but rather it is a hoax or not is not the issue.
To the believer it brings to life (reality) the idea that hell IS real as we have read. Funny thing about the human creature, believers in particular. We SAY we believe what Yahushua teaches us in the bible:
* That YHWH loves us
* We will be saved into His Kingdom
* That there is a place of punishment called hell
And many more teachings. Now watch how we Yahudim (Christ-ians) respond when any of these THINGS we have been taught manifest in our current reality, remember, WE ALL SAY WE BELIEVE:
* That YHWH loves us
-------------------------
The first time one of us is actually TOUCHED by YHWH, for instance in His allowing us to actually FEEL his love, causing us to be as they say, "slain in the spirit" when His love comes upon us and is so powerful of a force it literally knocks you down and sends you into a temporary state of bliss and euphoria (drunk in the spirit). The first time it happens the BELIEVER almost always is thinking, "GOD IS REAL, GOD IS REAL, GOD IS REAL!" But I thought we as believers already KNEW that God is real!? Even as believers, we have that THOMAS in us.
* We will be saved into His Kingdom
------------------------------------------
Most Yahudim don't have the slightest idea what His kingdom looks like or feels like. You would think that their greatest quest in life would be to pursue as much knowledge about His kingdom as possible, but we don't. Are quest are still worldly and clinging to this world and the material gain of it.
When one of us actually has an opportunity to experience His kingdom, either by vision or by near-death-experience the BELIEVER comes back with a settled heart on the matter of "fear-of-death" and now KNOWS that His kingdom is REAL. But I thought we already BELIEVED that His kingdom was real?
It is one thing to have FAITH in that His Kingdom is real, another to REALIZE it is real.
* That there is a place of punishment called hell
-------------------------------------------------------
As believers we all BELIEVE that hell is real because we are taught that it is by the words of Yahushua, but to hear an audio of the torments of hell, rather real or faked brings home (rekindles in our mind) that hell is a REAL place that MANY unfortunate people ARE experiencing and many more WILL experience.
The audio, rather real or faked, only rekindles in the believer a place so horrible that even an actual REAL audio of it could not do it justice. It is a place that, as believers, we don't spend much time thinking about, because we're not going there. To the unbeliever, it can have many benefits in bringing them OUT OF their carnal, temporal life for a moment and contemplate their true future and give credence to repenting and turning to Yahushua for help and guidance as to how to avoid such a horrifying fate.
Most importantly though, if this audio and story is fake the perpetrator had DECEIVED and in no way are we to deceive in order to bring souls into salvation.
To the unbelievers I say, approach the promises of God regrading His kingdom and your future in it as a business proposition. If it is real and you repent and start liviing your life for God you have escaped hell and gained heaven. If it is not real, what have you lost? However, you will know, if you give God the least bit of ingress into your heart that He is real and His promise of salvation is also real.
There will come a time when we will all SEE, and those that do not believe now WILL BELIEVE. But as Yashua stated, "Blessed are they who have SEEN and believed, but MORE BLESSED are they who have not seen and believed.
Marta
Jun 4 2005, 07:26 PM
QUOTE(Come Let Us Reason Together @ Jun 4 2005, 10:01 AM)
No one will ever know for sure if this is a hoax or not, but rather it is a hoax or not is not the issue.
To the believer it brings to life (reality) the idea that hell IS real as we have read. Funny thing about the human creature, believers in particular. We SAY we believe what Yahushua teaches us in the bible:
* That YHWH loves us
* We will be saved into His Kingdom
* That there is a place of punishment called hell
And many more teachings. Now watch how we Yahudim (Christ-ians) respond when any of these THINGS we have been taught manifest in our current reality, remember, WE ALL SAY WE BELIEVE:
* That YHWH loves us
-------------------------
The first time one of us is actually TOUCHED by YHWH, for instance in His allowing us to actually FEEL his love, causing us to be as they say, "slain in the spirit" when His love comes upon us and is so powerful of a force it literally knocks you down and sends you into a temporary state of bliss and euphoria (drunk in the spirit). The first time it happens the BELIEVER almost always is thinking, "GOD IS REAL, GOD IS REAL, GOD IS REAL!" But I thought we as believers already KNEW that God is real!? Even as believers, we have that THOMAS in us.
* We will be saved into His Kingdom
------------------------------------------
Most Yahudim don't have the slightest idea what His kingdom looks like or feels like. You would think that their greatest quest in life would be to pursue as much knowledge about His kingdom as possible, but we don't. Are quest are still worldly and clinging to this world and the material gain of it.
When one of us actually has an opportunity to experience His kingdom, either by vision or by near-death-experience the BELIEVER comes back with a settled heart on the matter of "fear-of-death" and now KNOWS that His kingdom is REAL. But I thought we already BELIEVED that His kingdom was real?
It is one thing to have FAITH in that His Kingdom is real, another to REALIZE it is real.
* That there is a place of punishment called hell
-------------------------------------------------------
As believers we all BELIEVE that hell is real because we are taught that it is by the words of Yahushua, but to hear an audio of the torments of hell, rather real or faked brings home (rekindles in our mind) that hell is a REAL place that MANY unfortunate people ARE experiencing and many more WILL experience.
The audio, rather real or faked, only rekindles in the believer a place so horrible that even an actual REAL audio of it could not do it justice. It is a place that, as believers, we don't spend much time thinking about, because we're not going there. To the unbeliever, it can have many benefits in bringing them OUT OF their carnal, temporal life for a moment and contemplate their true future and give credence to repenting and turning to Yahushua for help and guidance as to how to avoid such a horrifying fate.
Most importantly though, if this audio and story is fake the perpetrator had DECEIVED and in no way are we to deceive in order to bring souls into salvation.
To the unbelievers I say, approach the promises of God regrading His kingdom and your future in it as a business proposition. If it is real and you repent and start liviing your life for God you have escaped hell and gained heaven. If it is not real, what have you lost? However, you will know, if you give God the least bit of ingress into your heart that He is real and His promise of salvation is also real.
There will come a time when we will all SEE, and those that do not believe now WILL BELIEVE. But as Yashua stated, "Blessed are they who have SEEN and believed, but MORE BLESSED are they who have not seen and believed.
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Welcome Come Let Us Reason Together!!!!!!!!!!
QUOTE
I guess I am a skeptic, I'll have to research this more. I haven't heard the sound bytes yet, but wasn't this recording made quite a while ago? In siberia or something like that?
I agree with the facts that any government would mute this...but at the end of the day just think about this....If you prove God exists, the paradigm that you would create worldwide would also create chaos as most if not all forms of commerce and government would cease because of crisis of conscience. But the flip side of the coin is....if you were to disprove God the world would sink into chaos as well because there would be no infinite repercussions to our actions in life.
It's much safer for societies to assume...really...if you think about it.
As far as the hole in hell story, theory, hoax? Well it is a very useful tool for the kingdom of God if it makes people who experience the story sit back and re-think their theology and salvation. Some people require "extreme" avenues to be reached, and saved.
Jeep,
Yup...were on the same level! I'd like to really check into it too!
Let us know what you find.
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 08:24 AM
Um.....I am so glad I read this in the morning and not late last night.....
Come Let Us Reason Together - I LOVE THAT NAME!!!!!!!!!!!
Tomisito - How it all happens seems to me to be purely conjecture. We know we all get a new body that is not like what we have now. Whether it is one made to survive with or without what we breath here (Jesus came back and was OK, but left to where we say there is no oxygen) or wither it can eat (Jesus ate fish to calm his friends), is conjecture at best. We'll know when we get there. But we do know we wil all be raised and all be judged. Lord, I HOPE you are not going to hell. Do you feel a saving problem now?
For what it is worth, I will give my "two sheckels". I believe from putting scripture together about a loving God vs. judgment, that God is not going to punish anyone.
I believe in torment, don't get me wrong, but I believe we are going to do it ourselves. No scripture must not be at odds with another. I believe that we don't even realize the grace of our God. We walk around and feel great or maybe our back hurts alittle, and we may even complain that we don't really feel well, not knowing that, all the time, Gods hand is over our head keeping this miserable dieing body, so unlike what he wanted us to really have, is in torture at all times. So unbearable is the pain we would know is already present in the body we shower off every day and dress up, that we would cry out to die to stop the burning. But we don't know it. We don't know it becasue that is God calling to us all, everyone, because his hand is over everone's head and hoping they will accept him as their Lord it receive the new body. And we have until our last breath to do it. After that, faith becomes knowledge and faith is the only door into "heaven" and to receiving that new painless body. We have the right to so no. Did he tell us the fate? Yes he did in all the hell stories that scare us like above. They give me the heebie geebies! Hell is a place and it is a place where God will not be able to keep your body from hurting you. He's not doing it. It comes with the territory. It is automatic with the existing conditions of what you have now. You can choose to accept the deal - I am your God; you get a new body - or not. OUR choice.
GOD DIDN'T DO IT (I like that handle, maybe I will change my forum name)
Leia
lov4all
Sep 19 2005, 09:27 AM
From everything I've studied in my bible, I'm ready to assert that this is (hopefully) false, or at best one of Satan's end-time deceptions. Doesn't the bible say the dead know not anything? And if we all go to either one place or the other when we die, then what is the point of the second coming? If we are already in heaven, why does the bible say that the righteous will be resurected at the second coming and THEN we will be given our perfect new sinless bodies? I believe that our righteous God and father will reward the righteous at his son's second coming (the bible tells us our reward is with him when he comes to take us to heaven for 1000 years. THEN, we will return to earth and the wicked will be consumed in a fire from God in heaven After Satan and his armies (the unsaved) mount one final attempted attack on the New Jerusalem. The whole idea (look in your encyclopedias) of people roasting in hell was devised as a money making scheme by the catholic church (I desperately hope not to offend ANY catholic brothers or sisters!!! I am in no way speaking against faithful, god-fearing catholics-- I am concerned about the "fathers" of the church who have added to and taken away from scripture. My heart aches for those blinded by "authoratative" churh teachings. but these are the facts...) to fund the building of St. Peter's cathedral. Jesus says no man comes to the father but through me, yet the catholic church teaches that we can buy forgiveness to loose our loved ones from the binds of Hell. This is NOT biblical. I feel burdoned that much of the world has been duped by the " customs of men". What better way for Satan to decieve than by twisting the truth just enough so as to muddy the waters of people trying to lead and understand the truths of christian life. Also- the bible teaches that we are mortal until christ comes back and we only become immortal at the second coming if we have accepted his gift of salvation. If we go straight to heaven or hell immediately upon our demise, doesn't this sound like we are already immortal? It just doesn't fit with what the bible teaches. From dust we were made and to dust we will return until our savior and redeemer returns. This is THE Gift--- that we may live and reign with him eternally when he returns to claim his sheep by accepting his uncomprehensible love and gift of salvation. I'll be happy to provide the verses that support this if you want. I'm on break right now and don't have a whole lot of time but felt really impressed to share what I've learned on this subject. The Holy Spirit begin working on me hard over the past year and I have decided to search the scriptures (as it is commanded us) and learn through the Holy Spirit what the bible says instead of just accepting what I've heard and been Taught in the past. It has been sad to realize that some of the things I was taught are not biblical. At the same time I have an earnest thirst for truth and knowledge that I have never experienced before. I just can't get enough of his word!! I so look forward to the time when all is resolved and we will live togehter in peace and harmony worshipping and praising the almighty creator!!
blindzebra
Sep 19 2005, 10:30 AM
yes!
all4lov! and LOV4ALL!! LOL
you are exaclty right, all4lov. i smiled the whole way through your post, my head nodding, in constant agreement. you are doing well...keep on doing the things you are doing!
it is God himself who is teaching his children....
and Jesus loves the little children!
my heart is SINGING!
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 10:54 AM
lov4all,
I have been in churches that say both at the same time:
1) My grandmother is waiting for me in heaven,
2) ...When the dead shall rise...in Easter morning services held graveside.
I think they just need to know their loved one is OK. If I am put in a position to explain my views, I explain and try to have scripture ready to back it up. There is never a contradiction, but they are all ready to go on to something else.
Hell is very real my friend, an I did not believe it myself once either. Too many scriptures that say it out plain and it is rational thought that tries to explain pure scripture away. It's a place where those who didn't choose to serve the Master will live without the benefits of His provisions. One of those provisions is a painless existance. Choice: my way now and pain later, or give myself up and get the benefits. Even Satan believes in Christ and that He is God's son. Giving yourself up is the thing.
The dead are not to rise until the trumpet sounds, and where we are in that timeline is what we all discuss daily. We look for signs to tell us. IS THAT ONE?
Lord, who knows. We're guessing. But God says to be watchful, so we are.
Biblically speaking, the living are not supposed to go before the dead. We can kind of put things on a timeline of sorts, but "when" we are on the line is debatable. We all think it's close 'cause things are dreadful.
Help us look.
Leia
blindzebra
Sep 19 2005, 11:22 AM
God said in Genesis: "In that day, you will positively DIE." (not:"Fry")
Satan said: "you POSITIVELY WILL NOT DIE."
Revelation speaks: "This means the SECOND DEATH, the lake of fire."
God say what he "means" plainly...the "lake of fire" MEANS the second DEATH."
'hell' is the grave. God is not unjust, nor is he a God of unrighteousness.
to obey is LIFE.
disobedience leads to DEATH.
we must choose.
and it is either eternal life, through Christ,
or eternal death, "an everlasting cutting-off".
why, it is against even man's law to inflict torture and pain on even the very worst of criminals! "cruel and unusual punishment!"
but the worst possible sentence, is death.
if one is alive, even in pain, one is still living.
but the second death? even DEATH is thrown into the lake of fire!
'death', cannot be burned. but "death" can be done away with, and completely destroyed. and "hades" the grave, can be done away with.
Fire is symbolic for utter destruction.
ashes is all that is left, and the thing is completely consumed.
for even any loving parent would never ever even consider boiling their children, or putting them in an oven, (hitler did that!)for any amount of disobedience...
but some have found the need to "cut them off" when things just get too too bad.
But God is the final authority. he holds the power of life and death.
and he has given the keys to hades to his SON.
do we need an IN-DEPTH study on the subject 'HELL' here?
lov4all, when you return, maybe you can share what you have found in your search for the truth, and from your studies....from the scriptures.
love,
bz
AppyGroove
Sep 19 2005, 11:38 AM
I read once that its believ(ed) in Jewish culture that the body is suppose to be intact when it dies (in order to go to heaven?) Its frowned upon to burn the body... That's why there was a lot of spiritual grief (aside from the obvious reasons of course) in the concentration camps when the germans burned the bodies....
Perhaps Jesus is trying to show the extreme sense of death (allegory) to his Jewish audience....
Honestly,
I struggle with the concept of Hell/Hades/Second death..... I have no doubts there the devil exists.....
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 12:17 PM
bz,
Please know that I "struggle with it" myself. I think an indepth study is a wise thing whenever there are questions, and since there is struggle in me, it would seem that is necessay for me to dig up all the scriptures once again. I have heard both to an extent that they both sound quite right at the time. Then you get to a point, if it matters to you, that you have to make some decission on what to believe or you can be led onto any "garden path".
When my father agreed to allow me to go to church, he had me go to them all. At least all that were in our little town. I studies with the Morman and the Witnesses, the Church of Christ and the Reorganized Church of Christ....there is alot of confusion on this point. It is not cut and dry. There alot of really good people who try and mean well but can not agree. Scripture is the only way. They say, I don't believe...and so do I. But can we back it up and come out with something?
I will look it up too. Help, bz? Do you know I love you?
Leia
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 12:46 PM
lov4all,
There is an interesting forum here on which translation to use, until it got rather heated of course. But that basic question seems to extremely important. I have found that the translations that I use (King James and Douay at present among others) are doing some pretty weird things with the word hell. Went back to original Hebrew and Greek to get the real meaning and learned some very interesting things. RESERVE YOUR QUESTION. I am considering I have been very misled by some mentors. Think I can prove it later in the original languages. Or at least it will be an interesting debate from the other side.
Pray for truth and guidance.
Leia
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 01:16 PM
bz,
I am going to start relearing slow and get feedback as I go. It's getting so even the study texts seem slanted in one direction or the other.
I'm gonna start with death itself. OK, try this on for size:
REGARDING SPIRIT
"You will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return. Gen 3:19
"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward: for the memory of them is forgotten. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest." Ecc 9:5, 10
"His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." Psalm 146:3, 4
"As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust" Ecc 3:19, 20
REGARDING SOUL
Using the original Hebrew and Greek words, becasue translations change them. But even the traslations who use "life" instead of "soul" margin that the original says soul.
Genesis 1:20 and 30 God created "living souls" to live in the waters and animals have "life as a soul."
"Every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea." Rev 16:3
"All those going down to the dust will bend down, and no one will ever preserve his own soul alive," Psm 22:29
Joshua 10:28-39 indeed has seven places where it says the soul is killed or destroyed.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but is this supporting that spirit is life force and soul is personality and both ceased upon death?
I need something imput before I can understand further.
Leia
blindzebra
Sep 19 2005, 01:18 PM
leia...of course i know you love me. and i know you know i love you right back!!..
very much!!
but that we love our heavenly Father, and honor him, that is what is of most importance. That is what is of most importance. That is the greatest and most important thing.
so, that is why it is important to really get to know what the truth of this matter is....
is God going to burn people forever and ever, in a fire of torment?
is that what hell is?
if it is NOT TRUE, then, it would be slanderous and scandalous to say these things about our heavenly Father...
it would be something that would not be true about him, or his character...it would misrepresent Him.
what is our motive to worship and serve God?
so this is a subject we should all discsuss together.
if i publicly stated that you burned your disobedient children with a cattle brand, and it was not true, you might not like me very much. you might even take me to court for slander. but what would your kids do and say if they heard such a thing spoken about you?
why do your children love you? or are they really afraid of you?
and what does it mean to "fear God"?
love,
bz
benny balerio
Sep 19 2005, 01:29 PM
QUOTE(simplebaby @ Apr 8 2005, 05:03 AM)
You made me laugh Sobez .
I was caught up in that story too as you told it .
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{smiling}...Yeh....that story has been around for years.
AppyGroove
Sep 19 2005, 01:31 PM
When Jesus came (a la the Gospels)... the disciples quickly discovered that things/idea/theology/etc. wasn't what they expected... (example: the messiah wasn't going to be a military person and overthrow Rome and restore physcially Jerusalem)
Another good example is in the Beatitudes.... whoa.... imagine how the population around him would have reacted when they heard it....
When Jesus comes again... I would imagine things will different than what we expected/anticipated as well....
blindzebra
Sep 19 2005, 01:37 PM
leia we were posting at the same moments...
yes....a good start...let us proceed, step by step, just as you say...this is fine.
it is the sprirt that is life-giving...the flesh, of itself, is of no use at all.
God's word is 'spirit-breathed'. or "inspired" by holy spirit. God's spirit is what makes the word of God "Alive".
regarding the creation of man, God blew into his nostrils, the breath of life, and man became "a living soul." breathing in the air, inspiring, and inhaling, we continue to live...if we stop breathing, we soon die. we 'expire'.
but there is also a "spirit of the ruler of the air" that operates in the sons of disobedience... God has air-waves...
and the ruler of this world uses 'air-waves' too.
i hate the wicked devil. he is the original liar. and the father of the lie.
But God's word is Truth. and the words that Jesus spoke are "spirit and truth".
love,
bz
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 02:26 PM
bz,
OK let's stop. I though that was two different things.
1)the Spirit
2)the spirit
1) the Holy Spirit is, of course, part of what we call God adn would never die
but
2)the Bible says our spirit, or energy given from God, goes out and we go back to the dust we were formed from and our thoughts do perish Genesis 3:19 and
Psalm 146:3,4
So we die. Spirit or life force is gone.
Says the same about the soul. That we are no better than the beast in that regard, the soul dies as well. Gen 20, 30 and Rev. 16:3
LET US GO ON (deep breath. And furthermore, if I find out they have been telling me the wrong thing, well, better that a milstone and all that, though no damage has been done and I have not been brought to sin over it)
So what is hell?
I know God is love 1 John: 4:8 (my daughter is NOT love - she won't share her
frosted animal cookies!)
BUT I couldn't burn an entire city or some of the other things that God saw the need to do (animals and kids too) so.....we move on.....
hell is the word used for the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades.
The Hebrew work Sheol adn the Greek word Hades mean the same thing and we call that hell.
King James translates sheol 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave and 3 times as pit.
Same original word. So...to KJV hell, grave and pit are interchangable at will?
How can grave be the ground and firey burny place mean the same thing?
Houston, we have a problem with the KJV and hell.
Jesus was in Hades or hell. I am sure God did not have him in hell or we all are doomed...must have ment the grave.
When Jacob want to go to Sheol....don't think he wanted to be burned. Strike two against the firey place.
Job prayed for Sheol....you think HE wanted to go burn. I say no. Strike three.
Jonah said "Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me. Out of the belly of Sheol (hell in the KJV adn the Douay) I have cried for help. You heard my voice." Jonah got out of hell. Study no further. Strike 4.
Hades (same as Sheol) will be emptied of all its dead. Rev 20:13 Hades gives up its dead and then they are judged. So Sheol and Hades mean grave, not the burny place and while we are in the grave, we are basiclly nothing.
If you agree up to this point, we will go on to references on hellfire and lake of fire. Am I on track so far? Don't let me be an idiot, 900 have read this so far...
Leia
blindzebra
Sep 19 2005, 03:43 PM
"If you agree up to this point, we will go on to references on hellfire and lake of fire. Am I on track so far? Don't let me be an idiot, 900 have read this so far..."
Leia
LOL i laughed out loud at that last sentence! i love your fun sense of humor....LOL LOL
ok....we are agreed up to this point about "hell" (sheol and hades)...very good homework Leia! (and you took the time out to call New Jersey too!? you are a dear! what a dear!)
'spirit' is a different subject. there is spirit that is "holy" and there is also a spirit that is not...and angels are referred to as "spirits"
AND GOD HIMSELF IS A SPIRIT.
ok....sister you're doin good!...what next?
LOL ... let us be careful... after all, 900 more will read this! LOL
(and you are certainly Not an idiot.)
love you Leia,
bz
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 03:59 PM
bz,
I think I'll stick to the Douay version for awhile. Might be a tougher read and I might change my mind later (getting kind of punchy now) but I will.
So...a teacher was having a class on different religions adn told the class to bring in their religious articles. The next day, Hiram stands up and says, "I'm Hiram, I'm Jewish adn this is a Manorah." Another boy stands up, "Hi, I'm Jose, I'm Catholic and this is a Crucifix." Another boy stands up, "Hi, I'm Joey, I'm Baptist and this is a casserole."
My preacher said to start with a joke.
KJV speaks of hell fire and being cast into hell and into a fire that will never be quenched. Mathew 5:22 and Mark 9:45
KJV also uses the word hell for the word unsed in the original scriptures here which is gehenna. (Maybe it is there we get the confusion of hell fire with death - grave equals hell and gehenna as lake of fire equals hell so grave equals lake of fire. I'd cuss but that would be wrong.
gehenna, it would seem, simply made reference to a place outside the city wall used as a trach dump in Jesus' day, though it was used for child sacrifices before that. Rev. says that death and hades (termination of life and having to go to the grave; mine) were hurled into the lake of fire or gehenna. This is the second death from which there is no resurrection. My question is, how can a concept or verb be thrown into a place?
They can't be burned but can be distroyed. Gone forever. and the people that Jesus was talking to would have known the allegory becasue the used the dump all the time and knew what all consumed ment. AND they used sulfer (brinmstone) to keep it burning so all the dead animals from the city and the garbage would keep burning.
I must go to soccor practice and think. Because now I am really confused. What about the referneces to gnashing of teeth and what about the scripture in the last part of Revelation that mentions every blessed Godly soul inside the city and the city gates shut up tight so that those OUTSIDE THE CITY could not come in?
I will take my Bible to Lydia's practice as usual.....
Leia
Leia
Sep 19 2005, 09:19 PM
bz,
OK, after much careful consideration and after getting over the desire to just simply JUMP into that hole to hell, I agree that hell has been interpreted from the word grave adn there is no "hell" associated to time of death.
But I have a real problem denying the lake of fire after the 1000 year rein of the annointed.
Timeline:
1) big war, beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire (a place)
2) satan thrown into the abyss, not the lake of fire
3) Jesus calls his first children, the 144,000
2) they rule with Him for 1000 years
3) satan is unchained to roam the earth again
4) the last war of Gog and Magog takes place)
5) God wins and satan is put into the lake of fire where the beast and false
prophet have been
6) the rest of the people are taken from the graves and the oceans
7) believers still on earth are taken up (because Timothy says the living will surely
not go before the dead and the dead don't go until after the Gog-Magog war
8) judgement takes place. Those without the mark of the Father get thrown into
the lake of fire that burns continually day and night forever.
Mathew 8:12 say the same fate awaits them a place to be thrown into where well, lets just read it: "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say toyou that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation puts it that it will be torment day and night never ending. Rev 20:10 for satan to be thrown in where the other two await him, and Rev 20:11-15 for the rest of humanity to be thrown in with him. That is the second death.
Now, I am so willing to believe that it means distroyed forever without a trace like gehenna, but what about the description of it as and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever? Rev 20:10 Then humans are thrown into "the same lake" which means tormented day and night?
I'm going to bed. I was so ready not to know that. Convince me bz. It would be so great.
Leia
Marta
Sep 19 2005, 09:36 PM
I haven't read any of these replies......BUT, when I am convinced HELL IS REAL! One verse really speaks to me about this:
Walking in the Spirit vs walking in the Flesh. The more I read my Bible and stay in the WORD the more that I see the flesh more clearly than ever. No joke, it is very real....the spiritual world and hell.
"...Ye MUST be born again" John 3:7 KJV
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
(John 3:5-6 KJV)
THE WAR WITHIN: FLESH vs. SPIRIT
(Galatians 5:16-18)
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.
Tomcat
Sep 20 2005, 12:26 AM
QUOTE(Leia @ Sep 19 2005, 09:19 PM)
bz,
OK, after much careful consideration and after getting over the desire to just simply JUMP into that hole to hell, I agree that hell has been interpreted from the word grave adn there is no "hell" associated to time of death.
But I have a real problem denying the lake of fire after the 1000 year rein of the annointed.
Timeline:
1) big war, beast and false prophet thrown into lake of fire (a place)
2) satan thrown into the abyss, not the lake of fire
3) Jesus calls his first children, the 144,000
2) they rule with Him for 1000 years
3) satan is unchained to roam the earth again
4) the last war of Gog and Magog takes place)
5) God wins and satan is put into the lake of fire where the beast and false
prophet have been
6) the rest of the people are taken from the graves and the oceans
7) believers still on earth are taken up (because Timothy says the living will surely
not go before the dead and the dead don't go until after the Gog-Magog war
8) judgement takes place. Those without the mark of the Father get thrown into
the lake of fire that burns continually day and night forever.
Mathew 8:12 say the same fate awaits them a place to be thrown into where well, lets just read it: "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say toyou that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation puts it that it will be torment day and night never ending. Rev 20:10 for satan to be thrown in where the other two await him, and Rev 20:11-15 for the rest of humanity to be thrown in with him. That is the second death.
Now, I am so willing to believe that it means distroyed forever without a trace like gehenna, but what about the description of it as and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever? Rev 20:10 Then humans are thrown into "the same lake" which means tormented day and night?
I'm going to bed. I was so ready not to know that. Convince me bz. It would be so great.
Leia
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Greetings Leia. BZ, Marta, etc...
It's good to see the body 'Come reason one with another' ...
I was raised Roman Catholic but didn't know Jesus until I was 25. Upon reading the Bible God quickly showed me the error in their doctrine and in a short time I
left that church. Of course they have three places after death. Heaven, Purgatory,
and Hell. God quickly showed me that purgatory was made up so that left heaven and hell. I have heard other churches..ie. Jehovah's Witnesses that don't believe
in eternal painful torment in Hell. Of course they also say that only 144,000 are
getting into heaven.
As usual, before posting, I like to go somewhere (usually the park) to pray and
seek God in his Word. I sure don't have all the answers but the Word does.
Today a couple of scriptures were brought to my attention. I hope they will help.
Also, I should first say that I am convinced that the lake of fire is a continual
eternal place of pain, suffering and torment. A righteous judgment for all
unrepented of sin. The same sin and evil that put our Holy Savior on the tree.
As far as God having the ability to have something on fire without it being con-
sumed into nothingness we can look at
Exodus 3:2..and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.
In Mat. 23:14 when Jesus was lambasting the scribes and Pharisees he pronunced
the judgment that they would receive the "greater damnation(condemnation)"
Now if the Lake of fire just burned up everything into oblivion then how can one
condemnation be worse than another?
You Leia already quoted one of the scriptures that I had written down while at the
park for this post. The KJV says it a little differently but doesn't change the gist
of it.
Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false profit [are], and *shall be tormented day
and night for ever and ever*.
The KJV use the word *are* and your version reads *have been*. Either way
they *are* or *have been* there and that means their substance is still there. They didn't get burned up to nothingness.
That is pretty plain and simple.
If you read the account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31
verse 23..And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments(pain),
verse 24..for I am tormented(suffering) in this flame.
It's human reasoning to think that a Loving God wouldn't have such a place.
Remember that the enemy is sin and death and everything that is contrary to
LOVE which is God.
The day Adam sinned he died. He remained alive but was dead. When we die
our bodies return to the dust but our spirit lives on. Like Lazarus and the rich
man one spirit goes one direction and another goes in another direction.
Lastly..
John 5:29 And some shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of
damnation(judgment).
If the judgment for evil is to just vanish forever then why have a resurrection?
It seems to me that just as there are varried levels, crowns, and rewards for
the good..There are varried levels of pain and torment for the evil. The greater
damnation. In any event there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I am convinced that ANY doctrine concerning his judgment that takes away from the FEAR (FRIGHT) or (REVERENCE) of God is not of God.
Behold the Goodness and Severity of God..Romans 11:22
I look forward to reading more of what you guys find in his Word.
Oh yeah... BZ..I don't know if Leia knows that you love her so maybe you should
tell her a couple more times.
Love and Peace, Tom
blindzebra
Sep 20 2005, 07:30 AM
is this subject, of hell-fire, tormenting some of you?
is it causing some of you to feel anguish?
"the lake of fire..."
"tormented day and night forever and ever."
ok, Leia. you have done such wonderful research already, and my hat is off to you....please do continue with me on this...let us continue!
"Gehenna" ...yes, this word is unique, and it was an actual place OUTSIDE THE CITY GATES....where the carcasses of animals and dead bodies of criminals and all the garbage was thrown, to be consumed by burning...and you are right that they added sulpher to keep the flames hot to totally burn up all that was thrown there....(not like our land-fill garbage dumps today)....they burned their "garbage" and "trash" and filth.
but never were living bodies of persons thrown in.
gehenna was a very good illustration used by Jesus ....well understood by his listeners....they knew what it meant.
for when a man died, he wanted to be given a proper burial and a "memorial tomb"....in hopes of being REMEMBERED....Memorial! For God to remember him.
Like Job appealed to God to die, but that God would "appoint a day to REMEMBER me"......(and God has appointed just such a day.) Jesus said, in fact the hour is coming and it is now, that all those in the MEMORIAL TOMBS will hear his VOICE and come out....some to a resurrection of life and some to a resurrection of Judgment.
but if a man was wicked, back then, a criminal, his dead body was thrown into gehenna and was not given a "memorial tomb".....they wanted the very NAME of the wicked man to be forgotten....to BLOT IT OUT of all memory and record....so that even his very NAME should be forgotten...(what's in a 'name'?
--our reputation--
what we stand for and represent....see Proverbs 22:1 and also Ecclesiastes 7:1)
ok...so, 'gehenna' represents a
total destruction...of even the very
MEMORY of such a wicked one.
(men do alot of things, to make a NAME
for themselves....to be "somebody GREAT")
moving on....what about the word "Torment"?
please look up-- in a KJV-- or even several of many others,
the scirptures found at Matthew chapter 18:21-35. you will see that word in those verses....
Question....what would be a "tormenter" in our modern language usage?
(a big help in found in verse 30, to make it clear what is being spoken of)
the demons asked Jesus: "You have not come to TORMENT us, have you?"
what were they afraid of? (they had, up till that point, the freedom to do as they pleased)
so, how do you read, Leia?
love ya, mean it,
bz
blindzebra
Sep 20 2005, 07:42 AM
SIDE NOTES: yes too, LEIA! you brought out a very very good point about WHAT the valley of Gehenna USED to be used for, before it was a garbage dump, a place for refuse.
would you please bring that out a little more too?
WHAT REALLY LITERRRALLY WENT ON IN THAT PLACE BEFORE???
what really happend in that place, somthing so HORRIBLE, that it was so DESPISED, that they turned that place into a filty DUMP?
(and you KNOW how important cleanliness was to the Jews....could they have made a place more 'corrupt' that THAT place?)
this is very important to know...
let us just say this....it must have been VERY VERY BAD.
**********
to tom: tell me, please, using scripture alone,
two things:
1. what does it mean to fear God? what IS the FEAR OF GOD, according to what is written?
and
2. what are the wages of sin?
(but the rich man and lazarus we need to save for later.....but let us take one thing at the time, please....to avoid confusion.)
love you tom, too.
bz
Libby
Sep 20 2005, 08:27 AM
Great research going on! I love that, too, as Tom mentioned 'reasoning together'.
Some years ago I read the book "Four Views of Hell" - I think that was the name of it. And it had four different articles regarding hell. The one thing the authors all agreed on was that the "fire" of hell [actually of gehenna] is not literal fire but is figurative or symbolic of something. The proof would be that literal fire would not do anything to a spirit creature, right?
Perhaps it is symbolic for the place of continuing pain Tom described. Or, my opinion would be that it means annihilation, for I can't imagine anything surviving a lake of fire. To keep someone in continuing pain, God will have to keep them ALIVE, so then death is actually taken out of the picture and everybody, including the devil, gets everlasting life - some in bliss and others in torture. ???
But Zeeb makes a good point that the wages of sin is death, not torture. And death is the cessation of life, not continuing to live in torment.
Love, Libby
Leia
Sep 20 2005, 08:54 AM
Libby,
I love you....
What about the torment forever and ever part?
It is in there, in the Scriptures. And I can't understand it either, but is it for me to decide. I am trying very hard to be convinced because it would be so much easier to know my erring kinfolk will simply be gone. But that is not what it says and I am also quite sure that God does not enjoy my putting what I think it should be because I can't understand it above how He said it shall be.
Come on, girl. Help. Give me scripture that refutes and they will be thrown into the same place and "torment day and night forever and ever." Take that away from me, I beg you!
Leia
blindzebra
Sep 20 2005, 09:00 AM
Leia,
please go back a page, to posts #39 and 40....(did you miss these?)
you need to look at the scriptures....you are on track....then come back.
love ya,
bz
Leia
Sep 20 2005, 09:45 AM
bz,
ya, I missed those. I am sorry bz, I really havn't learn to move around in this thing very well yet. I miss alot and have to rescan alot because I am learning...
kind of yutzy...
Child scrafice after the idols of baal. The first born was normally a "throw away" from time beginning. The first born was usually cemented into the first part of the house to bring good luck to the inhabitants or given to the fires of baal outside the main tent, set up yearly around our christmas time and used as a place for the orgy, so that baal would remember his wife, come back to her bed and they would get the benefits of his heat for a while longer. Worked every year, too....
The next day, if everyone had given, there wuld be a little tree of baal (undoubtably planted during the night by the priests) at the foot of the altar of baal. That tree was grown until the next time baal left, one year later, and was used to start the next sacrafice fire in front of the reset up orgy tent.
How's THAT for research! Lord Almighty what You have out up with. And we think we are so bad and things have gotten so much worse! Abortion (killing innocents) isn't new.
Later, when they wanted the colonies to grow, they stopped that and just jumped through the fire which held some other significance. Guess that is when Jesus came. Or maybe they repented, because they began to think what they had done was terrible...such a drastic change of heart.
ANYWAY, let's say, for the sake of argument Jesus was talking about gehenna adn the place outside the city. Torment is still an active, not passive verb. Where they are being (going on at this time, right now, an action in progress) and will forever be (still going on, an action that will continue for them) day in and day out, forever and ever. That means they, themselves are forever and ever, doesn't it? It will go on pretaining to them so they are going on pretaining to it?
Leia
blindzebra
Sep 20 2005, 10:05 AM
so, child sacrifice, in the fire, and then making sons and daughters pass through the fire....literal.
what did God think of such things? please see Jeremiah 32:35.
they were literally burning their children....
did that thought even come to the mind of God?
TORMENT.....
what can this word mean as used in scripture?
Please see Matthew 18:30 and 34 (and around.)
what was a "tormentor"???? and what do we call them today?
ps...your research is even more in depth than mine! and i learn from you too!
blindzebra
Sep 20 2005, 10:59 AM
heeey Juuude....
everlasting fire? ok....lets look at Jude 7...
compare Luke 17: 29, 30. (note the word "destruction")
where is sodom today? is it still burning in an everlasting fire?
no, but it was everlastingly destroyed.
nothin but salt there....the whole region is called the DEAD SEA.
for nothing can live there, to this very day.
blindzebra
Sep 20 2005, 11:04 AM
But the scirpture itself is self-explaining....
it is SELF EVIDENT.
THIS MEANS THE SECOND DEATH....the lake of fire.
what does the Lake of Fire MEAN? the second death.
compare Jude 12...."having died TWICE, UPROOTED"....
blindzebra
Sep 20 2005, 11:08 AM
they are "locked up in death", and the 'key' is thrown away!
an eternal prison bond....of death.
now THAT is what i consider to be horrifying...
and to know that that is what is coming....
THAT is what is scary...and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Leia
Sep 20 2005, 11:43 AM
bz,
not a flash of lightening but a slow awakening....
I think we are saying sort of the same thing, only wouldn't that be embarrassing after all this...
torment to me IS seperation....weeping and gnashing I, for one, would do
while I believe Sodom was just a symbol (temporary reality) that shadowed the perment torment which is seperation. Can we change that would between us? You other 899 can disagree if you want to, so there...wait....
Let's call "torment", seperation. is that alright? Anyway Sodom is temperal shadowing eternal just as sacrafices were temperal shadowing Jesus the permanent....
everlasting darkness and gloom, knowledge of God. This is gehenna? This is hell and the lake of fire (gehenna)?
So....let's walk me through this.
We are resurrected whenever it is
We get our new bodies what they are
We are judged and sent to where hevean and the place of seperation is
Forever.
That's it?
Oh, Lord.....Eyes to see. I was thinking when I started and realized I NEVER have my reading glasses with me. If I am here, they are there.
"Please Lord, let me have more glasses".
"You just need eyes to see."
And then the wave of ....awful.
They will know it forever......
That is too terrible
Leia
Libby
Sep 20 2005, 06:58 PM
QUOTE(Leia @ Sep 20 2005, 06:54 AM)
Libby,
I love you....
What about the torment forever and ever part?
It is in there, in the Scriptures. And I can't understand it either, but is it for me to decide. I am trying very hard to be convinced because it would be so much easier to know my erring kinfolk will simply be gone. But that is not what it says and I am also quite sure that God does not enjoy my putting what I think it should be because I can't understand it above how He said it shall be.
Come on, girl. Help. Give me scripture that refutes and they will be thrown into the same place and "torment day and night forever and ever." Take that away from me, I beg you!
Leia
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Hi sweet Leia, I love you, too! and I love being here.
One thing I see is that Rev 20:10 is talking about the devil being thrown into the lake of burning sulfur [NIV] where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown [also NIV][Nestle's Greek interlinear has "where were the beast and false prophet".] They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Any people in this place at this point? If they are, they aren't mentioned here, just the devil who we know is a spirit creature, fallen angel could be used, I guess; and the beast, who is this? and the false prophet? are these humans?
Well, the NIV has references for the beast which takes me back to Rev 13:1 to the beast out of the sea. Is this a human? And the false prophet, is it the same as the beast coming out of the earth in Rev 13:11? Rev 16:13 seems to tie them in as the same 'entity'.
Now, in Rev 14:11 we're told that "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
We would probably agree that these are humans. Have they died? Have they been thrown into the lake of fire? I'm thinking, No. I'm thinking they're still alive on earth and it is on these that the seven bowls of God's wrath is poured out beginning in Rev 16:2.
When the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire [Rev 19:20], it says of the humans who were with them 21 "The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."
It is similar with those whom Satan gathers together in Rev 20:7 because in 20:9 it says fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
So, really, by the time we get through the 1,000 years, Satan's release, and the white throne judgment, so far, have any humans been thrown into the lake of fire yet?
Now we come to the part where humans are thrown into the lake of fire. 20:15 "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." These are spoken of again in Rev 21:8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars---their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
It doesn't say they are tormented forever and ever. Why do we assume they are? In Mt. 10:28 we are told: "And do not fear the [ones] killing the body, but the soul not being able to kill; but fear ye rather the [one] being able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." (Nestle's)
The NIV footnote for the Lake of Fire in Rev 19:20 says this: "Although the designation
gehenna is not used here, this is what John refers to.....Originally the site of a cultic shine where human sacrifices were offered [2Ki.16:3; 23:10; Jer. 7:31), it came to be equated with the 'hell' of final judgment in apocalyptic literature."
Okay, Leia, hope you like long posts.
Love, Libby
Leia
Sep 20 2005, 10:20 PM
Libby,
I agree with the beast and the false prophet part entirely. It very well may be there are not people at all but entities. In that case, being thrown into an eternal lake of fire would make no sense and would have to be figurative.
I have long since toyed with the idea of a Muslim centered UN being the false prophet, Where the beast (the League of Nations) was given to the false prophet (United Nations) when the beast stepped down and was replaced by the false prophet. But the false prophet (UN) does nothing without the authority of the beast (Leagues members now coordinating the UN).
Thanks. It is going to take some time to apply the notion of torment being knowledge of seperation rather than buring in damnation. It seems very real, like the other was a kids story I was trying real hard to believe. I always did believe God could never do that. But I met the dogma half way by figuring it wouldn't be God doing it, He just wouldn't be preventing it! Nice to know it just doesn't happen at all....
Leia
