Iranian President Ahmadinejad is said to be quite mystical and apocalyptic. His foreign policy is reckless because is believes Islamic messiah figure Al-Mahdi will soon arise and subdue the earth. At a speech given to the UN a few days ago he and a cohort are said to have seen a green (the color of the prophet) ora come overhim. The whole article may be found www.newstatesman.com/200512050014.

They have their fundamentalists and secularists just like we do. But l thought Osama was suppose to be the Al-Mahdi.

Nah, Osama is too ancient (eldery). He probably will only live for 5 to 10 years tops before he passes away. Most likely Ahmadinejad believes that Al-Mahdi already walks the face of the earth- that'd certainly explain why he all of a sudden is threatening Israel (saying they should be wiped off the face of the earth, saying the loss of israel wouldnt even be a loss, sayin israel should be moved to europe, saying the holocaust never happened)- why such supreme arrogance? And of all times, why choose to start being arrogant openly so recently? Most likely he has reason to think he's safe- perhaps because his supposed 'Al-Mahdi' already exists? Assuming that's why, it'd be of great interest to determine who he thinks the Al-Mahdi is.

I find this part of the aforementioned article of interest in where President Ahmadinejad states something that should be alarming considering his position of power and the amount of Iranian support he enjoys:

-------
'Asked late last month how Iranians should prepare for the Mahdi, he replied: "They must be pure and devout." On other occasions, he has talked of reorienting the country's policies to be ready for judgement day, the equivalent of Tony Blair telling Britons to prepare for Christ's second coming.'
-------

"Reorienting the country's policies to be ready for judgement day"? I'd dearly love to know what exactly he means by it, or to the point, what he plans on doing to achieve that.

I also find this part of interest:

"On the last day when I was speaking, one of our group told me that when I started to say 'Bismillah Muhammad', he saw a green light come from around me, and I was placed inside this aura," he says. "I felt it myself. I felt that the atmosphere suddenly changed, and for those 27 or 28 minutes, all the leaders of the world did not blink. When I say they didn't move an eyelid, I'm not exaggerating. They were looking as if a hand was holding them there, and had just opened their eyes - Alhamdulillah!"

That was said by President Ahmadinejad. Thoughts?

Also, for those who don't want to have to log in to view the article at newstatesman.com, you can view the same exact article at:

http://www.channel4.com/news/special-repor...age.jsp?id=1262

Thank goodness for plagarism. I'm not saying I'm in support of it, I'm just sayin that plagarism sometimes is an effective counter against media's attempts at information flow control.

You've got a good eye Don...Why so open about it now. Maybe because they know they have Russian in their pocket....

Perhaps, since Russia is selling them missles as well helping them to bolster their defenses. There's something else you might find of interest regarding Russia- apparently Russia is now courting Asia:

http://today.reuters.com/business/newsarti...ASIA-RUSSIA.xml

Notice what the article says:

-----
'Russia is not formally part of the inaugural East Asia summit, which is being convened by the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) in the Malaysian capital on Wednesday.

But President Vladimir Putin will have a brief opportunity to address the summit, which comprises the 10 ASEAN states and Japan, China, South Korea, India, Australia and New Zealand.

The gathering, which some countries hope will become a new political and economic bloc, already represents about half the world's population and about a fifth of global trade.

Asked if it would one day lead to an Asian free-trade area, Abdullah said: "I certainly will not say that it won't happen."'
-----

Then this article says Russia did JUST sign an agreement with Asia:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...n=theworld&col=


Interesting stuff, no? And while searching for that article so I could give you the link, this caught my attention about rioting breaking out in Australia, a country we almost never hear negative news about:

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/st...255E661,00.html

-----
ANGRY crowds singled out and bashed people of Middle Eastern appearance at one of Australia's iconic beaches as racial tensions boiled over into mob violence.

Police were powerless to quell the violence, resorting to batons and capsicum spray to rescue people fleeing packs of attackers.

...

At least 5000 people converged on Sydney's Cronulla beach yesterday, after simmering anger between beach regulars flared last week.

...

Police reacted only to rescue the victims of the bashings, rushing them to safety through the front entrance of a local club.
-----

Targeting middle-eastern people? Meaning Arabs? Interesting stuff.

But what I'm so curious about is Iran themselves- why this statement that Iran's policies must be reoriented for judgement day? And how does he plan on doing that? Or am I just reading too much into this?

NEWS FLASH- I was poking around in the news.google.com section and I saw this:

http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/366/16599_India.html

--------
Russia and India join efforts to become strategic partners
12/09/2005 17:28

The two countries aim to launch large-scale defense projects and stand up for Iran's right to work on its nuclear program.
--------

Whoa, whoa, large scale defense projects, Iran's rights to work on their nuclear program, with India ALSO backing Iran? Crazy, crazy stuff.

Asia is the devils back up plan...

Ezekial 38 backfires in Russia's face so at the end China comes marching on down.

Makes sense, but how come does China protest against Russia becoming part of the Asian coalition?

Russia as part of the Asian coalition? Say it isn't so....hmm that would totally mess up the entire Eziekiel Gog-Magog war....Kings from the North- RUSSIA, Kings from the East- CHINA. Asian coalition? I need to research more current events.

You said "Say it isn't so"

As you wish: it ain't so.

First off, you see, China is NOT part of the asian coalition. So far, the asian coalition consists of mostly southeast asian countries including but not limited to India.

Second off, China is protesting Russia becoming part of that coalition.

So Eziekiel's prophecy of the Gog-Magog war is still entirely in the equation.

I know this might be side tracking the discussion a bit, but why do people believe that the Gog Magog war prophesised in the book of Eziekiel happens before the return of the Messiah Jesus?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hmmm..interesting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don you said:

I never doubted Ezekiel or the book.

You know what is important is to know about this Presdent of Iran:

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
محمود احمدی‌نژاد



Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (محمود احمدی‌نژاد; born October 28, 1956), also written Ahmadinezhad, is the sixth President of the Islamic Republic of Iran. He has been president since August 3, 2005.

Ahmadinejad was the mayor of Tehran from May 3, 2003 until June 28, 2005 when he was elected president. He is widely considered to be a religious conservative with Islamist and populist views. Ahmadinejad was a civil engineer and a professor at the Iran University of Science and Technology before his mayorship.

Politically, Ahmadinejad is a member of the Central Council of the Islamic Society of Engineers [1], but he has a more powerful base inside the Alliance of Builders of Islamic Iran (also known as Abadgaran). Ahmadinejad is considered one of the main figures in the alliance. The alliance was divided in supporting him and Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf in the first round of the presidential election, and while the members of the City Council of Tehran supported Ahmadinejad, the parliamentary representatives of Tehran supported Ghalibaf.

Ahmadinejad was elected President of Iran on June 24, 2005, in the second round of the 2005 presidential election over his rival, former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. Ahmadinejad won with 61.69% of about twenty-eight million votes with an official turnout of about 59.6%, in an election his opponents claim were marred by allegations of voter fraud.

Before the first round of voting, some 1,000 candidates were disqualified by the Iranian Council of Guardians, leaving seven candidates to officially run in the first round. However, some basic requirements, such as being an experienced politician, are checked after registration, and people without qualifications are not banned from registering. Rafsanjani had won the highest number of votes in the first round, while Ahmadinejad had secured 19.48% of the votes as the runner-up. Ahmadinejad's win was attributed to the popularity of his simple lifestyle and populist views amongst the poor and lower classes which viewed him as an alternative to Rafsanjani. Proponents see him as a modest well-educated religious man whose power has not corrupted him. They claim that he has strong and wide support among both ordinary and educated people in the country, and that he has chosen the most educated government of Iran compared to the previous presidents.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Platform
Ahmadinejad has generally sent mixed signals about his plans for his presidency, which some US-based analysts consider to have been designed to attract both religious conservatives and the lower economic classes. His campaign motto was "It's possible and we can do it" (می‌شود و می‌توانیم).

In his presidential campaign, Ahmadinejad took a populist approach, with emphasis on his own simple life, and had compared himself with Mohammad Ali Rajai, the second President of Iran — a claim that raised objections from Rajai's family. Ahmadinejad claims he plans to create an "exemplary government for the world people" in Iran. He is a self-described principlist; that is, acting politically based on Islamic and revolutionary principles. One of his goals is "putting the petroleum income on people's tables", referring to Iran's oil profits being distributed amongst the poor.

Ahmadinejad was the only presidential candidate who spoke out against future relations with the United States. Also, in an interview with the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting a few days before the elections, Ahmadinejad accused the United Nations of being "one-sided, stacked against the world of Islam." He has openly opposed the veto power given to the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. In the same interview, he mentioned that "It is not just for a few states to sit and veto global approvals. Should such a privilege continue to exist, the Muslim world with a population of nearly 1.5 billion should be extended the same privilege." In addition, he has defended Iran's nuclear program and has accused "a few arrogant powers" of attempting to limit Iran's industrial and technological development in this and other fields. In a question by a Shargh journalist about the release of political prisoners in case he becomes president, Ahmadinejad answered with a question: "Which political prisoners? The political prisoners in the United States?"

After his election he proclaimed, "Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen and the Islamic revolution of 1384 [the current Iranian year] will, if God wills, cut off the roots of injustice in the world." He said, "The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world." [2]

During his campaign for the second round, he said, "We didn't participate in the revolution for turn-by-turn government [...] This revolution tries to reach a world-wide government" [3]. Also he has mentioned that he has an extended program on fighting terrorism in order to improve foreign relations and has called for greater ties with Iran's neighbours and ending visa requirements between states in the region, saying that "People should visit anywhere they wish freely. People should have freedom in their pilgrimages and tours."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Personal life and service
Born in the Arādān village near Garmsar, the son of a blacksmith, his family moved to Tehran when he was one year old. He entered Iran University of Science and Technology (IUST) as an undergraduate student of civil engineering in 1976. He continued his studies in the same university, entering the MSc program for civil engineering in 1986, the same time he joined the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (see below), and finally receiving his PhD in Traffic and transportation engineering and planning. The graduate program was a special program for the Revolutionary Guards members funded by the organization itself. After graduation, Ahmadinejad became a professor at the civil engineering department at IUST.

In 1979, Ahmadinejad was the head representative of IUST to the unofficial student gatherings that occasionally met with the Ayatollah Khomeini. In these sessions, the foundations of the first Office for Strengthening Unity (daftar-e tahkim-e vahdat), the student organization of which several members behind seizure of the United States embassy which led to the Iran hostage crisis, were created. Ahmadinejad became a member of the Office of Strengthening Unity. Before the seizure of the embassy, Ahmadinejad had suggested a simultaneous or similar attempt against the Soviet Union embassy, but was voted down, resulting in independent pursuit of the idea by its proponents.

During the Iran-Iraq war, Ahmadinejad joined the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps in 1986. After training at the headquarters, he saw action in extraterritorial covert operations against Kirkuk, Iraq. Later he also became the head engineer of the sixth army of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps and the head of the Corps' staff in the western provinces of Iran. After the war, he served as vice governor and governor of Maku and Khoy, an Advisor to the Minister of Culture and Islamic Guidance, and the governor of the then newly established Ardabil province from 1993 to October 1997.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Early political career

Ahmadinejad was mostly an unknown figure in Iranian politics until he was elected Mayor of Tehran by the second City Council of Tehran on May 3, 2003, after a 12% turnout led to the election of the conservative candidates of Alliance of Builders of Islamic Iran in Tehran. During his mayorship, he reversed many of the changes put into effect by previous moderate and reformist mayors, putting serious religious emphasis on the activities of the cultural centers founded by previous mayors, going on the record with the separation of elevators for men and women in the municipality offices [4] and suggesting that the bodies of those killed in the Iran-Iraq war be buried in major city squares of Tehran. Such actions were coupled with popular acts, such as distributing free soup to the poor.

As the Mayor of Tehran, Ahmadinejad also became the manager in charge of the daily newspaper Hamshahri, dismissing Mohammad Atrianfar as the editor and replacing him with Alireza Sheikh-Attar. Ahmadinejad subsequently fired Sheikh-Attar on June 13, 2005, a few days before the presidential elections, for not supporting him for the post, replacing Sheikh-Attar with Ali Asghar Ash'ari, a previous Vice Minister of Culture and Islamic Guidance during the ministership of Mostafa Mirsalim. He fired Nafiseh Kouhnavard, one of Hamshahri's journalists, for asking Khatami about the "red lines" of the regime and illegal parallel intelligence agencies, a question Ahmadinejad didn't consider appropriate. Kouhnavard was later accused of by hard-liners of spying for Turkey and the Republic of Azerbaijan. [5]

Ahmadinejad is known to have quarreled with Khatami, who then barred him from attending meetings of the Board of Ministers, a privilege usually extended to mayors of Tehran. He has publicly criticized Khatami for ignorance of the daily problems of the general public.

After two years as Tehran mayor, Ahmadinejad was shortlisted in a list of sixty-five finalists for World Mayor 2005 [6] out of the 550 nominated mayors. Only nine mayors were from Asia.

Ahmadinejad resigned from his post as the mayor of Tehran after his election to the presidency. His resignation was accepted on June 28, 2005 and in September 2005, the Tehran City Council elected Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf with 8 out of 15 votes as the 12th Mayor of Tehran.

Presidency

Ahmadinejad became the president of Iran on August 3, 2005, receiving the approval of Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, during which celebration he kissed the hand of Khamenei, the first Iranian president who has kissed Khamenei's hand and the second Iranian president to kiss a supreme leader's hand (the first was Mohammad Ali Rajai, who kissed the Ayatollah Khomeini's hand). Ahmadinejad was widely perceived at the time of his election to be Khamenei's protege.[7].

In the first announcement after his presidency, Ahmadinejad asked the public servants not to post his photographs and pictures in governmental offices and use the pictures and photos of Ayatollah Khomeini and Ayatollah Khamenei only.

Ahmadinejad completed the requisite ceremonies of becoming president on August 6, when he took vow before the Majlis to protect Iran's official religion (Shia Islam), the Islamic Republic regime, constitution. From August 3 to August 6, Mohammad Reza Aref, Khatami's First Vice President, was Acting President.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Improving relations with Russia

Ahmadinejad has taken moves to help strengthen relations with Russia, setting up a headquarters expressly dedicated to the purpose in October 2005. He has worked with Vladimir Putin on resolving the Iran nuclear issue and both Putin and Ahmadinejad have expressed a desire for more mutual cooperation on issues involving the Caspian Sea

*************************************

Given I've only posted a little bit through Wikipedia....but this turd has got a long rap sheet. I wanted to highlight the main stuff especially his involvement with Russia. Shall post more later........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad

I will take a shot at this. If we look at Eze 38

Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

and compare this with Mat 24

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

and compare Rev 6

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

and

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

and

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

All these things being prior to the seventh trumpet. This is the best I could do on short notice.

Hello rtkiii66

I can see how you see similarities between Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 6. But for me there is a portion of scripture in the book of Revelation that is more similar.

Revelation 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.

Now Gog Magog is mentioned once in the OT in Ezekiel 38 and again in the Revelation 20. In revelation 20 this great battle and slaughter happens After the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus. But the naming of Gog Magog is not the only interesting fact that leads me to believe that Ezekiel 38 happens at the end of the 1000 years. Lets read:

Ezekiel 38
1 Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6 Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

Stop there. Now it mentions the troops from Persia Ethiopia and Libya. Why does the prophecy not mention the Egyptians? Where are they Syrians? or Sinar/Iraq? Where are all these peoples? Are the Libyans going to march through Egypt to attack Israel while the whole Egyptian nation sits quietly as the tanks roll by? Are the Iraqi's going to be doing the same when the Persians head west to Israel? And likewise is Syria and Lebanon going to take no part with the armies of the north? What has happened to these nations like Egypt and Syria? Could it be at the time of this war that these nations no longer exist? that they where destroyed 1000 years before and their lands where incorporated into the Messianic Kingdom? Take the time now to read Ezekiel 32 starting from verse 11 to the end.

God promised to the descendants of Abraham a promised land that was far bigger than the one that He established for them in the time of Moses. lets read about it.

Genesis 15
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates

So God has promised the descendants of Abraham will have a Land that includes the Nile and the Euphrates. Now Persia borders the land of the Euphrates to the east and Libya borders the land of the Nile to the west and Ethiopia borders the land of the Nile to the south. So at the time of Ezekiel 38 Libya Ethiopia and Persia will all border the Greater Messianic kingdom

So the reason that the nations like Egypt and Syria are not mentioned in Ezekiel 38 is because they will have long been destroyed 1000 years before the battle detailed in Ezekiel 38.

Now let us continue to read Ezekiel 38:

7 “Prepare yourself and be ready, you and all your companies that are gathered about you; and be a guard for them. 8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

Now stop."visited". Who is going to visit them in the latter years? lets read Revelation 20 again:

Revelation 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them

Also note how Ezekiel describes the condition of safety of the people dwelling in Israel: "now all of them dwell safely." Does that describe the state of affairs of Israel today?? No not in the slightest. But to make the distinction more clear read on for the next 2 verses that more clearly describe the idyllic situation that will prevail in Israel at this time:

Ezekiel38
9 You will ascend, coming like a storm, covering the land like a cloud, you and all your troops and many peoples with you.”
10 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will make an evil plan: 11 You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’

With no walls? no bars nor gates? Look at Israel today look at the walls, the barbed wire, the compounds, the bars, the perilous state of security. Do the people of Israel dwell in peace and safety? Or in a state of siege and under threat of terror?

What kind of society needs no walls no bars or even gates? Israel today or Israel during the Reign of The Messiah Jesus? Come to think of it does any society today live in peace and saftey with no need for security walls or bars or gates?

Ezekiel 38
12 to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land. 13 Sheba, Dedan, the merchants of Tarshish, and all their young lions will say to you, ‘Have you come to take plunder? Have you gathered your army to take booty, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to take great plunder?’”’

During the 1000 year rule of the Messiah Jesus, we are told that many of the nations will give up their precious things and make great offering of the wealth of the nations to the Messianic kingdom. Will it be all this wealth that they will be seeking to plunder, great plunder?


I believe most people have got the timing of this Ezekiel 38 battle wrong. It is not soon at all but fore tells of the final satanic rebellion that will happen at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Greetings Adstar and rtkiii66,

Your post is a very good point as it's very similar to another thread (see. Christian-Forum.net > Bible Studies > General Bible Study: Topic "Basic Beliefs Of Administator Of Forum" posted by Shekel )

Could both of you look at that thread and comment there with your inputs? The was questions about the rapture, which in my earlier Christian walk, I believe in the rapture, then I didn't believe in it, then Marta showed me some scripture and now I believe in the rapture again. The problem now is that their are some implications in believing when the rapture takes place because I think it will spark some debate in this forum. I think we can all explore this subject and come to the startling truth that I pray God shall reveal.

In Christ's name. Amen.

Robert.

Adstar
Thank you. There is a work being done on this forum. I have seeked God to show me the truth. Piece by piece a large picture is being put together. My question is this: Is the LORD in Eze 38 speaking from the end to the begining of this event? look at these verses:

Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD; every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will cause to rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many peoples that are with him, an overflowing shower, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Is this a reference to the tribulation to get people to turn to Him?

Hello Robert!!

Yes, I will look at that thread and make comments there.

Hello rtkiii66



I see it as God's wrath being poured out. I see a distinction between the Wrath of God and tribulation. We followers of the Messiah Jesus face tribulation from the world which follows satan. persecution is tribulation to me. While wrath is Gods vengeance against those who have caused tribulation or seek to cause us tribulation. So the armies of Gog Magog will face the wrath of God because they will be following the deception of a released satan, They will have embraced evil and be filled with an evil intent. To kill and to plunder a peaceful people of God.

I don't think any of the Gog Magog army will repent just as i do not think any of the army of the anti-christ at Armageddon will repent and be saved. I think that they will be beyond salvation because God will have given them over totally to the evil desires in their hearts and the deceiving lies of satan.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hello Robert



Robert i believe in the rapture. I believe in a post-trib rapture or a second coming rapture. I find that many people are very passionate about their beliefs in relation to rapture timing. There has been threads dealing with rapture timing in this forum recently and debate was "sparked" greatly. I will seek out and read the thread you have directed me to I hope i can offer some valued input for you.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

This has really been a blessing to me, teaching from Mike Bickle, Pastor IHOP, KC MO:

II. JESUS RAPTURES THE SAINTS AT THE SOUND OF THE LAST TRUMPET

A. The Rapture describes what happens to all the saints worldwide related to Jesus’ Second Coming. As Jesus descends from heaven, He will catch up or rapture the saints to meet Jesus in the air as they are instantly changed by receiving resurrected bodies. The word Rapture comes from a Latin word raptus, "snatching away" (the Greek word is harpazo). We will see Jesus in a face to face way as we are gathered to Him forever (1 Thess. 2:19; 4:17; 5:10; 2 Thess. 2:1).
God will bring with Him those who sleep (died) in Jesus. 15…We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (1 Thes. 4:14-17)

B. Jesus will rapture all the saints on earth when He brings all the saints with Him from heaven.
At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. (1 Thess 3:13)
Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You. (Zech. 14:5)

C. Jesus will come with all the angels (Matt 13:41; 24:31; 25:31; Mk. 8:38; 13:27; Lk. 9:26; 2 Thess 1:7-10). Jesus’ procession in the sky with billions of angels will show forth the overwhelming power and might of His army.
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him (Mt. 25:31)

D. Jesus will send out His angels with a specific role in gathering the saints to the sky from the ends of the earth and in gathering unbelievers to remove them from earth by killing them.
He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mt. 24:31)

E. Jesus will rapture the saints when the Trumpet sounds (Mt. 24:31; 1 Thes. 4:16; Isa. 27:13).
We shall all be changed...in a moment...at the Last Trumpet. For the Trumpet will sound, and the dead (saints) will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

F. Paul tells us that the Rapture occurs in association with the Last Trumpet (1 Cor. 15:50-52; 1 Thes. 4:16-17; Isa. 27:13; Rev. 11:15-17; 10:7). The 7th Trumpet is the Last Trumpet in the series of seven (Rev. 8-9; 11:15) that are numbered by John in Revelation.

G. Paul said that in a moment “all” shall be “changed.” What specifically happens in a moment?
We shall all be changed…52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye… (1 Cor. 15:51)
“In a moment” qualifies how fast that redeemed individuals will be “changed,” not how much time it takes for “all” the Church collectively to see Him and be changed, thus completing the worldwide Rapture.

III. DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING

A. The Second Coming describes what Jesus does when He permanently “comes” back to earth. The Rapture describes what happens to the Church when Jesus first “appears” in the sky. Jesus’ Second Coming by definition is a “coming” to earth the second time. It is not merely for a brief appearing in the sky, but His “coming” is to accomplish a long term mission on earth.

B. Some think of the Second Coming of Jesus as only consisting of the Rapture of the Church. They think only of Jesus appearing in the sky to catch up His people that they may all return to heaven. The Rapture is a significant occurrence within a larger series of events that I refer to as the “Second Coming Procession.”

C. Many assume Jesus will appear simultaneously to all the peoples of the earth at the same moment as He instantaneously finishes all the activities involved in the Second Coming. The result of establishing a biblical paradigm about the End-Times is that many passages fit without needing to dismiss them either by spiritualizing them or just ignoring them. Many passages of Scripture do not make sense if Jesus instantaneously completes all the activities associated with His Second Coming.

IV. GET THE RIGHT PERSPECTIVE (PARADIGM) ABOUT THE END-TIMES

A. The challenge in understanding the Second Coming is in getting the right paradigm. The necessary paradigm is in understanding that Jesus will rule the earth with the natural human processes not suspended, yet significantly enhanced by the supernatural dimension of the Spirit. We see aspects of this when Jesus appeared with His resurrected body (Jn. 20-21; Acts 1).

B. As Gentile believers, our most natural paradigm is to think of worshipping Jesus as God in the supernatural conditions of heaven. We emphasize Jesus’ deity as the Son of God. Whereas, the Jewish paradigm, thinks of reigning with the Messianic King as a man in the natural conditions of the earth. They emphasize the Messiah’s humanity as the Son of David. The full truth is only seen when these two paradigms are brought together.

V. THREE TYPES OF PEOPLE ARE ON EARTH WHEN JESUS APPEARS IN THE SKY

A. The redeemed will be raptured during Jesus’ worldwide procession across the sky.

B. The reprobate who took the mark of the Beast will be judged and then killed (some executed).

C. The resistors are the unsaved survivors (Jews and Gentiles) of the Great Tribulation who refused to worship the Antichrist. The Scripture refers to them as “those who are left” or “who remain.” These will have an opportunity to be converted after Jesus returns and then populate the Millennial earth (Isa. 4:3; 10:20; 11:11; 49:6; 65:8; 66:19; Jer. 31:2; Ezek. 20:38-42; 36:36; Dan. 12:1; Amos 9:9-10; Joel 2:32; Zech. 12:14; 13:8; 14:16).



The negative to this view is that some will say "how can Paul correlate the last trumpet of Revaltion when it was written much later"? I don't think any of us really knows how much Paul knew or didn't know about the end-times, but we all know the Spirit that gave him revalation about the end-times is the same Spirit that gave John the Book of Revalation.

Blessings,

Caneman

so then there is no interruption between the rapture and the second coming,

Insofar as the Second Coming kicks off with the Rapture ?

Dear Ancient of Days,......I too will take a shot at what I perceive on this subject.........................When the Isaiah 17;1 war transpires.....I believe that Javier Solana will activate "Recommendation 666"..............Which gives him dictorial powers over Europe.............At this point in time.....Solona is slated to confirm a 7 year agreement with Israel and the many on January 1,2007......But it is possible that date could be set to a later date, because of the Isaiah 17;1 war.
In the aftermath of this coming war.......Its possible that solona could convince the arabs to come to peace with Israel.....possibly thru this 7 year agreement?.....In result.......Israel tears down their barriers...........................But I still have a problem!!!......................When the Ezekial 38 war comes to pass.....Israel is instructed to burn the weapons for 7 years.................If we place the Ezekial 38 war, from day 1....lets say........the day the 7 year tribulation begins........My question is;.........how would Israel burn those weapons for a continual 7 years,if at the mid point,when the abomination of desolation, the jews are instructed to flee!...............This would place the Ezekial38 war at minimum.....three and a half years prior to the seven year agreement..................This is a puzzle for me,....but as it stands........Solona is to confirm a 7 year agreement January 1, 2007.....................................If this is what we believe it is.....then as a pre-tribulation believer.............the rapture would transpire sometimes before that date. But all of us know in our hearts.....that Jesus is even now.......at the door.......................................benny

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NUCLEAR WAR-FEAR
Reports: U.S. preparing
military strike on Iran
German press speculates dispatch of officials
to Turkey, Pakistan meant to prepare allies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 31, 2005
5:25 p.m. Eastern



© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

While the U.S. has always refused to take the military option off the table in dealing with Iran, the German press is reporting new developments that indicate the U.S. has gone from acknowledging the possibility of action against Tehran's suspected clandestine nuclear weapons program to preparing its allies for a strike.

According to Der Spiegel, the German daily, reports of a pending strike escalated following Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's recent statements that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map and his calls for Israelis to be relocated to Europe.


On Dec. 23, a journalist for the German news agency DDP, who is also an intelligence expert, cited "western security sources" in a report claiming CIA Director Porter Goss asked Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to provide full intelligence cooperation and exchange for a possible air strike on Iran's nuclear and military facilities.

Goss reportedly provided Turkey with three dossiers at the Dec. 12 meeting containing evidence Tehran is cooperating with the Islamic terror network al-Qaida, as well as information about the current status of Iran's weapons program. German security sources, it is reported, say Goss assured Erdogan Turkey would be alerted to any air strikes, should they occur, a few hours before they were launched. Goss also gave the Turkish government the "green light" to strike the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) in Iran if the U.S. proceeds.

The governments of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Oman and Pakistan were also informed in recent weeks that air strikes are a "possible option," but no timeline was provided

Ahmadinejad's anti-Semitic speeches and claim the Holocaust is a "myth," it is speculated, have cemented the view in Washington that Iran would not back down in a nuclear showdown and Tehran is simply trying to buy time by continuing its talks with the Europeans.

"I would be very surprised if the Americans, in the mid-term, didn't take advantage of the opportunity delivered by Tehran," said a high-ranking German military official. "The Americans have to attack Iran before the country can develop nuclear weapons. After that would be too late."

In the January 2005 New Yorker, journalist Seymour Hersh reported that clandestine American commando groups were already on the ground in Iran, marking likely targets – a report the Bush administration attempted to play down as containing inaccurate statements but did not dispute.

In recent weeks, the number of visits to Ankara by American and NATO security officials has increased significantly. The head of the FBI, NATO General Secretary Jaap De Hoop Scheffer and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice have made stops in the Turkish capital.



Joining the speculation in the German press, the left-nationalist Turkish newspaper Cumhuriyet, though unable to discover the substance of their talks, noted the unusually long meeting Goss and Erdogan held with, "Now it's Iran's turn."

As reported by WorldNetDaily, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has ordered his defense forces to plan for a pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear weapons facilities by the end of March – the time intelligence sources say Tehran will be able to begin producing nuclear weapons.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=48142

And do you think they will sit around and wait to be stricken in March?

I don't....Hold on to your hats!

Of course not. You know what is great about the media? That they forewarn Iran of our planned nuclear attacks. DUH!

Doesn't that just make ya want to slap them? Why on earth do they broadcast this information for all to see. It's like they want all coutnries to know our plans and our weakness. When they had clips of airplane travel for the holidays they kept letting everyone know that now you can this back on the planes and that back on the planes and the news rejporter would say something like "well couldn't a terrorist use this in an attack?" Well, now ya just gave them the heads up that they could

Hi HumbleBob...this is Marie...and you didn't ask me...but I jumped in anyway...I don't know if this will help....but lets us look at where Christians are divided....

1# there are five different beliefs
2# Most center around the tribulation

They are as follows...
1#Pre-Tribulationism.....All Christians will be taken in the Rapture before the seven-year tribulation.
2# Partial Rapture......The Rapture occures before the tribulation, but only true "spiritual" Christians will be taken while other Christians will remain through the tibulation.
3#Mid-tribulationism...All Christians will be taken in the Rapture in the middle (after the first 31/2years) of tribulation.
4#Pre-wrath Rapture....All Christians will be taken in the Rapture approximately three fourths of the way through the tibulation.
5#Post-tribulationism....The Christians will be Raptured at the end of the seven-year tribulation.

Alrighty then..... I take a big breath... I jump feet first in the deep end of the pool

This is why I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture......

1# God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
A. The first 42 months is the wrath of the Lamb (Revelations6:16)
B. The second 42 months is the wrath of God (Revelations 14:10)
The wrath of the Lamb is poured out first because of the Gentile nations' treatment of the chuch. The wrath of God is poured out the final 42 months because of the treatment of the Gentile nations against Isreal.
2# The church is not mentioned after chapter three in the book of Revelations
A. We are the body of Christ on earth (I Corinthians 12:27)
B. We will be the bride of Christ in heaven (Revelation 21:2)
3# The tribulation is a time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble
A. Jacob's trouble was two time frames of seven years each (Genesis29)
B. The first seven he worked for Rachel and received Leah (Genesis 29:25)
C. The second seven he worked for Rachel and received Rachel (Gen.29:28)
4# The theme in the Scripture is that the righteous can escape the wrath
A. True believers (the church) will escape the wrath of the Lamb (luke21:36)
B. A Jewish remnant will escape the wrath of God (Revelation 14:1)
5# God seals what is His
A. The chruch is sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14)
B. A Jewish remnant is sealed with the seal of God (Revelation 7:14)
One of the greatest evidence of pre-tribulation Rapture is the Jewish Wedding.
This information comes from Perry Stone......but I have read hundreds of books over the years that on the Rapture.. this information....is simple and easier to undrerstand....at least it is for me.

Hi Marie,
You are welcome to jump in on this or any other thread, I hope, as I believe discussions about Christ our Lord will further grow our spirit in him.

I appreciate your view as I did once think the pre-trib rapture. Not that it really matters what is believed as long Jesus Christ and faith in him is the message.

My belief in the post trib is only recent and is based upon the years of my Christian walk and seeing how God has worked in my life and how he reveals himself in the history of mankind.

My realization occured when I began to see how many of the prophecies in Revelations speaks of events that have already happened in our past, but was the future for John's time. Rev chapter 6 for example speaks of the time during the rise of the Roman Empire and its conversion to Christianity sometime in 350 AD, which of course led to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Parts of chapter 14 as you referred to is not quite clear cut to me. The 144,000 presented before God is dificult to discern when that had or when it will occur, but I am inclined to believe that too has happened already.

If you study the pattern of Revelations, John presents the plagues in three intervals, seals, trumpets, and bowls. With each interval of the plagues is an intermission of sorts; a narrative interlude before the seventh plague is presented. For example in the first interval of the plagues there are seals. After the sixth seal is broke there follows the heavens departing as a scroll, stars falling, etc, and then a narrative interlude, which in this case describes the sealing of the 144,000.

Then follows the seventh seal which ushers the next interval of the plagues, the trumpets. Again is the same pattern where a narrative interlude follows the sixth trumpet, in this case the narrative interlude is of the angel and the little book Rev 10 and goes till chapter 15 before the next and final interval of the plagues are introduced; the bowls. Only in the inerval of the bowls are the plagues issued without an interlude.

If you look at the history of mankind for nearly 2000 years the sequences of the plagues and events in between line up. The Angel and the little book is the religious Protestant movement started by Martin Luther. It's significance was the challenge to the Catholic church as an oppressive institution back then. Another example, much earlier, is described in the sounding of the fifth trumpet when a star falls from heaven holding the key to the abyss. This happened metaphorically around 650 AD (my timelines are a few decades off) with the founding of Mohammedism or Islam. It's a religion that clouds the mind like the dark smoke rising out of the abyss, as it confuses those who follow it. The god of this plague is named Apollyon or the destroyer, which would even explains why Islamic fundamentalism is so prone to violence. Even the metaphor description of a falling star is appropriate, for Islamic pilgrims follow the tradition of traveling to Mecca in observance of all things, a meteor, which is a fallen star.

I believe history to this day places mankind at the pouring of the seventh bowl, and its affects are just coming into full swing. My point is if many of the Revelation prophecies already happened then when is the rapture, which is why I believe in a post tribulation rapture.

When will rapture occur? Of course that's an answer only God would know, but how it will happen I believe the answer is in Exodus 12, and I am thinking verse 12.

I guess only time will tell how all this will play out. May Christ keep our faith whole. Amen.

HB

Marie says:

3# The tribulation is a time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble
A. Jacob's trouble was two time frames of seven years each (Genesis29)
B. The first seven he worked for Rachel and received Leah (Genesis 29:25)
C. The second seven he worked for Rachel and received Rachel (Gen.29:28)

Miki says:

14 years? What am l missing...? I want to agree but l've never been able to but my finger on the scriptures?
Shekel makes reference to this as well but l never got it?

Anybody else know this and get it?

I know about the Rachel and Leah part...It's the 14 years l'm struggling with.

Humble Bob- I think you're post was right on!

You said:



I've studied a bit on this.... and I think that 1. it has/is happening now and 2. that they are chosen out of the earth (so 144,000 people walking around right now) because they are such Godly people, to help spread his message in the last days.

Revelation 14: (King James Version)
3.And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4.These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5.And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6.And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7.Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


So I'm thinking that the new song is the everlasting gospel... or the original, untainted, strictly biblical christianity as God intended it before religion became so inundated with untruths.

The remnant church.

vs. 7 tells us that judgement is now. The 144,000 are "from among men the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." ..... so they are the first judged righteous and are charged with carrying the new song to the world.

Regarding this part: vs. 4.These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.


Symbolically, "women" are churches. So I think maybe these 144,000 don't come out of any particular church.... aren't tainted with misteachings. Rather, God picks them out of the world (virgins.... no church experience) teaches them the "new song" himself and uses them to spread this pure gospel to the earth.

Marie- Please jump in anytime!! We are here to discuss. I understand your logic and it is very good but I interpret a few things differently.

Like "God has not appointed us to wrath".... I think he is saying we won't experience the plagues(in Rev. 16) from him sent upon this earth but we will be here.

A replay of the plagues that fell on Egypt but not on the israelites. Pharoahs heart was hardened (like most of the world now) so God sent plagues due to his unbelief. He sent plague after plague until Pharoah did believe.

This will be repeated in the end days but believers will not be "appointed ... to wrath."

Some will be brought before kings and leaders (like Daniel and his friends) and some will even be martyred but all will be to God's glory. The unwaivering faith of these saints will be a testament to unbelievers unto the power , mercy and glory of the One true God.

The thing to remember is that through these trials believers are promised the outpouring and manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 4 (King James Version)

14. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

So it seems to me that being persecuted by men could actually be a huge blessing because at that time we will recieve what we need from the Holy Spirit in order to endure and I believe, be more filled with him than we can begin to imagine... the closeness we have with the Lord in times of persecution by the ungodly will circumvent any "physical" pain!

Remember stephens experience?

Acts 7 (King James Version)
55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

What an experience!!

Regarding the jewish wedding.... instead of literal Jews we think of today I feel that the Jews in the new testament refer to all believers... all of Christs true children.... all those saved... you and me and the other believers in this wateringhole!!

So the Jewish wedding you speak of is at the second coming when Christ comes for his bride!


that's what I see......

Yes He will keep us from wrath but He does not keep us from tribulation.

Jesus said:

John 16
33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Too many people get the two words mixed up.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days