The Australian

Please forgive my sins, begs Van from beyond the grave
Rick Wallace
08dec05

MOURNERS at the funeral of Nguyen Tuong Van learned how the hanged heroin-trafficker went to the gallows with a peaceful smile after begging forgiveness from those he had hurt.

The man who left Australia in 2002 and made a fatal mistake was farewelled by more than 2000 people at St Patrick's Cathedral in Melbourne yesterday.
He had become a potent symbol for community disgust at the death penalty meted out to him in Singapore last week and the drug trade itself.

But in a passage written at Changi prison in the final two hours of his life, and read out at the service, Van included no warning for others aiming to raise some quick cash.

Penned by a man who had found God on death row, the heavily religious diary extract avoided any mention of his thoughts on drugs and the death penalty. Instead, it revealed a complete and tranquil acceptance of his fate.

"Dear brothers and sisters, to one and all whom have fought so hard for my life, to all who have prayed and those I have hurt, please forgive my sins and accept my humble apologies," he wrote.

"I smile now as I prepare myself to return to the Lord ... These shall be my last words now. But I will see you again."

The congregation inside the giant neo-Gothic cathedral also learned that Van had adopted the baptismal name Caleb in prison.

Father Peter Hansen told mourners Caleb - who was rewarded for his faith in God with passage to the promised land after 40 years of wandering the desert - was an apt name for a man who had found his courage.

"There was a period of Van's life when he was not a virtuous man ... but human beings can change and they can change for the better. This was Van," Father Hansen said.

Van's brother, Khoa, sat composed in his seat during the requiem until a special request from his twin brought tears to his eyes. Van had asked mourners - many of whom wore white, the traditional colour of grief in Vietnam - to hug one another and introduce themselves instead of simply shaking hands.

Khoa, whose debts 25-year-old Van said he hoped to repay when he chose to smuggle almost 400g of heroin into Australia through Singapore in December 2002, broke down as friends and family embraced him. His mother, too, had to wipe away the tears as she was hugged by mourners.

The coffin was carried to the hearse by Khoa, lawyers Lex Lasry QC and Julian McMahon, and friends of the family. Van was laid to rest in a private burial.

State Labor MPs Bruce Mildenhall, Richard Wynne and Sang Nguyen defied community criticism to attend the service.

Last nite, "Tookie", an ex-gang-member in California, was executed by lethal injection.
Gov Schwartzenegger did not stop the execution.

Many people wanted the Gov to save Tookie's life.

**********

Is it right to "reverse" and "take back" the death penalty? ...., if the convict is repentant, sorry, and is doing a "good work" now?

********

The sinner (each one of us) deserves death for our sins, and the penalty for sin (death) MUST be paid.
So, either I must die for my sins, OR a sinless man (Jesus) might substitute for me.

My point is: Jesus makes certain that **somebody** pays the penalty, EVEN IF JESUS HIMSELF MUST PAY IT.

********

Likewise, Tookie deserved death, as per California Law. If we reverse that sentence, NOBODY pays for Tookie's murders. That's un-righteous. Jesus wouldn't approve.

in my opinion

dennis manning

Blessings Dennis

In my humble opinion, I believe that Tookie should have been spared as an example of the mercy we all, saved and unsaved, received from Christ. Granted, looking at this from an earthly point-of-view, the court determined that he murdered these people and his penalty should be death. But it is very few people who try to actively rectify the life they have lived. Tookie was an activist against gangs at the end of his life and the amount of children he detered from that lifestyle saved far more lives and pain than he inflicted. Let's say, for example, he detered ten children from that lifestyle who had the potential of killing four people themselves. (all of this is hypothetical because we have no way of actually knowing) That's forty people and forty familys and forty groups of friends. The crimes the court convicted him of were atrocious and there's no excuse. I am in no way making light of the deaths of these people and the pain their families and friends have and are experiencing. But I am not an advocate of death (I'm not pro- or anti-death penalty). Why? Because my GOD, my Father is not. If HE was then I don't believe HE would have sent HIS Son to die for us. See, Christ already died for Tookie and covered his sins. So, yes, Somebody has already died and paid that penalty. If Tookie gave his life to GOD then GOD HIMSELF doesn't even remember what Tookie did. GOD said HE would remove our sins from us as far as the east is from the west and remember them no more. This world does not have mercy. It does not know what true mercy is. All of us deserve to die under some earthly law. We just weren't caught by man. But GOD saw it and HE had mercy and chose to allow us to live.

In this world there is no rectification or repentance. We as children of GOD should be looking at our fellow man just as GOD looks at us. I tend to be judgmental, just as everyone is, but GOD layed it on my heart about a year ago to pray that I see everyone individually the way GOD sees each one of us. When I began praying that prayer GOD opened my eyes and heart and a compassion overcame me. I still struggle with being judgmental, but everytime I see it overcoming me I pray that I see with GOD's eyes. It's almost too much for me to bare because I just cannot understand how GOD still loves us. And recently I've been brought to tears several times when I see people who choose to live outside of GOD committing heinous acts against others and knowing that if they don't change their ways then they'll have to stand before GOD and give an account of their actions. Forget eternal damnation. Just the fact that they will have to stand before GOD and answer to HIM as to why they did these things.

I pray that Tookie gave his life to GOD before he passed away. The earthly law demanded his death and the earthly law was fulfilled. As I said earlier, I'm not pro-death penalty and I'm not anti-death penalty. I choose not to hold an opinion on that issue. The earthly laws are what they are. As children of GOD I feel we should be concerned with fulfilling GOD's Will and not earthly laws. We are in the world but not of the world. Tookie's execution is not going to bring peace to the familys and friends of the victims. GOD gives peace. Tookie was worth more alive than he is dead. What is wrong with him continuing the work he had begun with the children? Is this world so focused on fulfilling the price of death as opposed to bringing life? I shudder as I know the answer. Just think back to Paul. He was murdering Christians left and right, but GOD chose to use him to spread HIS Word. We should follow GOD's example. Tookie had a hand in so much evil, but GOD chose to use him to spread a message.

In GOD,
LordCome

I am sure that you know about the thief on the cross who repented and said, "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom!" and Jesus responded, "This day you shall be with Me in paradise."
Jesus also said,; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Those that truly confess and believe in a death bed confess have nothing to fear and we do not have to fear for them. Christ, and His mercy, keeps them safe.
justaservant

" See, Christ already died for Tookie and covered his sins. So, yes, Somebody has already died and paid that penalty. If Tookie gave his life to GOD then GOD HIMSELF doesn't even remember what Tookie did. GOD said HE would remove our sins from us as far as the east is from the west and remember them no more. This world does not have mercy. It does not know what true mercy is. All of us deserve to die under some earthly law. We just weren't caught by man. But GOD saw it and HE had mercy and chose to allow us to live.

In this world there is no rectification or repentance. We as children of GOD should be looking at our fellow man just as GOD looks at us."


Do you believe that God gave man the power to rule amongst man AND let God judge in the life after?

This is a gray area for some because the bible is for the death penalty but its a personal feeling for others.

This world has it's earthly laws and GOD tells us to abide by them as long as they don't require us to violate HIS law. The bible 'advocates' the death penalty in the Old Testament because that was part of the law, but the New Testament tells us that Christ fulfilled the law when HE died on the cross. HE was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. That death penalty was fulfilled. If this is not the case then we all are damned to hell because Christ's death on the cross would be for naught. It's about mercy and not death. Man has been given the power to rule here on this earth, but we must remember that this world is in the hands of satan right now. We, Children of GOD, are in the world, but not of the world. Just because some law says that something is or isn't permitted doesn't mean it's right or of GOD.

The Word of GOD also says that Christ wasn't sent into the world to condemn the world, but that through HIM the world might be saved.

In GOD,
LordCome

you don't think that Christ died on the cross for the sins of man when he/she approaches God on the day of our judgement?
You're saying that since Christ died on the cross for a...let's say a murderer or child molester, Christ paid the price so man should forgive them too?

So you're saying that Christ died on the cross so man can forgive man? Or God can forgive man? I don't understand.

Since you're dismissing the Old Testament in this case....what does Romans 15 mean to you in the New Testament?

Romans 13
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.


not debating or being rude. Just asking some questions.

Don't lose the fact in this discussion that it is God that sees the heart. Man can only look to the outward appearance! The whole question of guilt or innocence is totally reversed between man's view and God's view. Man looks at the evidence and judges. If the crime deserves death, then death is to be paid!
God also know the crime and the death that it deserves. But His view is eternal while man's view if from birth to death. God is the one that sets the rules of eternal death. The scriptures tell us:
John 3:14 "As R145 Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Only God know who comes to Him and when.
justaservant

Justaservant, oh yes only God knows. How true this is!!

Good Morning C-los Medranos

I don't see you as debating or being rude. This is healthy Christian discussion.
What you say is true about Romans 13 and Romans 15. It's the Word of GOD. But I do think you're missing what I'm saying. Maybe I'm not being very clear. I'll try to do better.

As I said in my last post, we are to abide by earthly laws unless they violate GOD's law. The law said that because Tookie was convicted of murdering these four people he must die. I don't have a problem with that. I do not resist the laws of the land and I do not support anyone who does. But there was a way out. Clemency. Yes, the law said that he should die, but there was a legal out called Clemency. Mercy. We as Children of GOD should be trying to emulate HIM. GOD granted us 'clemency.' HE is our ultimate role model. GOD's law said that we all should die for our sins, but in HIS infinite wisdom, mercy, lovingkindness, etc. HE MADE a way out for us. Man has established the concept of clemency in his law as a way out so they would not have been going outside of the law.

GOD is the ultimate Judge and HE alone knows the heart of a man. What Child of GOD can dispute that? We are to be different from the world. We are to be GOD's light in this dark world. We are to be an example. In the end, GOD's going to put the antichrist into position. Are we to follow him/her/it? The Word goes deeper than that scripture, especially when talking about the end times.

Let me say again, I am not pro-death penalty nor am I anti-death penalty. I'm specifically speaking on this particular case and the issue of Mercy, not the death penalty. I'm still praying on this one.

Have a blessed day
In GOD
LordCome

C-los Medranos
I'm sorry, but I forgot something. You said, "You're saying that since Christ died on the cross for a...let's say a murderer or child molester, Christ paid the price so man should forgive them too? So you're saying that Christ died on the cross so man can forgive man? Or God can forgive man? I don't understand. "

Christ died on the cross for our sins. The murderer, the child molester, etc. But Matt. 6:12, 14-15 states: "...(12) and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...(14) For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. (15) But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." This is coming directly from Christ. The One Who would die for us. The same One Who while on the cross prayed for those who'd abused and crucified HIM saying, "...Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do" John 23:34. What I quoted you as saying above wasn't what I was trying to imply, but now that I think on it I would have to say that since Christ died for us we should be willing to forgive. Just think about all that Christ indured for you, for me, for everyone. HE had the sins of the world on HIM while on that cross. HE had my sins on HIM and it would be a couple thousand years before I even entered the picture. HE didn't deserve it, but HE volunteered to be that Lamb, that sacrifice for all our filthiness. If HE, being perfect and pure, could give up HIS seat beside the Father to die for those who were deserving of death then we should be more than willing to follow HIS example. Mercy.

In GOD
LordCome

tres·pass [ tréspəss, tréss pàss ]
intransitive verb (past and past participle tres·passed, present participle tres·pass·ing, 3rd person present singular tres·pass·es)

Definitions:

1. encroach on somebody: to intrude on somebody's privacy or time
2. break moral or social law: to commit a sin or break a social law ( archaic )
3. law enter somebody else's land unlawfully: to go onto somebody else's land or enter somebody else's property without permission
4. law cause injury: to cause injury to the person, property, or rights of another

i am pro-death penalty.
I admit that if a person murdered a person (or more) then God granted man the ability to excercise law. I AM NOT a big fan of some one getting executed for other things outside of murder. That is where I draw my line.

You mentioned something earlier about "We as Children of GOD should be trying to emulate HIM." That is where I break off in belief becase I hear many many people say this. I do believe in love and I do believe in mercy. I see sooooo many friends live crazy lifestyles and they come ask me questions about God. I answer them...then they come back and say "well it doesn't matter how i live because God is forgiving and he'll forgive me cuz he loves me no matter what i do."

I don't think I'm saying man should not be forgiving. I've overlooked so many debts, words and damages etc. etc. (deep breath) etc. people have done to me and moved on. That is Christ saying (in so many words) "don't worry about the pety stuff...it ain't worth it, turn the other cheek." Outside of the pety...are serious violations such as murder. This is where God will take care of whomever breaks those laws and he has no problem removing the from the book of life. God created government to excercise the laws for man.

let's just conclude that practicing forgivness means different things to different people. If someone murdered a parent of yours and you forgave them....i couldn't tell you if you'd get points for that but I also couldn't tell you if you lost points for wanting justice done if all evidence showed a guilty murder case.

Me...I'd follow scripture and let government do it's thing.
I couldn't say i would feel better or feel worse but will have faith that whatever outcome happened...it was His will.

wow...i tihnk i took this thread way off topic.

sorry

I agree with you and I too have faith that whatever happens is according to GOD's Will. As far as forgiveness, there is one true definition of 'forgiveness' and that's GOD's definition. It doesn't matter how we as humans try to swing it to fit what we want it to fit. That's where we go wrong. Accepting our own definitions of GOD's concepts. I.E. Love. Homosexuality is running rampant in the church because of the misinterpretation of 'Love.' (that was just an example, I'm not getting on subject) There's GOD's way and there's man's way. Just because someone is in position doesn't mean they're following GOD's way. GOD allowed them to be placed in the position, true, but that doesn't mean they're one of HIS Children. Just look at some of these Arab countries where they don't prosecute men who murder women in their families because they allegedly brought dishonor to the family. GOD allowed the leaders in these countries to have these positions, but these laws are not of GOD.

There's no big sin or little sin with GOD. Sin is sin. The little lie is the same as murder or child molestation. There's no gray or straddling the fence in GOD. GOD didn't send Christ to die on the cross for the 'big' sins and leave us to just brush off the 'little' sins. HE died for everything. This man was attempting to rectify the wrongs he'd done. Christ died for us well before we even acknowleged that HE is LORD. Why was showing mercy on this man not more than administering death. The law of the Old Testament called for death for more things than murder, but the Grace and Mercy of the New Testament calls for a covering of those sins by Jesus' blood.

Allow me to share a little of my present life with you. I have a cousin who was a Crip, a Hoover Crip to be exact. His mother took him, his older brother and younger sister away from our family with he was in his early teens and took them to California where he got caught up in the gang lifestyle. I and my cousin who is ten years older than me never met until the middle of last month. Back in 1997 he moved his family to NC to start new but last year he was extradited back to California for a crime that he was exonerated of earlier this year. PRAISE GOD. But anyway, his brother gave him my number and I'm telling you, to see the work that GOD has done in this man's life is unbelieveable. It brings tears to my eyes as I think about it. While he was in jail he was beaten almost to the point of death by Bloods even though he was no longer gangbanging. The jail wouldn't even rehab him so through GOD he was able to rehab himself. He was completely paralyzed and couldn't speak. When he was placed back into general population the jail placed him with the Crips and through a mistake in the system they placed one of the Bloods that attacked him in the cell with him to be his cellmate. This guy was so scared because he knew that the Crips were going to retaliate against him. But...my cousin wouldn't allow them to touch him. See my cousin was considered to be an 'OG' (Original Gangster) even though he wasn't gangbanging anymore and he used this influence to potentially save the life of this young Blood member. He also went on to witness to this young man and lead him to Christ. My cousin didn't have to extend mercy to this young man, but he did and it saved this young man's life, in this world and for eternity. It's a joy to speak with my cousin because I learn something new everytime I speak to him and he is now working with youth in his church. GOD saved him for a reason, just like he allowed Tookie to die for a reason, but the point I'm focusing on here is Mercy. I have no problem with the law being administered, but what about Mercy? Mercy?

LOL!!! No need to be sorry. This is conversation. Sometimes conversation takes turns. Who knows where it will lead. I may learn something.

But is it really mercy or forgiveness in your cousins story?
I can disect this story apart because I am originally from Chicago and used to run with the Folks - Satan Desciples (oh Lord why?) and can relate with what your cousin went through.

Believe me when I tell you this by first hand experience...I know that I would of told the blood "thank you" instead of "I forgive you" plus still protected the blood if I turned a new page in my life. Can you see why the "thank you" is more powerful than the "I forgive you" in this case?
There is a difference.

Now if I was walking the street and I got jumped by a gang and cops caught them...should I prosecute? Should I show mercy?
Why not? I would file charges.
They can thank me later when (if) they straighten up.

Is having mercy a good thing to have at all times?
You gotta watch when and how you excercise that.
Or when you think you spot it or have it.


good to hear things turn out good with your cousin.

Hi C-los,
I hope you had a good and safe New Year.

I understand the difference between 'thank you' and 'I forgive,' but I don't agree with 'thank you' being more important than 'I forgive.' The two both have place, but when looking to GOD's Word and trying to be pleasing to GOD, I would have to say that 'I forgive' is more powerful because it covers both oneself and the other person(s). Just as in the scripture I quoted from John, Christ says that if we forgive men their trespasses then our Father in Heaven will forgive our trespasses. See, our forgiveness from the Father is predicated on whether we forgive or not.

I thank GOD for bringing you out from among Satan's Disciples. A true testimony. But again I have to apply the principle of Mercy here.

As far as if it was mercy or forgiveness in my cousin's situation, knowing my cousin's walk with GOD and some of the things he did before, I would have to say it was both. He truly forgave them and in order to truly forgive there has to be mercy. The fact that he did not retaliate and would not allow anyone else to retaliate shows mercy. He didn't turn a new page in his life. He gave his life to Christ and began being led by GOD.

I think you're misunderstanding me when you say '...should I prosecute? Should I show mercy?' As I continually state, I am not opposed to the laws of the land. I work for a District Court Judge. In this scenerio you give about being jumped by a gang, prosecution is not the opposite of mercy. Prosecuting these hypothetical offenders could be a show of mercy depending on the spirit in which you move. I'm not saying to allow all offenders run amok unpunished. That is not what I'm saying. This is not the definition of mercy. It is unmerciful to let an out of control child go unpunished, for instance. Punishment is part of the learning process. GOD punishes us at times when we step outside of HIS Will. I can't think of the scripture reference, but the Word says that GOD chastises/punishes those whom HE loves. This chastising/punishing is to teach so that different and better choices can be made. Because we are HIS Children, we should be setting this example for the world.

Mercy is to be used at ALL times. GOD did not pick and choose what HE was going to show mercy for when HE sent HIS Son to die for us. Christ's death covered EVERY sin. If one is filled with the Spirit of GOD and seeks to be led by HIM, GOD will give them discernment. That's not saying that sometimes we won't make mistakes and listen to our own intentions. This I know personally, first hand. In some situations GOD may lead one to extend mercy by wiping the slate clean. In other cases GOD may led one to extend mercy by 'pressing charges.' In both of these cases, GOD alone knows what will cause the 'offender' to have a change of heart. Maybe Offender #1 may be touched at the heart by seeing the person he/she offended say 'I drop all charges.' Maybe Offender #2 may be touched at the heart by facing the punishment. It would be unmerciful to give each of these Offenders the other one's 'mercy.'

Death is the ultimate punishment in this life and the next. It is very serious. Again, I'm not offended or upset that the penalty for the crime Tookie was convicted of was death. If that is what the law says then ok. What I'm saying is this: In this particular situation, this man was clearly repentant. This man had been working for years writing books for youth against gang lifestyle and many other things. He was doing more from his jail cell than we do from the freedom of our lives on the outside. He could have very well not have 'taken up his cross' and continued with his former lifestyle. Just because prosecutors tried to make it look like he was still 'running' with the gang from behind bars doesn't mean it was true. The only concrete proof of either side was his work against gang life. Anyone who knows about true gangbanging, not this commercialized stuff being depicted today, will know that one can't run with the gang in one respect and be advocating against the gang in another. It wasn't as though he was doing this work undercover and in secret. It was out in the open. In this case, mercy is removing the death penalty and allowing this man to continue the work he has begun. Redemption. It's not as if removing the death penalty meant that he would be released into society. (I would have been furious if this was so because I do believe he must be punished.) It meant that he would spend the rest of his life in jail continuing his work.

It is our job as Children of GOD to allow GOD to lead us in our everyday lives and not lead ourselves. We are to be accomplishing GOD's Will every moment of our lives and not our own. We are to forsake ourselves and cleave to HIS Will. GOD doesn't sit on HIS thrown and evaluate us only during Sunday morning service. Our walk is every moment of every minute of every hour of every day. GOD's Will be done. Part of the model prayer Christ gave to the disciples when they asked how to pray was, '...Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven...'

Again, I thank GOD for your deliverance from the gang. GOD protected you and delivered you for a reason, just as HE has done us all. But I'm sure you already know this. I'm sure you have a powerful testimony.

In GOD,
LordCome

P.S. Thanks for replying to my initial post and for continuing to post replies. You're pretty challenging and making me think LOL! Have a good day.