Hello, folks.
I've been looking to join a christian forum for a while now and just today I got around to it. I must say, I like the apologetics threads here and will be sure to read all of it. As a matter of fact, I have one to add which I did not see posted here-- evolutionoftruth.com is a good site I found recently (then again, maybe it is here and didn't see it-- quite a few are listed).
Anyhow, since this is a testemony thread, I'll tell mine. Bear with me, folks because this is long and deep as well. I was raised in a christian home. My mother is a Mormon and my father is a Methodist. My father did his best to instill christian values and beliefs in me. But alas...all those efforts would not prove fruitful until many years later. Already at the age of 11, I began to have doubts about religion and the whole "god myth". This was farther influenced by an elderly next door neighbor I would visit frequently. My neighbor, Walter, shared my keen interest in science and writing music and I would often stop at his house and chat or jam on our instruments for a few hours after school. Walter was an outright atheist. Seeing that I had doubts myself, he had let me borrow many of his books which "refuted the myths and inaccuracies" of the bible, which we would discuss at length afterward. I learned from him about the "pagan origins" of christianity, the biblical inaccuracies, arguments for evolution, psychology of religion, etc, etc.
I managed to hide these activities from my parents for years, knowing they would have had a cow about it. I kept at this, having a thirst for knowledge and feeling that I "knew" I was better off not believing in such "rediculous myths." I felt free--a true freethinker unhindered by religious nonsense.
Many people say that atheists wallow in misery before converting because the belief system teaches that all is meaningless (no purpose in life, "no morals", etc). With me, that was simply not the case. I was perfectly happy with it. I "knew" that the only meaning in life was what you made it to be and I was fine with that. Religion was for the unwashed masses and a crutch for the unlearned to lean on. An emotional security blanket, if you will, for the emotionally weak and intellectually challenged common folk.
My conversion story is not dramatic and colorful like so many, but rather bland. My old believes left me much in the same way they came- quietly, but not without a huge amount of careful consideration. A friend of mine mentioned he had a few tapes of a minister who also had a few Ph.D's in various scientific fields under his belt. Apparently, this minister goes around the country debating with leading members of the scientific community and his apologetics are second to none. Anyhow, my curiosity was aroused and I asked my friend if I could borrow those tapes. Now, I went into this with an open-minded approach. If this guy's arguments were convincing enough without having to resort to quoting scriptures, I vowed to investigate the matter farther and change my thinking accordingly, though I felt that I had heard just about everything regarding the matter.
This is where it gets interesting. Although most of these tapes were mainly about refuting evolution, it was the gentle push needed to point me in the direction of spiritual thinking. On one particular tape, the minister showed pictures of dinosaur footprints next to human footprints and built his case to show that they were, in fact, the SAME AGE. There were other presentations in those tapes that brought into question the age of the Earth, the reality of overpopulation, suppossed conspiracies of secret societies tied in with teaching evolution, etc. Although much of what he taught was rather radical and "out there", to this day I have no way to refute a vast majority of it. For the life of me, I cannot remember this minister's name because I would sure like to buy his entire volume of tapes!
Now, my thinking was this: If evolution is wrong, then what? We just appeared out of dust spontaneously? Nahhh....can't be right. Abiogenesis was proven wrong long ago. Nonetheless, I struggled to find answers-- REAL answers. My search led me to further study of the cosmos, christian apologetics (what if...), philosophy, etc. Over time, another nail hit the coffin-- the big bang theory had one BIG hole in it I did not know about before. Apparently, the chances of the big bang happening in such a way that matter could produce stars and planets was 1 in several hundred SEPTILLION. If the explosion was too violent, all matter would thin out into space too fast to allow the force of gravity, nuclear fusion, etc, to take effect and form celestial bodies. In effect, any chance at life forming would be out of the question-- forever. If the explosion was too light, the universe would collapse back in onto itself...and, well, at least life gets a second chance if the explosion is not too violent. Then, I had to deal with the probabilities of the formation of the primordial soup (amino acids in the seas), amino acids forming organisms capable of reproducing themselves (single celled orgainisms), photosynthesis (a very complex process which the law of prabability states could not just happen by chance), intelligent life, etc, etc. All these probabilities stack. When you calculate the probability that mankind formed from cosmic dust purely by chance, you end up with a huge, huge number that would fill large volumes if written out by hand. You'd probably have better luck winning the lotto a hundred times in a row.
The more I looked at the universe and nature, the more I was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that it was built and designed by an intelligent being. This begged the following questions: What sort of life form would create an entire universe and for what purpose? I have established the fact that there is a Creator, so who is he? Yaweh? Bhudda? Vishnu? Mohommed? ET from the planet Zapatron? One god or many? What is the Creator made of? What are his REAL origins? Much time spent in personal research and deep thought resulted in my conversion to Christianity and a theory I have that seems to make sense and answer those questions. Please understand, I mean no hearsay. This is only a theory and still needs work at that. Anyhow,
As an aside, when an atheist asks you where did your God come from, ask them where their hydrogen atoms came from. Ask them where quarks and subatomic particles came from. Atheist or theist, all agree that SOMETHING has ALWAYS existed. Matter created from nothing violates physical laws (but according to my theory....more on that in a minute). So, we have established that in the Beginning (or shortly afterward), there was matter. There were quarks, subatomic particles, and energy. To understand the nature of this supreme being, I had to start here. Since the Creator cannot be a physical being, there were no physical hands that build the universe. A thought or spoken word have to have been used. But how? Well, although I do not have the source, I did hear of an experiment where scientists were studying quarks (a very, very small component of matter) and they noticed something very peculiar. Suppossedly, every time they spoke, they would see one or two quarks move as if in response to their voices. So, I figured the Creator spoke and manipulated quarks (lots of them) to create his Masterpiece.
Since God is not a physical being, it seems he is made of energy-- and highly likely an energy which exists throughout all the universe and in all things (omnipresent). One must ask how the strong force holds together all atoms. That alone seems to me to violate the law of Entrophy...nature's tendency toward chaos and decay. How did the force of attraction just "get there" and not allow the atom to fall apart? One can say positive and negative charge, etc...but how did the charge get there? Though far out it sounds, it is logical to believe GOD holds them together.
Anyhow, it seemed to me that this intelligent being made of a mysterious energy (spirit energy) and who has the ability to violate the laws of physics and create matter with a spoken word or thought, might better be known as "Yahweh". Why Yahweh, and not Bhuddah or ET? Well, the Bible describes the Creator in a way that logically makes sense. Ominipresent, Omiscient and Omnipotent. If you follow my theory, if the Creator can manipulate every small quark in the entire universe, he is omnipotent and all-powerful. The power to manipulate quarks means power over even life and death. The idea that Adam was designed to live forever makes perfect sense. The Creator has power over every atom, therefore can theoreticly build something literally INDESTRUCTABLE. By manipulating quarks, devine healing is possible, because your body is made of quarks. All matter is made up of quarks. All atoms are made of quarks. With the Creator, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!! And...the BIBLE says this, VERBATIM!
Yahweh must also be omniscient, or all knowing. The Bible says this and it makes logical sense. Since Yahweh is everywhere, one can assume he sees everything. He does not need natural eyes because he is energy/spirit and is in every atom.
Why did Yahweh create us? Maybe he was bored and got a little lonely out there hehe. Although I cannot pretend to understand the mind of God, I can assume some things. I feel that God is himself an artist and we and the universe are his masterpiece. The Bible describes us as the "apple of his eye" and that makes logical sense. There exists only Himself, his lesser spirit servents and his Creation. The Bible states that we were created "in his image". I find that to mean "able to reason and create things". What a fine peice of art-- creating artwork that can create art of its own! (By this reasoning, when I write music, I suppose I should be giving Yahweh the credit since he gave that ability to me lol)
One god or many? Again, christianity was my choice (or maybe God predestined that I make that choice?) because it is monotheistic and polytheism does not seem logical. If there were many gods, they would be warring with each other and our universe would be in serious trouble. Add 2 beings independent of each other who can throw quarks around by thought alone plus a grudge and you have disater. Given infinity, all things are theoreticly possible, so this would certainly happen sooner or later. Last time I checked, we never faced destruction of the universe (not counting, of course, the fact that we ARE in the last days...). Polytheism could easily lead into belief that the gods were aliens, like in Erik von Danaken's (sp?) book "Chariots of the Gods", but physical aliens could not have created our universe and also you'd still have the question as to how THEY got here.
Knowing the reality of the Creator's existance, I started going to church with a good buddy of mine so I could learn more, having adopted a much more spiritual outlook on life. Now I had to figure out which was the most logical-- and SCRIPTURAL-- denomination to me. After more deep thought, visiting many more different churches, and lots of personal Bible study, I find the denomination that fits best is "non-denominational' because a church must derive its authority directly from Yahweh and not a council/board/etc. Most non-denominational churches teach a view of salvation that I find logical and most accurately fit's Yahweh's Gospel: That man is naturally born with a depraved nature and can not enter Heaven on his or her own merits. Also, I look at it like this, bearing in mind this is just another one of my theories lol... Sin is spiritual entrophy. Yahweh can not allow this entrophy, this tendency toward moral chaos, in his presence. Given infinity, all things can theoreticly happen. Since souls will live forever, if there is even a speck of an amoral tendency, something bad WILL happen eventually and Yahweh can not have that. Hence Hell's existence-- a realm of pure entrophy and chaos like in the movie "Event Horizon" (nowadays that movie freaks me out to the point of sleeping with the light on and I'm a grown man. The reality of a Hell scares the daylights out of me).
After years knowing the gospel and not truelly following it, I eventually prayed to Yahweh and invited Christ into my heart, asking him to renew my spirit and change me, and also to remove any remaining doubts I still had. In effect, I said "Lord, I'm a vile sinner. Please wash my soul and save me....By the way, help my unbelief because part of my still wants to be atheist, even though I know the facts don't add up to that." At that instant, I knew....I KNEW the Creator of this universe had plans for me and my doubt was gone. Just like that. My faith grows stronger with each passing day. Seriously, when you know just HOW real Yahweh is, you take your religious life a bit more seriously. Nowadays, when I get even the slightest thought in my head that I may be just "getting all worked up over a non-existant deity", I then think to myself "Uh-Oh....that ol' DEVIL is up to his old tricks again." The Bible says that the heavens declare the work of God, and yes...they certainly do. Brother's...atheism is NOT logical. I became a FOOL in Yahweh's eyes all the while appearing very wise and learned to the "world", just like the Bible says "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools".
Glad to join the board. I'll be posting more later on as I have questions regarding the rapture, speaking in tongues (is it scriptural the way charismatics interpret it?), and so forth. Take care, y'all.

NoFool

Hi Nofool,

I really enjoyed reading your post.Welcome to the board and welcome to the Body of Christ .Looking forward getting to know ypu abit better..

In Him,
Mark-k

Hi nofool,

Praise God. I could so relate to your testimony.

You came a bit like l did. There's a scripture in Isaiah that says "come let us reason" I'm not even smart! and the Lord brought me to that place. For me it was Astrology....what a trip that was.

The guy you are looking for l believe is Carl Baugh. I think that's how you spell it. He has a Creation Research Museum in Texas? I think? You should be able to find him through Google with that info. He's got something called a hyperbaric biosphereic chamber that they use to recreate the atmosphere of the earth before Noah. It's fascinating. And wait till you read about the water!!! And what they discovered about it in it's original state!

And then the hell thing. Ya...boy....there are things l never talk about but once you really believe in hell it changes the whole picture...

I should research the scripture but it says something like "everything that was made he made." Which indicates that there are things that were in existence that weren't made. I'll find the scripture and post it but holidays are coming so it might have to wait a bit.

You found the key boy, about the spoken word. I found this out in a different way when l was into the occult. 'Thought creates form.' That's what we were taught. And when you speak it adds to it. Substance that is. Molecules come off of us constantly, whether from thought or words (which are the most powerful)

And when it says "In the beginning the word was with God and the Word was God" It really tells a scientific truth. I was saying in another post that the word was formulated in the mind of God therefore it had to be him. Substance. Quoting scripture might be more exciting then we thought.


Praise God. Let us know about your progress.

Very Interesting nofool . keep talking..

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. KJV

I think this implies, though we can't comprehend it and shouldn't pretend to, that something's weren't made but just exist. Like God himself.

You know the way people ask the Question "where did it all come from"??? and if God Exists then "Where did he come from"???

So the question is What is nothingness???

The answer I believe is that there is no such thing..It is just an illushion.
Take a glass of water and drink it all.The glass is empty right???Wrong..Becauze the water has only been replaced by air.Although it looks empty it is still full.

So there never was nothingness..What IS is just full with God.

[quote=Mark-k,Dec 27 2004, 08:59 AM]
You know the way people ask the Question "where did it all come from"??? and if God Exists then "Where did he come from"???

So the question is What is nothingness???

The answer I believe is that there is no such thing..It is just an illushion.
Take a glass of water and drink it all.The glass is empty right???Wrong..Becauze the water has only been replaced by air.Although it looks empty it is still full.

So there never was nothingness..What IS is just full with God.
[right][snapback]3999[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

haha I like that. It kind of moves along and backs up the ontological proof for God. Or... does it discredit it more? lol, yeah... it does. Oh, it discredits those dogmatic assertions! I knew it discredited some arugment! hah!

[quote=Guest,Jan 29 2005, 05:26 AM]
[quote=Mark-k,Dec 27 2004, 08:59 AM]
You know the way people ask the Question "where did it all come from"??? and if God Exists then "Where did he come from"???

So the question is What is nothingness???

The answer I believe is that there is no such thing..It is just an illushion.
Take a glass of water and drink it all.The glass is empty right???Wrong..Becauze the water has only been replaced by air.Although it looks empty it is still full.

So there never was nothingness..What IS is just full with God.
[right][snapback]3999[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

haha I like that. It kind of moves along and backs up the ontological proof for God. Or... does it discredit it more? lol, yeah... it does. Oh, it discredits those dogmatic assertions! I knew it discredited some arugment! hah!
[right][snapback]4961[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Looks to me like we got a troll here actively looking to discredit some "bumbling idiot christian folks". Brothers, the guest above is a shining example of someone who claims to be an atheist simply because he or she has a grudge with religious folks (possibly due to the fact that a vast majority of "christians" are really nothing but hypocrites, or maybe he can not accept the fact that our Creator behaves in ways that mankind has difficulty understanding). How do I arrive at this conclusion? Simple...he comes to a christian forum actively looking to pick a fight with the members. A REAL atheist, one of the purely intellectual type, will not try to impose his beliefs on others in adversarial ways. He believes what he believes and leaves people of other belief systems alone. The types that go around lurking in a christian forum looking to attack its members are of the emotional variety -- they decieve themselves into thinking there is no God becuase they "can not willinginly love such a monster" (Hell or Sodom and Gommorah for example), or some other reason rooted in emotion rather than pure logic.
Regarding the attempt at discrediting the glass of water scenario above, wether or not it is true does not disprove the existence of a Creator. As a matter of fact, even EVOLUTION, if it were true, would not prove a Creator does not exist. Enough with the red herring arguments. If you, Guest, think you have what it takes to prove anything, your on for an open debate right here. The burden of proof is on you, buddy. Present your case as to why you believe God does not exist and I'll show you the flaws in YOUR logic...and I promise I'll be civil about it.

We can't know everything. That's were faith and trust come in. We only use 10% of our brains Dennis said. And aren't some people more left brained then right?

[quote=Guest,Jan 29 2005, 04:26 AM]
[quote=Mark-k,Dec 27 2004, 08:59 AM]
You know the way people ask the Question "where did it all come from"??? and if God Exists then "Where did he come from"???

So the question is What is nothingness???

The answer I believe is that there is no such thing..It is just an illushion.
Take a glass of water and drink it all.The glass is empty right???Wrong..Becauze the water has only been replaced by air.Although it looks empty it is still full.

So there never was nothingness..What IS is just full with God.
[right][snapback]3999[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

haha I like that. It kind of moves along and backs up the ontological proof for God. Or... does it discredit it more? lol, yeah... it does. Oh, it discredits those dogmatic assertions! I knew it discredited some arugment! hah!
[right][snapback]4961[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

NoFool-
I enjoyed your post on accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior. Very well written and I have to grade your post with an A+, and I hope and pray that your post and message will insipre a lot of people!

By the way...I have not had time to read George Orwell's '1984', but will plan on reading it within the next couple months. I have heard he had such an amazing insight for his time.

Also, I wanted to point out a book by a former German Chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, titled- "Men and Powers, A Political Retrospective". Very informative autobiographical book!

You might be interested in checking it out!

The Bible says many verses regarding the word 'FAITH' that we can all be renewed of.................

"And Jesus said unto them, 'Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."~Matthew 17:20

"Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done'."~Matthew 21:21

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."~Matthew 21:22

Amen.

Miki-
Who is Dennis? AND-Who says that we all use 10% of our brain!! Yes I have heard of that so-called scientific reasoning before, and I happen to believe we use even less than that! HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh well, what a shame..perhaps God will explain why the vast un-used portion of our brain was never intended to be utilized at all!! I guess we will find out eventually! ~~

Let's ALL try to understand the entire perception of Philosohy-OR-shall we NOT!? Perhaps we can get one of our moderators of this board to explain the connection with Religion, Science, and Philosophy!...LOL...or...shall we leave that be!!!! Science is Science...and...........trying to prove anything without blind faith is Science, isn't it??????

I have to tell you of a class in Philosophy last Spring semester. I had this 70 year old professor who was teaching a basic Philosophy course in a Catholic private college who happen to bring up some interesting points.

One perspective of this example would be where Philosophy fits in between Science and Religion. Well, a good paradigm....he stated.....would represent a chair---with three legs....one of the legs, with the words-RELIGION, the other leg, with the word SCIENCE. Somewhere in this representation he presented the fact that the seat of the chair would be off balance without the third leg of PHILOSOPHY. The chair tends to lose it's balance without the understanding of Philisophy and will lose it's balance between the two...and that would be where PHILOSOPHY would come in.

Hmm, I'm still perplexed with the mystery of Philosophy, but it really does make you think. AND- Everybody has their own opinions and ideals regarding this type of thinking!

Anyways......I'll tell you of another representation later on.....of thinking outside the box............

Cheers!

NoFool,
I really enjoyed your story as well. It seems alot of us have been down that road of confusion. God did say seek knowledge. At one point of my life I didn't beleive that real evil existed...(Satan) the powerful influence in the air. So i got into the occults too, studying and tarah cards and astrology. But they still left me empty and with one question answered the answer I got still wasn't satisfying my curiousity. I was seeking the presence of God. Until I opened up my heart, went through much pain and suffering of not knowing the love of Christ, I broke down and confessed too and surrender to Jesus. Amazing grace, how wonderfully loved we are.
God Bless You

Evolution does not move me, quicken me, inspire me. It does not make me to be a better person. Darwin and the evolutionists did not love me when I was un-loveable. They didn't die a painful death for me. They didn't invent the Golden Rule. They had no pity for me when I failed to help the poor. They had no compassion for me when I had nothing to offer them.
They can't explain how the incredibly complicated living cell was invented. They can't explain a tenth of the living cell, much less make one. From nothing.

Jesus inspires me to love my neighbors, even my enemies. He taught me to love all people, including the un-lovely. He died for me when I was His enemy. He had compassion, love, and pity for me, even as I was striking at Him. He had nothing to gain from me, except my love for Him. I love Him, only because He first loved me. And He is teaching me to love others. He wanted to love me, and to be loved by me.
Un-selfish Love is beyond our understanding, but He has that Agape Love for us.

God is Love. Jesus is God. He is our Maker.

dennis manning

Amen Dennis

Dennis: He died for me when I was His enemy. He had compassion, love, and pity for me, even as I was striking at Him. He had nothing to gain from me, except my love for Him. I love Him, only because He first loved me. And He is teaching me to love others. He wanted to love me, and to be loved by me.
Un-selfish Love is beyond our understanding, but He has that Agape Love for us.

God is Love. Jesus is God. He is our Maker.


Hi Dennis:

Very moving stuff Dennis.

I felt the reality of Christ and His truth as I read the words above, especially: "He died for me when I was His enemy."

Amen Dennis, Amen !

sincerely,

Ray Martinez

Yes he is just like you too Larry! Let us remind others of the lives full of sickness that Nietzche and Darwin lived trying to disprove God. Thank you Kendemyer:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=1350

Per Ish's post:
"God is dead" - Nietzsche

"Nietzche is dead" - God