Hi guys! Looks like ya'll have been having a great disscussion while I've been gone! I'm only online Mon., Wed., and Fri. (usually) I'm going to try and catch up and add my two sense worth ...
Leia & BZ - it sounds like ya'll are doing some great studying!! And everyone else too. First my take on "tormented day and night forever and ever" To back up for a minute, I believe "Hell" is the utter separation from God. Or more specifically, His separation from us. This is why Jesus was "in Hell". He was carrying the weight of every single "little" or "big" sin (to God they're all the same) of every single person who ever had and ever would live. It was as if he himself had committed those billions of sins. The Father, who is love and goodness personified, turn his prescence away from his son. He separated himself from Jesus, thus Jesus was "in hell". Along the same thinking, "tormented day and night forever and ever" means "separated day and night..." .The forever and ever part means that this judgement is final. This will be the end of sin forever and ever. There is no longer a chance to repent and be forgiven.
As to the story of the rich man and Lazurus- this was a parable. I struggled with this one a while back too. I was led to a verse in Matthew that states that Jesus ALWAYS taught the people in parables. This was to make things easier for them to understand. This was not an actual account, but rather an example to help the people understand certain principles better.
I know this is kind of long but I want to mention one other thing. Regarding the "soul" - I think of it like this: If I get some wood and some nails, I have just some wood and some nails. BUT, I can put them together in such a way as to create a box. Therefore, boards + nails = box. Likewise, God took dirt and added breathe. He "made" a living soul. Therefore, dirt + Breathe of life = soul. Each breathe we take is a gift from God. When we cease to breathe, we cease to be a "soul". Many theologies have bought into the idea of a "supernatural soul" that goes on after our bodies die but I have found no biblical evidence to support this. If this were the case, doesn't that in actuallity suggest immortality? It's one of Satan's clever deceptions to perert the truth "just a little" and cloud truth and untruth. One more fun thing to think about... Remember when Jesus raised Lazurus? Notice he spoke, "Lazarus, come forth!" I believe that had he not specified who it was that was to come forth from the grave, because of his awesome power, all of the graves would have opened and all of the dead ("asleep") would have come forth. Also, Jesus waited and tarried until lazurus had been dead long enogh to stink so that there was no doubt that he was raised from the dead. Pretty neat, hunh? Again, I apologize for this being so long! I get so excited when I'm here. I, too, love the discussions and the "reasoning one with another" May the holy spirit guide us all to a more in-depth understanding of his inspired word! Especially in these days- - how does that verse go?.... When you see the fig tree start to bud... or something like that...

Oh yeah-- I can't take credit for the "wood & nails" analogy. I heard it somewhere else and really felt it cleared things up in a mini- parable kind of way. And my take on the lake of fire - I believe that the fire from heaven is different from fire on earth. It will be an all consuming, cleansing, purifying fire. Not unlike the fire God sent to accept Elijah's sacrifice. Remember how those that worship Baal did all they could think of until finally Elijah stopped them? (He said Their God's must have been asleep or something ) But Elijah had a moat dug around the altar that he built and had it filled with water and had them douse the sacrifice and alter with much, much (12 buckets maybe?) water as well. Yet Gods fire came out of heaven and consumed it all. His Fire definitely has properties we can't fully concieve. The fire at the end of time is not punishment, per se. Rather the punishment is separation from God. Eternally. Forever and ever. No chance of forgiveness and reconcilliation. This is "Hell". The fire is to purify this world and universe of sin and the effects of sin. Forever. Eternally. YOu might say it's God's way of rectifying and fixing all the problems created by Satan. Personally, I can't wait for that day!!! Can you imagine- - no more anything bad - -only love, peace praise, companionship... I can't wait to beocme one of his priests. BZ- -that's something I've learned! That all those saved out of this world of sin will be "the priests of God". What an honor. It overwhelms me when I think of just how much God loves us and the wonderful gifts he's just waiting to bestow upon us even though we are what we are. I can't even begin to understand this kind of Love and grace but I thank God daily for it and for the gift and sacrifice of his son through which all of this is possible and for them gift of the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us so that we can grow closer to him daily!!!! Hallelujah!! (Can you tell I get excited about this?

Hi Leia and Lov4all,

Tell me more about this final punishment hell that is separation from God. Where would that be? Even where the Bible talks about humans who are tormented day and night, it's IN THE PRESENCE of Jesus and the angels --Rev 14:10. [and this is while on earth before death and resurrection and judgment and all that].

After the final judgment, are the unsaved still alive somewhere but without access to God? Is that what you're saying? So we all are immortal anyway -- say, what?

I don't get it. Life is being alive, conscious [most of the time ] and death is dead, not conscious any of the time. Jesus rightly likened it to sleep [John 11] and when his disciples misunderstood and thought he meant real sleep that Lazarus would wake up from, Jesus plainly told them the sleep he meant was death. And didn't Jesus say God would destroy both body and soul in gehenna? [the final lake of fire punishment place]

Love, Libby

Guys....

WE ALL KNOW that Hell is a superhangover while......

A) Sitting through a business meeting and you need to pee REAL bad
Taking a 8 AM class mid term test with a infinite number of questions (not multiple choice)
C) Being in checkout line at the Walmart BETWEEN two sets of screaming, snotty nose, wailing toddlers.....

FOR.....EVVV.....EEERRRRR......(anyone seen that movie the Sandlot lol )


I agree that this is an excellent study....

We have investigated terminology: hell/grave/death/sheoul/hades/etc...
We have pondered the thoughts of: fire/trash dump on the edge of town/death final/seperation from God as Hell...

If in Hell of eternal fire-
Would burn like the fellers in the furnace like Daniel (except it would and it just suck forever...)
or
Be burnt like the wheat analogies?


We could go on forever...... If hell was a final death.... who cares if you go to heaven, right? I mean, you're dead....... It makes heaven to be a bonus..... slippery, slippery, slippery... (that would eventually provoke people to "what's it matter")

Lets set our eyes on Heaven.... If we believe, and know, that's where we are going......

(heaven, btw, is good greasy sweet food that won't clog your arteries....kidding i don't know )

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Seems to say here that even hell is done away with.

Whosoever,

Great Point!

Appy,

Good greasy sweet food is heaven? I take back my dinner offer.
Really, though, what would be the incentive? Would be rather nice, to think my brother is just not going to be rather than seperated and knowing forever.

You know, I never really even worried to much about this. I figure, I am going to do what the Lord tells me to do when He tells me to do it for as long as He tells me to do it. I am going to treat others the way I want to be treated and love them and help them without distroying something else along the way (give alla your money to the poor and my children are now impoverished). When I am confused I go to Him and He helps me like He promised He would. I pray He tells me loud and clear because I sometimes am pretty dense. I witness to dozens of people I come into contact with every day whether they want to hear it or not and usually in such a way they don't have time to do anything but know 1) there is a saving Lord and 2)they need to know Him so they can be in "the good place" And then I pray for forgiveness for being such an idiot sometimes. After that, tell me, should I care about hell? Do I have to preach damnation? Isn't the realization that we are who we are and He is who He is and He can make us "whiter than snow" and happy forever enough?

Leia

Amen! Leia! You sure can't go wrong with that!!

Love, Libby

Cool pics Libby!!! Shekel...............we need some more PICTURES......let's all send him cash to support the forum! I know...we should have a virtual church...with Shekel teaching us all the codes too! We could meet once a week? Log in...wouldn't that be cool??



LET'S DO IT!!! VIRTUAL CHURCH AND THE CODES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE]After the final judgment, are the unsaved still alive somewhere but without access to God? Is that what you're saying? So we all are immortal anyway -- say, what?

I don't get it. Life is being alive, conscious [most of the time ] and death is dead, not conscious any of the time. Jesus rightly likened it to sleep [John 11] and when his disciples misunderstood and thought he meant real sleep that Lazarus would wake up from, Jesus plainly told them the sleep he meant was death. And didn't Jesus say God would destroy both body and soul in gehenna? [the final lake of fire punishment place]

Hi! I guess I wasn't too clear. I DONT believe the unsaved are still alive after the second judgement. They are consumed in the fire from heaven along with "Hell" being consumed. (Thanks Whosoever!!)
I, too, prefer to 'set my eyes on heaven' but I do think an accurate understanding of the state of the dead is important. Not something I want to dwell on too much though. It makes me very sad to think of all the people who choose not to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and will be fated to find out first hand what Hell is. I just look forward anxiously and excitedly to a time when everything bad is done away with!! Hope we didn't confuse you, Libby.

Maybe you guys can help me------ I don't know how to insert a quote from a previous posting and make it separate itself in the little blue box. What am I doing wrong??? I've only got basic computer skills.... sorry

Ya.....

I can use the "quote" button, but I get everything, not just the part I want so I can take it out of context....sorry..... But I mean it. How do you edit down?

Leia in the basics too

using ADD REPLY

just cut and paste the thought you are quoting into the text box....

higlight the quote

and then hit the quote button...

to top it off, write who you are quoting....

such as...

AppyGroove said:




IMO, I believe he ain't the brightest crayon in the box....



where, were we? Oh yeah, hell.......

(discussing it more precisely... )

[QUOTE]QUOTE
That fella Appy is a few bricks shy of a load....



I hope this works..... thanks so much.......... and I would have to disagree with the above quote

Or maybe I'm just a few more bricks shy....

Hope everyone has a great weekend... see ya'll soon

Hi lov4all,

I guess I'm going to have to be a little more interested in the lake of fire . According to Fisher and Tomcat, that's where I'm going as an adulterer if I don't divorce my present husband and live single until my first husband dies. Then I'm free to remarry.

Is this what other Christians are doing? How is it working for them?

Love, Libby

ps as to the quote thing I hit the "Reply button at the bottom right of the post I want to quote. I can edit inside the quote in my reply to keep just the parts I want. I don't know how to quote two different posters in the same reply though.

LIBBY
I'LL HOLD YOUR HAND BECAUSE THEY THINK I WILL BE THERE TO.
I'M GLAD GOD WILL JUDGE ME AND NOT THEM.

I WONDER IF A WOMAN IS RAPE IS SHE SUPPOSE TO GET MARRIED TO RAPIST SO SHE DOES NOT SIN.

THE HUSBAND THAT MOLESTED ONE OF YOUR CHILDERN IT'S OK IF YOU DIVORCE HIM BUT YOU STILL MUST HONOR HIM BY KEPTING HIS NAME AND IF I GET REMARRIED IT HAS TO BE TO HIM. WOW WONDER WHAT THAT CHILD THINK IF YOU REMARRIED.

ASK GOD TO GUIDE YOU BECAUSE CHRISTAINS CAN BE THE WORST JUDGES. GO TO 1 CORINTHIANS 7:12-16 AND READ.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WE CANT GET PEOPLE TO LISTERN TO US AND WE TRY TO GET THEM TO BECAUSE WE ARE PREFECT AND NO ONE ELSE.
IT'S OK TO VOICE WHAT WE BELIVE BUT YOU THEN GO ON. NOT HERE BECAUSE SOME WANTS TO BE GOD AND JUDGE US.
I'LL SAY AGAIN UNTIL YOU HAVE WALK IN MY SHOES DONT JUDGE ME. JUDGE YOURSELF.
I KNOW THAT I KNOW I'M FORGIVEN AND AMEN.
KIM

You notice, again, it's the girls?

I was distressed, called my dad in California who informed me my ex had died many years ago. In his line of work, he was an accident waiting to happen.

But I am not relieved. I am sad. Very sad. Life going out is awful and I don't feel an holier for it.

Leia

From the American Std. Version:

From the English Std. Version:

Hi Kim48,

I just noticed something, Paul is telling them something on his own that isn't from Jesus -- he can do that? Does that mean they can obey or not, their choice?

And what does that mean that if the unbeliever leaves, the believer is not "under bondage" "is not enslaved"

Kimmy, I feel forgiven, too, that's the hard part. Deep in my heart I feel I'd be going against God to divorce my husband. And although both Fisher and Tomcat are adamant that there is no allowance for divorce whatsoever, they do allow a divorce in this case, DEMAND it, in fact, otherwise it's the lake of fire.

Love, Libby

HERE IN VERSE 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved.
WHEN YOU GET MARRIED YOU ARE IN BONDAGE AND YOU ARE ENSLAVED TO YOUR SPOUSE. IF AND IF THE PERSON IS NOT SAVED AND THEIR IS A DIVORCE THAN YOU ARE NOT EVSLAVED ANY MORE. THAT MEANS WE ARE FREE. NOT IN BONDAGE MEANS FREE.

I FEEL IF BOTH ARE CHRISTAINS EACH ONE WILL DO WHAT EVER IT TAKE TO KEPT THE MARRIAGE TOGETHER. IF ONE IS NOT SAVED THAT IS WHERE YOU CAN RUN INTO ABUSE OF EVERY KIND. AT THAT POINT WE ARE NOT TO BE THEIR SLAVE ANY MORE. WE ARE FREE AND WHEN WE ARE FREE THEN WE CHOOSE FOR OURSELF NOT THE FORMER SPOUSE. AT THAT POINT WE CAN REMARRY OR STAY SINGLE BECAUSE WE ARE FREE!!!!!!

WHEN TOPIC FIRST CAME UP I THOUGHT OH NO WHAT IF. I CRIED AND I PRAYED FOR THREE DAYS. ON THE 3ND DAY A VOICE SAID TO ME "MY CHILD YOUR SINS ARE AS FAR AWAY AS THE EAST IS FROM THE WEST"! NEVER HAVE I HEARD THE VOICE BEFORE. IT WAS THE SWEETEST VOICE I HAVE EVER HEARD.

I HOPE NO ONE COME ON AND TRIES TO CONTRADICT WHAT I HEARD IN MY LIVING ROOM.
I PRAY THAT WE QUIT JUDGING OTHERS HERE. WE CAN VOICE OUR OPINIONS BUT STOP JUDGING. LET GOD DO THE JUDGING.
PULL THE PLANK OUT OF YOUR EYES. LET US GET ON WITH SALVATION NOT THE UNFORGIVEABLE SIN THAT WAS NOT MENTION IN THE BIBLE.
I'M FORGIVEN. SO ARE YOU LIBBY AND DONT LET ANYONE TAKE THE BLESSING AWAY.
PLEASE FIND SOMETHING BETTER TO DO THAN JUDGE. LET GOD ME MKKY JUDGE.
KIM

Hi Leia,

I'm sorry

And I don't think I'd feel any holier in my marriage if I found out my ex-husband had died either.

What are we wrestling with here, or there on that other thread? Is it just their opinion or is it truly what God requires of us? I've heard of Christians getting married to stop living in sin, but getting divorced to stop living in sin??? Unheard of! Except for those ones in Ezra who had to divorce their foreign wives.

Love, Libby

Oh Kim, that's really beautiful! And what you say about the bondage, enslaved thing makes total sense, too. If my divorce is forgiven I can't see that I'd have to go thru another one to please God. Thanks so much for your love and concern!

Love, Libby

Libby and kim48..
Mercy and Truth be to you both.

I was just looking through the forum threads and came upon this one.

You both ought to be ashamed.

First of all I haven't judged anyone. The Word of God will be our judge and
it's very plain to those that seek Truth.

First let's cover what I believe.
I believe that if you don't forgive you won't be forgiven. Read the Our Father.
"Forgive us our sins AS we forgive those that have sinned against us."

That's the bottom line. If you don't forgive neither will God forgive you.
Therefore a "Christian" cannot divorce their mate no matter what the offense.
If there is physical or sexual abuse and the Christian needs to move for the
sake of safety that's fine but there is no allowance in any case for a "Christian"
to divorce their mate.

You guys are pretty hip on quoting 1Cor.7 so lets include the two verses right
in front of the ones you like to quote.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And unto the married I command , yet not I, but the Lord, LET NOT THE WIFE
DEPART FROM HER HUSBAND: 1Cor.7:10
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Boy oh boy that one is really hard to interpret.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But and if she depart, LET HER REMAIN UNMARRIED, or be reconciled to her
husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 1Cor.7:11
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wow.. that one is really hard to understand too.

Neither one of you know me and I don't know either of you. If you want to ask me a question about what I see in scripture then fine, I will answer any question you
have using the Light that God has given me. If I don't have a scriptual answer I
won't make something up.

According to the scriptures the ONLY time a brother or sister is not bound
is when the unbeliever leaves. 1Cor.7:15.

I don't know what Fisher has posted and since I don't I won't make a comment
on whether I agree with him or not.

I agree with the scriptures. If you have a problem with them then direct your
slanderous comments toward God.

To say the least I am deeply offended by your remarks like I have judged you
to hell. GOOD GRIEF!!!!! If I by something that I have said personally offends
you then you need to PM me away from the forum and state your case. Mat.18:15

How many people do you think have read your postings and made false judgments
about me. How are you ever going to undo what you have done. You can't and I
will survive whatever storm may that arise but I do pray that you have learned
a lesson here.
Be very careful with the words you speak.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give an
account therof in the day of judgment. FOR BY THY WORDS THOU SHALT BE JUSTIFIED, AND BY THY WORDS THOU SHALT BE CONDEMNED. Mat.12:36,37
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There is a Commandment that covers False Witness against you neighbor.


If you would like my input about something then please ask otherwise please leave
my name out of your posts.
Thank you.

Peace, Tom

Well Tomcat, shame on you. My questions went unanswered, remember? You were in agreement with Fisher and have not yet departed from that agreement. Did you read his post in which he condemns to the lake of fire those who won't divorce their mates? I suggest you do. I would be joyful to learn you don't agree with him, but unless you come forward with some boldness on that thread, I will continue to believe you are in agreement with Fisher.

This was our exchange, to refresh your memory.









QUOTE(Libby @ Sep 22 2005, 05:41 AM)
Hi Tom and Fisher,

In a group of Christians, say, meeting in a prayer group for your church or something like that, how would you counsel them? I guess you'd obviously tell them not to use the NIV translation. But if they are divorced, how would you minister to them in the body of Christ?

Love, Libby

Reading this post made me very sad. I feel that there is not one person here on earth worthy of telling another that they will "go to Hell" for one thing or another. Who here knows the heart of the other? Not one of us... only God. I feel that God is very much against divorce. He's against many, many things but in his infinite wisdom he provided for our mistakes. God isn't for war, but he knew that because of sin it would happen and he not only made provisions for it in the old testament but led them through it. Likewise, Jesus said "come as you are" . I hate to use you as an example Libby, but it seems you're affairs are ripe fodder here so I'm going to share my feelings with you on it. Whatever sins we commit out of ignorance God will "wink" at. Would you advocate putting a 5 year old in prison for the rest of their life if they accidently torch a home while "discovering" matches? Of course not! But once we learn the truth we are accountable for how we lead our lives after that. If you found the "truth" about divorce after your second marriage then go forward from here. I would say ( hesitantly-- I think each of us charged with earnest prayer and seeking divne council from The Lord-- not other men/women!) that God would expect you to continue faithfully in the marriage you have now. It is impossible to unscramble eggs, or undo sins. We mustrepent and set about living the righteous lives and plans our God has for each of us. I

Also-- I feel strongly that guilt about things we've done in the past and are unable to change is one of Satan's greatest tools. If we are hard on ourselves and beat ourselves (and each other!) up, how can God truly utilize us to do his work. When we truly repent , God forgives us. Often, we do not forgive ourselves so quickly.

Libby - - In additrion to this website, I also love to read the articles at another great site I've found: http://www.amazingfacts.org. This is from an article in their online library titled Satan's confusing counterfits. I thought it applied here...

[QUOTE]How did the cross remove the enmity and restore the relationship of God and man? What did Jesus carry to that cross? Upon His own body He assumed vicariously the guilt of every descendant of Adam and Eve. In fact, Jesus offered to make an exchange with each one of us. He would take our condemnation and death sentence, bear it to the cross, and exhaust the penalty of sin against us. At the same time that He bears our punishment, He covers over the ugly record of our past transgressions. In fact, He accomplished this by imputing credit to us for living His own perfect life of obedience. So what do we yield up, and what do we receive from Him? We give up our death in exchange for His life; and as a result, God treats us as if we have never sinned, and He treats Jesus on the cross as though He were guilty of all our sins.

Now look at the rest of Romans 5:10. After describing the reconciliation effected by the death of Jesus, Paul continues, "much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Please notice that we need both the life and the death of Jesus to achieve full salvation. Past sins are covered by the imputed benefits of His atoning death, and future victories are assured by the imparted benefits of His sinless life in the flesh.

We cannot change or improve the actions that have already been recorded against us. They can only be canceled by claiming to our account the credited record of His perfect obedience. Any of our future actions can be changed by accepting the impartation of His victorious experience as He lived it in our own fallen nature. And that brings us to the second strategy that Satan uses in making people sin.


Libby- - my bible tells me in two places that in the case of adultery, divorce is accepted. God doesn't like divorce, but it seems to me he would hate more one of his children remaining in such an abomination of the institution he created in the beginning. That is why he made provisions for his children to leave a situation that could threaten their salvation if their spouse is unfaithful. erpretation o fGod's word is that the one who is being cheated on has the right to leave. Think of it like this. If we insist on turning our back on (or cheating on) God do you think he will remain "married" to us? No. He will forgive us of anything except the unforgivable sin; turning our back on the holy spirit.

Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

The reason this is unforgivable is that the holy spirit will quit working in our lives once we grieve him. Ergo, we are no longer under his influence and therefore do not recognize that we need to repent. Thus, we are "divorced" by the holy spirit because of our adultery.

One last thing, Libby- - There are many, many people out theere who will tell you many, many, conflicting things. It is not our job to convince or convict others of our beliefs. We are to come together and discuss and share prayerfully and always searching the scriptures. When something seems to conflict, search deeper and study harder and PRAY.

Matthew 7 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


God bless you, Libby, as you strive to lead the life God has prepared for you. I, for one, admire the way you have handled yourself under condemnation. No man has the right to judge you. Jesus is your judge and HE knows your heart. I will be praying for you

love4all,

Thanks. You put things so nicely. There are a few religions I have talked to, most really, that are willing to be the first one to stone Adam. You know, I am not ready to do that either. The man was a baby. And he was up against an angel mentality. I can't fight evil, they are to smart for me and sometimes I get into trouble and don't even know how I GOT there. Thank God for the mercey seat.

Leia

Good Greif! This topic (divorce) is in almost all the active threads. Here is yet one more example on this topic.

First we must call divorce what it is--sin. Then we must look to God's Word to see how He deals with this, or any other sin. Divorce causes one to commit the sin of adultery.

"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery" (Matthew 5:31-32).

Now let us look at a case concerning a woman who was caught in the act of adultery and see how the Lord deals with her.

"They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him, But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more" (John 8:4-11).

From this account we see the Lord extending mercy to this woman and forgiving her of her sin. We also notice that He made an important statement, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone."

The Lord treats all sins alike as far as redemption is concerned; sin is sin. The answer to every sin problem is the acceptance of Jesus and His sacrifice that cleanses us from sin. If we turn to Jesus, no matter what sin we commit, we will find forgiveness and mercy. The Lord did not say she had not sinned, but forgave her and admonished her to "sin no more." The sin of divorce is not the unpardonable sin. No matter what sin we have committed in our lives, whether it be lying, cheating, stealing, murder or divorce, Jesus made a way for us to cleansed and forgiven. When the Lord forgives sin, He also ceases to remember it. God's love and forgiveness is so different from man's. Hebrews 10:17 says, "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

LovingHIM,
I agree...it is quite boring!!!!!!!! Can we go back to the topic at hand????

Boring? It sure got my attention! Were you not entertained at the prospect of Christians who refuse to divorce their mates being thrown into the lake of fire???? I was shocked to find advocates of this type of divorce here -- I feel like that guy in the first Dr. Doolittle, "I've never seen anything like it in my life!"

Since then I've found it is NOT a mainstream teaching of Christianity. Whew!!

We set up a thread all it's own in the Bible questions section under "When Should Christians Divorce?" -- hopefully in time to save this thread from further intrusion, maybe in time to save the Bible Versions thread from it, where it seems to have started.

Hugs to all of you who ministered with such love and concern to a fellow Christian who thought she might be headed for HOT WATER

And now a word from our original thread -- this hole in hell, did the story get debunked and did we find out what hell really is?

Love, Libby

Libby,
No...I don't find it boring at all. I just don't really care for a lot of the arguing back and forth regarding divorce...blah blah blah...

Sorry, that is just me though.

Whoa-talk about legalism at its finest.I bet you think that women shouldnt be pastors.If a couple gets married and both are unsaved then God hasnt sanctioned that marriage to begin with.Whose to say that God isnt going to send the right person for her later when she becomes saved then divorces the guy.We have to realise that many laws were written for specific groups of people for a specific point in time.

Divorce and Remarriage

“Now the Spirit [of God] expressly says that in latter times [the days we live in now] some will DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies ...FORBIDDING TO MARRY…” (1Timothy 4:1,3).

“Forbidding [someone] to marry” after they have been divorced is a doctrine of the devil. The Bible is not saying that these people who hold to this belief are not true Christians, but that they teach out of ignorance ? they don't understand God's heart in the Scriptures. Understanding God's heart only comes from the Holy Spirit revealing Him to us. Whenever we do not understand God's heart in the Scriptures, we have departed from sound doctrine.

This Scripture could not be talking about forbidding to marry in general. Nobody would listen to such nonsense preached. The desire that God put in man to have a companion and sexual partner is too great, especially if they were married before. In order that we don’t fall into “...sexual immorality, let EACH MAN have his own wife, and let EACH WOMAN have her own husband” (1Corinthians 7:2). “[For] IT IS NOT GOOD THAT MAN SHOULD BE ALONE…” (Genesis 2:18a).

The erroneous doctrine of forbidding one to marry after a divorce has been preached and taught in many churches. It has violated the conscience and hearts of those who’ve been divorced, driving them into a constant state of confusion and negatively impacting their lives. The only way for these people to come out of that confused state is to leave the church, and many have done just that. Not only do they leave the church to remarry, they also need to be able to make the right decision to divorce when it’s necessary in order to save themselves and their families before all is destroyed.

In order to understand that there IS marriage after divorce, we will examine the Scriptures in Matthew 19:3-12 focusing on the usage of the Greek word, apoluo. The Greek word apoluo that’s translated “divorce” or “to put away” is a general word. Its primary usage is: to “send” (apoluo) someone home when it’s getting late.11 When two people are leaving each other there is a “separation.” Apoluo is a separation in general, which does not involve the “legal” aspect of a permanent separation like a divorce. The common usage is seen in the Scripture “When it was evening, His disciples came to Him, saying ‘This is a deserted place, and the hour is already late. SEND (apoluo) the multitudes away, that they may go unto the villages and buy themselves food’” (Matthew 14:15). The Greek word apoluo doesn’t have a legal aspect to it. It’s just a common word that means, “I’m going to go” or, “away from, to separate.” Because of our wrong beliefs about divorce, this key word was purposely translated (incorrectly) so it would not conflict with our beliefs.

When used concerning a marriage it means a separation and NOT a divorce. If a spouse separates intending never to return, then the next step comes into play; the spouse obtains a “certificate of divorce.” This is what the confrontation between Jesus and the Pharisees (the religious lawyers of His day) was about in Matthew 19:3-12. The legal question was, “Do you just separate, OR do you separate AND give a certificate of divorce?” The Greek word used for divorce in these Scriptures means, to “send away” or separate from, NOT a finalized legal divorce.

The lawyers of God’s law tested Jesus. Their motive was to justify when they only separated from their wives and remarried without ever getting a divorce. They asked Him if God accepts a separation to get remarried without a divorce certificate for just any reason. Jesus responded that when a male and female come together in a marriage union, “...they are no longer two BUT ONE…” (Matthew 19:6a). Because the couple is still united, He doesn’t want “man” (the marriage partners) to just separate from each other and get remarried without a divorce. A SEPARATION ALONE DOES NOT BREAK THE MARRIAGE UNION. IT TAKES A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE, ALSO. So the question was NOT, “Can a spouse DIVORCE their mate for any reason,” but “Can a spouse get a SEPARATION from their mate for any reason and then remarry while just separated.”

When a husband just leaves his wife for another woman without ever giving her a certificate of divorce, this keeps the wife in limbo. She could not go back to her husband because he doesn’t want her; and she couldn’t “go and become another man’s wife” as Moses commanded because she is not legally divorced (See Deuteronomy 24:1-2). If she did remarry without a legal divorce, she and the man who married her would be committing adultery. This is why Jesus said, “...whoever separates (apoluo) from his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is [just] separated (apoluo) commits adultery” (Matthew 19:9 My Translation).

Because the Pharisees’ hearts were so hard “They said to Him [Jesus], ‘WHY then did Moses COMMAND to give a certificate of divorce AND to put her away [separate]?’” (Matthew 19:7). They agreed with the part of the law that said that you could leave your wife, but they didn’t understand that it was not right to keep their wives from getting remarried. A spouse with a hardened heart will not give the other spouse a divorce. They will want to control the person. A person who truly loves unconditionally will always give you a way out: an option not to love.

So it is with God; He always gives us the choice to not love Him. As we choose to love Him, it’s true love. At times the reason a marriage isn’t a truly unconditional loving marriage is because the partners feel that there is never a way out, if needed. If the marriage partners knew that there was a godly way to escape from a failing marriage it would give the couple the freedom to “choose to love,” even when it’s not convenient.

Jesus said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, PERMITTED you to divorce [separate from] your wives, but from the beginning IT [being separated without a divorce] WAS NOT SO” (Matthew 19:8). Notice in verse seven that Moses COMMANDED them to give a certificate of divorce AND to separate (put away) their wives. But in verse eight, because their hearts were so hardened against their spouse, Moses PERMITTED them to just separate without the husband giving the wife a certificate of divorce. The reason Moses commanded that a certificate of divorce be given was to guarantee that the wife could get remarried. Simply, Moses commanded to give a certificate of divorce AND to separate. But because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses permitted them to separate only. The permission to separate and remarry without a divorce was limited to sexual immorality. If the wife was unfaithful, the husband could leave without ever being “officially divorced” — by giving her a certificate of divorcement, and go take another woman as his wife. But if there was no sexual immorality involved, the husband could NOT separate from his wife without getting a divorce first. If he didn’t get a divorce and went to live with another woman or got remarried, they were committing adultery.

“Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed [for selfish reasons]. Are you loosed [divorced] from a wife? [In my opinion says Paul, the Apostle] do not seek a wife. BUT EVEN IF YOU DO MARRY, YOU HAVE NOT SINNED; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned” (1Corinthians 7:26-28a). Notice that the “virgin” AND the person “loosed [divorced]” are both put in the same category — they have “not sinned” by getting married. BOTH THE PERSON WHO WAS NEVER MARRIED AND THE PERSON WHO WAS DIVORCED ARE WITHOUT SIN IF THEY MARRY.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 tells of a situation where a man married a woman and then divorced her. This woman then married another man. The Scriptures go on to state that if the second marriage ends by her husband writing “...her a certificate of divorce ...OR if the latter husband dies…” (Deuteronomy 24:3,4), she could not remarry the first man she divorced because she had already married someone else. Therefore, if our spouse dies, or if we were divorced, we can get married again. Divorce and death are equal before God. The only stipulation in this Scripture is that if this is the second marriage, we cannot go back to the first spouse and remarry them because we married someone else after we divorced them.

Thank you Warrior Princess, you are blessing to this forum.

Leia

Yes

WOW,thanks.

Yes, Warrior-Princess, very good insights on the divorce-remarriage controversy. We've been having quite a discussion in the questions section and if the moderators don't lock it yet [though we've been begging them to!], I'd like to move your post to that thread if you don't mind.

Love, Libby

Thank you lord for a voice of reason coupled with love and truth!! FINALLY!!

Hoax recording or not...this recording is eerie.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?view...3a5007bc38d456c

It is eerie