Today the Vatican made public a document calling for 'Solidarity and Respect between Muslims and Christians.' Now, repect I can agree to, but solidarity?

sol·i·dar·i·ty - A union of interests, purposes, or sympathies among members of a group; fellowship of responsibilities and interests

Synonyms:

adherence, attachment, bond, cementation, cling, clinging, comprehensibility, concordance, conformity, congruity, connection, consistency, consonance, construction, continuity, correspondence, inseparability, inseparableness, integrity, intelligibility, rationality, relations, solidarity, stickage, union, unity

Now, if Allah and Yahweh are the same God, and if the Muslims are "people of God...(whom) the plan of salvation also includes" (Vatican II), then I suppose that solidarity would be appropriate. Remember the Vatican chooses its words very, very carefully. But Allah and Yahweh are not the same!!!

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=68785


Also - on the same day I might add - the Pope has called for Mid-East leaders to "create as soon as possible the conditions for serene and peaceful coexistence throughout the Middle East."

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=68782

Meanwhile, as you know, Olmert and Abbas have agreed to meet formally.

Another case of Catholic confusion...

Not surprised!

Yeah, no.

Why does the Vatican even speak in public anymore? Don't they know that everytime they open thier mouths, more and more people see them for who they are? Y acan't hide being two faced if you use both faces at the same time in front of the world.

God is GOD! I know this is a hard concept but there are going to be people SAVED from: All Christian denominations AND Jewish, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. on and on.

There are only TWO Spirits here HOLY and UNHOLY. What does the Unholy Spirit look like, now read Scripture, but ALL of it.

Stop judging others. People are people folks, wheat and tares intermingled everywhere!!

People are saved by God's grace, who are you to judge.

Let Go and Let Jesus!

Baa!

Yeah, but not without Jesus, and saying we should be pals with the guys whose very religious conviction is to turn the world into Islam, which is devoid of Jesus, is foolish. Sure, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Aborigines will be saved, but that 'proof', namely the two witnesses, will only come after Gog is destroyed. Until then, let's not shackle our leg to the guy with the suicide bomb vest.

Just a suggestion.

BTW, why dos this thing say snapback on it when I quote someone?

But where is there a country that is devoid of EVIL? There isn't one.
We can look to each region of the world and see the most evil of evil.

Thou shall not kill. As soon as the killing started, that violation sooner or later was going to bring about the END.

But it is not too late to spread the message of Jesus Christ which is LOVE.

Love to enemies, just plain love TO ALL.

That is not for us to understand why, it is what we are commanded to do.

But then how can we continue to hate the Muslims if we get to know them as people. You mean we need to consider them as Gods Creation that he loves. Besides it was the Catholic Church that is trying to bring the message to the Muslims so it has to be evil. It's Evil I tell you, EVIL. We must hate them the Catholic Church and the Muslims. After all they are the work of satan and God hates satan. I know because the Holy Spirit told me in a dream, and I can find Bible verses that support what I am saying.


Yada yada yada and the hate goes on and on.


Lets me ask this, how do you bring love into a world full of Hate.

Baa I commend you for telling the emperor he has no pants on!

K.D.

I don't think anyone is saying not to love on Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or Catholics. In fact, we're saying precisely the opposite! Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Now, was our savior speaking in hyperbole? Did he really mean, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me, or Buddha, or Muhammad, or the Dali Lama, or Joseph Smith, or Mary, or by personal merit, or any other way that is sincere and contains a bit of truth?

Jesus also said, I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

John 17 and Ephesians 4 are talking about unity within the church, not without. Someone once said, I think it was John Wesley, that preaching the Gospel should have one of two effects. 1) The sinner should get mad as hell and become angry with the preacher or 2) The sinner should feel conviction and a desire to repent. There is much truth in this statement.

Now, if Jesus is the only way, and Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, and even false converts among Evangelical Protestants are not saved, what are we to do? Love on them, while failing to warn them of the eternal judgment hanging over their souls? Love on them without preaching the Word? Love on them, while they slip into eternal separation from the Living God? Nay! If we truly love them and respect them, we will warn them of the terrible danger! If I have a teen in high school who I find out is drinking and smoking dope, do I fail to rebuke them for their behavior - because I love them too much? Obviously not. If I love them I will rebuke them and warn them of the danger of living such a lifestyle. And religion is one of the greatest lifestyle sins against God because it presumes that we can earn our way back to Him through our own devotion, works, and good merit. Salvation is a free gift we can't earn, and saving faith is a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ alone, by grace alone through faith alone. If this sounds false to you, then you have been seduced by a false gospel likely preached by an apostate church.

How is it then, that you plan on reaching the Muslims with the message? My point is that in your zeal to prove that the Catholic Church is evil you fail to see the very fact that the Vatican is trying to reach out to the very people that are trying to kill Christians and be an examples of Christ love, as we are commanded to do.

As to the rest of your post.....Really. I think I will not bite on the diversion.

K.D.

not surprised. vatican has done and said worse to the public.

That's my whole point, KD. Two false religious systems working together to find common ground, and to establish peace in the Holy Land. Reading my Bible, this sounds awfully familiar. I believe, and obviously I could be wrong, that Catholicism and Islam may be the two horns of the false prophet in Revelation 13. Iraq and Islam as literal Babylon, Rome and Catholicism as Spiritual Babylon. (Both of these entities highly covet Jerusalem.) If this is correct, this will lead to a 'One-World' religion, a 'One-World' economy, and a false messiah who will deceive many.

I know I keep harping on this, but I don't hear this taught too much.

Please mods, don't see this post as spamming, because I cannot progress in my reply to this thread without repeating and having the following addressed prior to the rest of the reply.

Where, pray tell, do you think any Christian church originated from. The RCC.
In light of this, how can any member of any other denomination condemn an entire DENOMINATION, think of all your brothers and sisters in Christ that you pridefully judge. Anything that the Catholic Church does that is NOT BIBLICALLY based is in error; however, there is nothing about the Catholic Mass that is not Biblical.

But first and foremost you cannot, absolutely cannot discount that the church of Jesus Christ on earth wasn't passed on directly to PETER.

....just can't disregard the elephant in the room, sorry, not yesterday, not today, not EVER.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 KJV


Excuse me for reiterating, but this is important to restate to continue my reply to this thread.

Once you understand the concept of wheat/tares, goat/sheep you will understand that they are intermingled EVERWHERE - likewise in ALL organizations the RCC is no exception.

Now, with that stated - Again, without dregging up all the sins, hypocracy, misinterpretations of Scripture, etc., of pastors and parisheners alike, how in good conscience can you not acknowledge the following:

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:30-32

The unpardonable SIN is not being of the wrong religion, it is not having the indweling Holy Spirit that is GOING to lead you to JESUS CHRIST - eventually. This is where you cannot judge others in other religions, they may find Jesus on their deathbed, they may have a relationship with Jesus through the HOLY SPIRIT that is not apparent to YOUR scrutiny. It may not be THEIR good works, THEY may have a relationship and pleasing to the Lord Jesus Christ because that is where the Holy Spirit is leading them.



The division that Jesus is referring to is the work of the Holy Spirit. The sheep will HAVE the fire of the Holy Spirit. The goats/tares will NOT.

Jesus at no time said take up your guns, knifes, clubs, tanks, bombs and BE MY AVENGING ANGEL.

The angels of GOD will separate the intermingled wheat/tares. You were not supposed to kill Cain.

Why didn't Jesus return sooner to sort out the mess, the reason why is so glarringly apparent:

SOULS FOR THE KINGDOM. Look at the earth's population!! Praise the Lord! Thank you Jesus.

You think your brothers and sisters in a foreign land are NOT important to Jesus Christ. They are His creation and He will deal with them in His way. Jesus is not just for one church on one street....nosiree!!

Jesus gave us TWO commandments:

1- "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you" (Jn.15:12,17, 13:34,35).
2- "He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation" (Mk.16:15, Mt.28:19).

http://biblia.com/christ/love.htm

Matthew 7:1-2
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

You cannot go out into the world acting like an avenging angel of God and be spreading any GOOD news to anybody.

The Pope, whether you like it or not, IS the designated representative of Jesus Christ on earth. I do not know why anybody would have a problem with this, There would HAVE to be a designated spokesperson. Think about how HUGE the earth is.

The Pope is spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ brother.

Insulting the RCC does not make anybody right, really ramping up the insults of the RCC doesn't make anybody right. (Matthew 16:18.)

Let Go and Let Jesus!!

Baa!

For the most part I'll defer the whole apologetics thing to my website:

http://www.daysofnoah.org/catholicism

One thing though, about the mass. In the Old Testament, there was only one place where a valid sacrifice could be made - the Temple in Jerusalem. The Samaritan sacrifice on Mount Gerizim, for example, was not valid. In the New Testament the same is true. There is only one efficacious sacrifice, Jesus Christ who was cursed on the tree. The so-called sacrifice of the Mass is therefore invalid, supposing it to be a sacrifice in the first place. As we'll see, Scripture shows that the sacrifice of the mass cannot be the same sacrifice of Calvary, as the Catholic Church teaches.

Matthew 24:23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Hebrews 9:22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Eucharistic adoration and the efficacy of the 'bloodless' sacrifice of the mass are not scriptural. I know this is the last thing a Catholic wants to hear, and maybe I shouldn't even post it, b/c it is at the very heart of Catholicism.

The Lord gave me this Scripture earlier today, Psalm 51:

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

This is why Hebrews 10:18 says Now where remission of these [sin] is, there is no more offering for sin.

Would not this include the supposed ongoing sacrifice of the mass? Also Hebrews 9:24-25:

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

I have been in contact with a man who was educated by Jesuits before attending one of the premier Catholic Universities in the world and becoming a Dominican Priest for over 20 years. (Dominicans and Jesuits are the most academic orders in the Roman Church.) He told me that Catholic seminarians are trained in Aristotelian Philosophy (i.e. not Scripture) so they can better understand the metaphysics of Transubstantiation. Now, if the real presence in the Eucharist and the sacrifice of the mass are readily apparent in the Bible, why the need to appeal to a pagan philosopher who lived three centuries before Christ?

Finally, Hebrews 7:23-24 says And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man [Jesus Christ], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood

The greek word for unchangeable is aparabatos meaning:

1) unviolated, not to be violated, inviolable

2) unchangeable and therefore not liable to pass to a successor

Christ, as our High Priest, has no successors, including the Apostles themselves. Christ is the only priest of the New Testament who offers an atoning sacrifice. We Christians, the priesthood of all believers, offer the sacrifice of praise and worship.

The Torah says over and over that the Jews were not to eat blood (Leviticus 3:17; 7:26-27; 17:10-14; 19:26; Deuteronomy 16:12,23,24; 15:23. There's also 1 Samuel 14:33-34; and Ezekiel 33:25.

But the Catholic Church would have us believe we're supposed to literally drink Christ's blood (though for some reason it still looks, smells and tastes like wine)? Also, Exodus 20:4-6

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Would not anything on earth include bread which is purported to be the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ Himself? Matthew 5:17-18:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Please do not "defer the whole apologetics thing" to your webpage as I really couldn't find anything there that readily addressed three points and now I am very interested in your response.

The three points being the following:


Point 1:
But first and foremost you cannot, absolutely cannot discount that the church of Jesus Christ on earth wasn't passed on directly to PETER.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 KJV


Point 2:
Once you understand the concept of wheat/tares, goat/sheep you will understand that they are intermingled EVERWHERE - likewise in ALL organizations the RCC is no exception.

Now, with that stated - Again, without dregging up all the sins, hypocracy, misinterpretations of Scripture, etc., of pastors and parisheners alike, how in good conscience can you not acknowledge the following:

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:30-32

The unpardonable SIN is not being of the wrong religion, it is not having the indweling Holy Spirit that is GOING to lead you to JESUS CHRIST - eventually. This is where you cannot judge others in other religions, they may find Jesus on their deathbed, they may have a relationship with Jesus through the HOLY SPIRIT that is not apparent to YOUR scrutiny. It may not be THEIR good works, THEY may have a relationship and pleasing to the Lord Jesus Christ because that is where the Holy Spirit is leading them.




The division that Jesus is referring to is the work of the Holy Spirit. The sheep will HAVE the fire of the Holy Spirit. The goats/tares will NOT.

Jesus at no time said take up your guns, knifes, clubs, tanks, bombs and BE MY AVENGING ANGEL.

The angels of GOD will separate the intermingled wheat/tares. You were not supposed to kill Cain.

Why didn't Jesus return sooner to sort out the mess, the reason why is so glarringly apparent:

SOULS FOR THE KINGDOM. Look at the earth's population!! Praise the Lord! Thank you Jesus.

You think your brothers and sisters in a foreign land are NOT important to Jesus Christ. They are His creation and He will deal with them in His way. Jesus is not just for one church on one street....nosiree!!

Jesus gave us TWO commandments:

1- "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you" (Jn.15:12,17, 13:34,35).
2- "He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation" (Mk.16:15, Mt.28:19).

http://biblia.com/christ/love.htm

Matthew 7:1-2
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

You cannot go out into the world acting like an avenging angel of God and be spreading any GOOD news to anybody.


Point 3:
The Pope, whether you like it or not, IS the designated representative of Jesus Christ on earth. I do not know why anybody would have a problem with this, There would HAVE to be a designated spokesperson. Think about how HUGE the earth is.

The Pope is spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ brother.

* * *
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Hebrews 7 23-24 (KJV)

As you said, unchangeable, inviolable, inviolate - intact, must be kept sacred. Notice the word priest, where do we find priests of Jesus Christ in the world's history, only in the RCC, sorry but that is where the lineage of priests is.


* * *
Regarding the priest you know who studied Aristotelian philosophy at the seminary. You answered your own questions, did you not, when you used the word academic. To be a well rounded academic would you not be required to have studied the world's philosophers, make comparisons, analogies, etc. as part of your academic studies? I'm sure his studies included many other things such as languages, theology, comparitive relgion, the doctrines of the RCC, history, the church doctors and cannon law, in addition to secular studies math, etc.

I do not understand?

Jesus wants us IN the world but not OF THE WORLD.

Just because you read a philosopher's work, even Nietze, doesn't mean you adhere to it.

(Matthew 5:14-16) "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. {15} "Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. {16} "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

So we go forth. Life does not occur in a vacuum.


* * *
The Gospel account of the Last Supper of Jesus Christ on the eve of His Passion. This is when he instituted the Holy Eucharist. The account of this is very explicit.

Luke 22 17-20 (KJV)

17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

This is what the RCC re-inacts in Rememberance of Our Lord, Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

Now, I will let the RCC represent itself in its fullness the way it wants to be represented with these links on the Eucharist, The RCC Mass and the issue of Veneration of Images on these links.

Veneration of Images:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

RCC Mass:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

Blessed Eucharist
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm

* * *

This is in reply to your subsequent post on this thread.




This obviously was an admonition against the Babylonian Talmudic practices, Purin, etc.

An admonishment against actual human sacrifice and canabalism. Research the origin of the word canabal, its interesting.

Nothing to do with re-enacting the Lord's Supper,



Yes, the Lord's supper?? Bread and wine. Rememberance of His Sacrifice, no one is drinking blood or eating flesh. Please!!



I provided the RCC encyclopedia link above regarding this.

Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill!! All has been fulfilled
by Jesus Christ. We must abandon ourselves to Him, as we can never, never be pleasing or abide or comply trying to do it ourselves.

That was why He came. That is the message of the New Testament.

Let Go and Let Jesus!

Baa!

Sorry to chip in, but I cannot believe that this is still an issue. If you take one scripture like this out of context, then yes, poor Peter was the first human to get foundation status, but if you look (like one should) at the passage, then you are bound to see the truth(unless you are bound by your views)
15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Notice : Simon becomes Peter after he received this revelation about the foundation of the church: That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God

That is the Rock, "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God" and we all better be building on that Rock and not on a man.

Peter receives a name change, because he found the Rock.

God is calling all to come out of false religions, not just the RCC but the apostate churches in the world. Those who preach another Jesus.Does your church preach the full Gospel? (I am not talking about the full Gospel Church here) Does your church teach you about the Holy Spirit and His gifts or do they say that is is not for today. If so, get out and find somewhere that they believe the Bible.

Find a church or fellowship of believers that walk in Christ (The Word) Be with those who not only talk, but does that which the Word tell us to do.

You are only His disciple if you do what He tell us to do.Some follow churches and they will always defend those and not the Gospel. God said that they will be with us, but you have a choice still, before it is too late. He is at the door.
love C

Still did not address point one, in no way does this discount any of that point or any of the others. That is the crux of the matter at hand.

I am sorry you can't believe that a discussion about the Vatican is worthy to be continued.

How quick you are to call the RCC an apostate church and how quick to judge me, I ask why? Did I not provide you with enough background on the RCC Mass, was something I said not based 100% on the Bible?

Who is the representative of Jesus Christ on Earth; it is the Pope. How can you call yourself a Christian and not acknowledge that Christ would need this capacity filled?

DaysofNoah, I am interested in your response.

Let Go and Let Jesus!

Baa!

Back up Jesus' need for a representative on Earth using plain ole scripture. And by this, I mean the whole chapter, so the context isn't lost in the interpretation.

Not saying anyhting for or against Rome, but I don't remember anywhere where Jesus said that someone needed to be the number one guy while He's upstairs.

Baa, the representatives of Christ on earth is me and all the rest of the saints. We are the Body of Christ and the Jesus is the Head.

It's like Cornie ran up, kicked me in the back of the head, and grabbed the words that fell from my mouth, then tripped and they landed on the board. Flippin magical.
Amen, Cornie.

I am also part of the priesthood:
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Cornelius, yes the Body of Christ. Praise you Lord Jesus!!

However, just for easy reference purposes I'll say back to point one.

I firmly believe that it would be a sorry state of affairs if there wasn't a spokesperson, one, for all of the Body of Christ on Earth. There would have to wind up being one for purposes of intervention in critical world affairs.

The world is a big place, what chaos it would be otherwise.

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:30-32

you are saying have the Bible is saying speaks Be careful , that is how doctrines are started.
Many people do not have the Holy Spirit, but will have Him soon, so it cannot be that they are never going to pardon in this age or the next.

Ok, so maybe as His spokesperson, Mr. Papam would like to send a few billion ot Sudan, for all the little starving kids. I'm pretty sure that's something along the lines of what Jesus' spokesperson would do? How about homeless people? Is he letting the transients in Rome crash at St. Peters? What about AIDs research? Maybe he'd like to go ahead, as Jesus' spokesperson and all, and explain to me why Catholics bow to Mary now, when Dad's rules (Which are, mind you, still completely valid, from the very smallest, to Thou Shalt not worship and god but ME.) strictly prohibit this. We don't even pray to the Son, we pray in His name, and we pray to the Father. Maybe Mr. Super Spokesman could explain these things.

By the way, what's his email address, I know some homeless people around here who could use money for room and board, not to mention clean clothes and food. Hospital care would rule too. Does the Vatican offer universal healthcare?


If he's the spokesman for Jesus, he's going to have a lot of explaining to do. Once again, as my signature suggests, READ EZEKIEL 13.

Baa, we are not of this world, our Kingdom is from above. God is sovereign and He is in control. He tells us that he puts government in place , even the ones that we find not to be good ones. Why? To bring forth the Sons of God through tribulation. God does not need one guy to run it all, His revealed plan was to have MANY sons and through His body (soon) we will see Him come in His body and fulfill what is written, The sons of God will be revealed and the whole earth will be filled with His glory.
Not one man, but many. Jesus was sown as a Son, so God could have many sons.
"each seed will bring forth after its own kind" (Genesis)

So , nowhere in the Bible does it show us that God will place one man in authority over His church (The Church is the WHOLE body of believers, in the RCC and outside the RCC) and not all people in the RCC are believers and not all in the rest of the churches are believers.....
love C

I was referring to having the Holy Spirit operating within them in the form of a conscience and prompting them in their lives and other works of the Holy Spirit, as there are only two operative here.

EverWatchful, yes, I read it. Did you read Acts 2? What exactly is your point? I do not understand.

I am sure also that there are oh say 12 homeless children living with you presently? What is your point??

My point is that someone who doesn't act like Jesus shouldn't go around calling himself His stand-in, is what my point is. I don't remember a verse where Jesus wears Prada shoes either.

Is that in Acts 2? I hope so.

Cornelius, but take the world as it is today, who else could speak on behalf of the Body of Christ which delegate would be representative of Christianity?

How else would the goals of the Body of Christ be more effectively furthered worldwide?

Oh, but if we take point 1, then the rest makes sense.

And then there IS someone who can intervene in world affairs. Who else could do it?

Off to sleep now...

Love,

Baa!

BTW, those are $345.00 shoes. I went clothes shopping yesterday, spent $193.00, and got two pairs of jeans, three pairs of shorts, 7 shirts, and a hat, not to mention a hoodie for my little sister.

I wonder how many orphans Mr. Papam coulda fed with those sweet cognac colored Prada slip-ons?

Baa, we are all to further the Kingdom of God, by how we walk and how we talk.
Plus we do not need a spokesperson, we trust in the supernatural power of God to bring things to pass. We have to rule through our words and prayers.
Remember that vision of Daniel? The one where the rock falls out from the mountain (Christ) and crushes the kingdoms of the world? Well, we will be found in one of those kingdoms. Either in God's (in Christ) or in the world's kingdom, trying to run this planet using man's ways

So the safest place to be found is in Christ, then Psalm 91 kicks in, and then we are safe. One man is fallible (I know they say he isn't but if look through history, you would see just how fallible the popes have been) Jesus is not fallible, we must adhere to Him and Him alone the Bible says, ...do not put your trust in princes of this world. I think the pope can be seen as a prince of this world, don;t you?

I understand that it is difficult to see this, if you have been there all your life. But just go before God and ask Him out of your heart to show you His truth. Not Cornelius's truth, or any person on this forum or else where, nor the popes truth, but God's truth. For we are all men and the Bible says"Let no man be your teacher", I may bring you the Word as I see it, but if you do not clear it with God, I (or the Pope) might lead you into a doctrine of man. But If you ask the Holy Spirit, He will show you. But you must be open. If you ask like Balaam, you might hear what you want to hear. God only reveals truth to those who hunger after it.He sees the heart, so we can hide nothing from Him, even in our asking.
You will be amazed at what will happen
sleep well
love C

Although I agree that the shoes does not match the outfit,( I think the color red is not good with that particular gold, ) maybe we should stick here to the issue at hand and not drift too far off topic.
I think the RCC do have a good few missions looking after the poor, but that is not the issue here. Sister Theresa was a good example of charity to us all.

The point is that this guy is not representing Christ on earth.Anybody willing to read the scriptures for what they are knows that.If you isolate scriptures you can make anything true.
Example:
"And Judas went out and hanged himself"
now add
" and go ye all and do the same"

Man those shoes...you guys do crack me up

Oh C and EVRWTCHFL...we are just going to have to see what Jesus says about all this in the end.

Jesus Loves You...Me Too!

Back to sleep for me now.

Baa!

If you care to take an honest intellectual look at the question of the Primacy of Peter - especially as the Early Church Fathers really viewed Matthew 16:18 (i.e. not ripped out of context as Catholic apologists often tend to) here's a good place to start:

http://christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html

http://christiantruth.com/mt16.html

These first two articles are must reads, but if you're feeling ambitious, also see:

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles_pdf/h...ervw_papacy.pdf

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles_pdf/p...claims_keys.pdf

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Popes.html

http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter/html/1999/mar99.php

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/roma...sm/RC1000W1.htm

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/roma...sm/RC1000W1.htm

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/roma...sm/RC1004W3.htm

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/roma...sm/RC1104W3.htm

http://members.aol.com/jasonte3/paul51.htm

http://members.aol.com/jasonte2/peter.htm

http://members.aol.com/jasonte2/five.htm

http://members.aol.com/jasonte2/nopapacy.htm

http://members.aol.com/jasonte2/denials.htm

http://www.reachingcatholics.org/pastpopes.html

Peter's own words. He did not claim to be the Rock:
1Pe 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3
If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
1Pe 2:4
To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,
1Pe 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9
But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

The Lord was obviously speaking of Himself and who Peter believed Him to be in Matthew 16:15-20

"Men often stumble on the Truth, but usually dust themselves off & hurry away..." - Winston Churchill

What is really interesting to me is that Javier Solana, the voice of the EU was invited with the Pope to go to the International Muslim Conference in Indonesia recently. The Pope would not go, but instead sent someone from the Vatican. Gives me the creeps, almost like the ac and his false prophet. I do not believe this Pope is the false prophet however. But Javier Solana, I could see him easily becoming the ac.

Well, I still have my money on Geroge Clooney being the antichrist and Ben Affleck being the false prophet.

DaysOfNoah, thanks, that is certainly a reference list! I will take a look. Again, thank you.

EverWatchful--- hehehe...

CaliforniaDreamin - An interesting pair-up indeed; sorry, Holy Father, but I believe consensus probably wouldn't say he has a friendly looking face. On the other hand, consensus would probably say JS looks pretty harmless.

But then we all know about looks and deception. Or could it be...

The world is certainly changing very, very fast...even if everything else was just rolling along perfectly, listen to Al Gore.

P.S.: If I was Pope, I think I would have been there. Yes, definitely. I wonder why he didn't go? (EverWatchful...just for you...He stayed home because of not having proper foot atire..must have been the reason.)

Just a quick note:
The covenant that the Vatican recognizes as being the everlasting covenant between mankind and Jehovah was formed by Abraham and his son Ishmael. As you know, Ishmael was born from Hagar. The covenant was symbolized by circumcision. Abraham circumsized himself at 99 and Ishmael and his house at 13. Ishmael was 14 when Isaac was born from Sarah. You can call Hagar and Ishmael and the tribes born to Ishmael one set of 12 tribes, the sons being 12 princes; a separate set of circumsized tribes with the same physical blessings. Isaac was born from Sarah when she was 102, but to Isaac was the blessing of an inheritance. It is said from Ishmael came Islam and the Muslims. Hagar and Ishmael and his 12 tribes were cast from Abraham with no inheritance. The doctrine of works applys to Ishmael; the docctrine of grace applies to the tribes born to Isaac.

I think the key here is sharing the truth in love. Because we must love one another as God loves us but at the same time the truth shouldn't be compromised. Because these poor people need life. Whether, a muslim, catholic, or Mormon or any other faith.

Baa! what demonination are you a member of?

Who other than a Catholic would call the Pope Jesus' representative?

Does any other denomination believe that?

Baa, yes He loves you
You know your eternity is far too important to wait and see one day. The point is that we cannot wait,but have to know Whom we serve and how we serve Him, while we are still in this body.
I appreciate the fact that it will take guts to do, but you would not be the first one and also not the last.
The logical thing to do is to think: What would I have understood if I lived alone on an island and picked up a Bible. Not knowing anything about the doctrines of men.

So now you should read the Bible like that. Its an eye-opener if one does that.Like an e-mail from God to you.Try it and see how God starts speaking to you.

You have to agree, that the important thing is :What does Jesus say to us through the Bible. How does He want us to walk and talk.

Just a simple little thing that you can answer yourself. Say you picked up this Bible and you read : Call no one father except your Father in heaven....then you got rescued and somebody said to you: This is Father Benedict and brother Tom. ...without doctrine, you are going to tell them...Hey guys, I just read: Do not call anybody father except out Father in heaven!
Well then somebody will start saying "Yes but..." as soon as you hear "yes but..." you know somebody is trying to bring you a doctrine of man.
The Bible is simple to understand in its salvation message, people make it complicated.
Read it and live it. Then you are safe.People will try and pull you over to their way, but just say, "Sorry, I am following Jesus...not man"

So after saying all that...do not listen just to what I say...go and ask God. Tell Him: "Father, Cornelius said the following:."..then tell Him and ask Him to confirm this to you Himself.
Then you will have the truth and not the revelation of a man. We can bring the Word, but only the Holy Spirit brings revelation,
love C

Hello

Gregg - with the New Testament, praise Jesus, we need the circumsion of the heart!

Koppted, interesting question. I am a Charismatic, formerly a Catholic Charismatic.

Since I remarried without an annulment, I can no longer receive the Sacraments of the Catholic church; however, I do participate in Mass able to make only a spiritual communion. Catholicism is very strict about annulment. If you talk to a cannon lawyer, and explain your story they can tell you that you would have say a 90% chance of being granted an annulment but unless you go through the actual annulment procedure you cannot remary in the church or receive the sacraments thereafter.

I enjoy worship at Assembly of God congregations.

Cornelius, thank you, really. I like the way you explained the personal relationship with Jesus, and through The Word, and I agree.

Thank you Father for you are faithful, praise God!

I haven’t read this entire thread yet, however I wanted to address everwatchful on his/her first post in this thread…




Be certain you do not let your cynicism get in the way of being “everwatchful” as to what is actually happening in the Catholic church and their tremendous attempts at unification of all faiths in one accord with Catholicism…

Here is a small excerpt taken from BBC News Article entitled Pope Appeals from Christian Unity; Benedict XVI has marked the formal beginning of his reign as Pope by appealing for Christian unity.



Here is the entire article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4478359.stm

Here is another excerpt from CNN entitled- Benedict XVI calls for unification of Christians

Pontiff says his first Mass in Sistine Chapel; Thursday, April 21, 2005



Article here: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/20/pope.wednesday/

These are only 2 examples of thousands...

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.- John 7: 24

If we as Christians were not to judge righteously either, then God would not have given us prophetic signs throughout the Bible to recognize the times.

Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.- Matthew 24: 41-43

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?- Matthew 7: 14-16

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.- 1 John 4:1-3

He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.- Matthew 16: 2-4

I repeat:

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.- John 7: 24

I think that should be enough about “judging” for now…

lol, look at the fruits and stop being so sensitive.