The Rapture vs. The Glorious Appearing


There are many questions asked concerning the difference between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing of Jesus Christ. To demonstrate the differences between the two, I've prepared the following questions with scriptural references to each.

Where is the Church found in each event?

At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His Church. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17)
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus comes WITH His Church. (Zech 14:5, Col 3:4, Jude 14, Rev 19:14)
Where does Jesus appear in each event?


At the Rapture, Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18)
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus' feet touch the earth (Zech 14:4, Rev:19:11-21)
Who is taken and who is left behind?

At the Rapture, Christians are taken first and unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thess 4:13-18)
At the Glorious Appearing, the wicked are taken first, but the righteous (the tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matt 13:28-30)
What will Jesus do at each event?

At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the Church, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Rev. 19:6-9)

At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will execute judgment on the earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zech 14:3-4, Jude 14-15, Rev 19:11-21)
When does the Marriage of the Lamb take place?

The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9)
War on earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the Glorious Appearing when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the smackdown on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21)
How long will each event be?

The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (Blink. It's over!). (1 Cor 15:52)
The Glorious Appearing will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zech 12:10, Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7)
Who will see Jesus at each event?

At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (Christians) will see Him. (1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52)
At the Glorious Appearing, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail.(Rev. 1:7)
Will Jesus shout?

At the Rapture, Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout (calling for the saints at the resurrection). (1 Thess 4:16)
At the Glorious Appearing, no shout is mentioned, although the Lord does slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth. (Rev. 19:11-21)
Will there be a resurrection at each?

At the Rapture, a resurrection will take place. (1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54)
At the Glorious Appearing, there is no resurrection spoken of. (Zech. 12:10, Zech.14:4-5, Rev 1:7, 19:11-21)

What about the timing of each event?

The Rapture can happen at any time...maybe even now which is why we are to be WATCHING for the return of Jesus Christ! (Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6)
The Glorious Appearing will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. (Dan 9:24-27, Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8)
What role will the angels of Heaven have?

At the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church.
At the Glorious Appearing, angels will be sent to gather people together for judgment. (Matt 13:39, 41 & 49, Matt. 24:31, Matt. 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10)
What about the resurrected bodies?

At the Rapture, those who died in Christ will return with Jesus to recover their resurrected bodies. (1 Thess 4:14-16)
At the Glorious Appearing, Christians will return with Jesus already in their resurrected bodies riding on white horses. (Rev 19:11-21)
White horse for Jesus or no white horse for Jesus?

At the Rapture, Jesus doesn't return riding a white horse.
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will return riding a white horse. (Rev 19:11)
What is the message each event will bring for mankind?

The Rapture will bring with it a message of hope and comfort. (1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3)
The Glorious Appearing will bring with it a message of judgment. (Joel 3:12-16, Mal 4:5, Rev 19:11-21)
.................................................benny

Good post there Benny.
Its amazing how The Lord continues to reveal His Word as we continue to ask and seek for His Glorious Appearing.
I just pray that whether we as christians believe in pre-trib or post trib we all continue to put all our faith in Jesus Christ.
As you and others have posted we are living in a time where prophecy is unfolding before our very eyes.
It is Awsome!

Awsome!

Gideon said both are the same event read your bible.

The scriptures tell a definite time frame and time lapse for the Lord's complete intervention at the time of the end

Gideon said, REALLY prove it and show us exactly where the scriptures say this prescisely, unequivically, and bluntly. My Bible KJV1611 says this is one event not two. So go ahead prove your point as you stated the scriptures say so. You cant!!!!! As it is not there; it is only a figment of your imagination. You are in error and your error light is flashing.

God might still use him for miracle practice.

......................................................benny

"Gideon said, REALLY prove it and show us exactly where the scriptures say this prescisely, unequivically, and bluntly"

>This the song of one who comes to argue and to deceive with doubt

>You have already been told many times

>No point in kicking a dead horse

>Time is wasting for you

Powerful truths!!!

]Gideon said, REALLY prove it and show us exactly where the scriptures say this prescisely, unequivically, and bluntly



Gideon said, YOU misconstrue the scriptures and put ideals and things in them that are not there at all. At Christ Glorious apearing we see the rapture, resurrection of the saints, the millenial Kingdom start, The end of Man\\\'s carnal kingdoms, and Reign of Christ. This all comes with his appearing his Epiphany at the end of the great tribulation. To say otherwise is to misconstrue scipture. I Thes 4 does not say at all that Christ will come before the tribulation, all it addresses is the concerns the church had for the dead saints. II Thesolonians Clarifies the matter and speaks of our gathering to Christ, it being after the workings of Satan and at the end of the tribulation. All Gospel accounts including and not limited to Daniel show that Christ will raise his saints at the end of Great tribulation, and that the kingdom of the Saints will begin its reign when Jesus returns, and establishes his kingdom; he also destroys the earthly kingdoms at this time, with fire and brimestone as he did sodom and Gamorrah. You make joy of something that is clearly not recorded in scipture, a pretrib rapture..

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.


Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.


Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.


Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.


Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The Lord\\\\\\\'s day comes without warning as a thief in the night, to those that do not heed the signs of the times. Watch and be sober. Be not of the darkness that the day should over take you as a thief. Be of the day, so you can see the signs, otherwise you will not see or know them as such.



Clearly we see a post trib return and rapture here. The saints are reborn into immortality, while Christ burns the wicked with his return. THis is exactly what is seen here. The wicked shall be ashes under our immortal beings of existence, when Christ puts on our immortality. We shall stand as Shadrac Michac and ABednigo, did in the firey furnace of Christ consumption of the wicked and not a hair shall perish from us in this event of judgment.

When they, the earth dwellers shall say peace and safety, then comes sudden destruction, as a women in travail.




Gideon said

Hebrews 9:26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world but NOW once in the END of the WORLD hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.


The lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Christ died for all the saints of the old covenant also. Strangely we do not hear that often. They instead of looking back to his crucifiction looked forward to it. For such he suffeered from the foundation of the world. We clearly see that on The Day of Atonement the High Priest Went into the temple or tabernacle to pour the blood of an innocent lamb of 1 year old, spotless, on the mercy seat of God\\\\\\\'s ark. This represents Christ\\\\\\\' s blood on the mercy seat for our sins. The sons of Levi, or Moses\\\\\\\' and Araon\\\\\\\'s family were responsible for this temple service. The lambs book of life was written from the foundation of the world. Now as we see the end coming will he appear again in the end, to put away sin by his sacrifice 2000 years ago. He will conquer sin in the end by the power of his resurrection. We Know that in part now, but in the end when Christ resureects the dead in Christ, including Old Testament saints., he will have conquered death to the entirety of the matter.

incorruption.


1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Notice it says at the last trump or seventh as we see in revelation. It all fits so perfectly.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.


1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?


1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.


1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Notice once again this takes place at the end, more proof yet again for the post tribulation rapture. No matter wihich way you turn, we will see a post trib rapture, at the last trumpet.

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: Notice the last trumpet ends time as we humanly know it on earth. We go into the eternal present, afer our rapture and transformation. The end is here. Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Rev 10:8 ¶ And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go [and] take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel\\\\\\\'s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.



Rev 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,


Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Here we see the trumpet actually being sounded, sometime shortly after the beast murders the two prophets. Then we see that it is now time to judge the dead saints and to pour out the wrath of God on the world. The earth dwellers are angry, because God's wrath is now coming. We notice before the trumpet sounds, they think everything is ok, because they murdered the prophets which tormented the earth dwellers. Yet, all is not ok, because now sudden destruction comes to the earth dwellers. For when they shall say peace and safety then cometh sudden destruction, as travail upon a women. The church is now ready to birth Christ by his magnificent return in clouds and great Glory. Now the wine press of God's wrath is ready also.

Now we start to see it clearly and the icing begins to cover our cake




Mat 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The kingdom of God is within us. We are the kingdom of God. We are the wheat, without a doubt. Unfortunately we grow in Christ and in God\\\\\\\'s grace and knowledge here on this earth. This is a oxymoron though, as being in this wicked world is not all that misforunate. We are tried here by God, so that we can grow to serve him in eternity some time in the future. As we were growing in the field, Satan came in and planted tares. This, I believe occured during the fall of Eden. For when Adam and Eve fell, God told Adam that his ground would be curse and grow with thistles and tares, basically. The tares are the wicked that do all they can, by Satan\\\\\\\'s power to keep us from growing in God. Yet wheat is wheat and tares are tares. God has always known which would be which, throughout all eternity.

Now the wheat is springing up and bringing forth fruit in the end. The tares apear also as they have been planted with us. Yet we are two different people, one from the enemy and one from God. The servants told the master of the tares and he knew of it already. I believe these servants may be pretribers that come to the knowledge of the master's word. They wanted to pluck them up from the earth, before the harvest season, before the tares reached their fullest and before the wheat was ready for the harvest. They assumed God wanted and was going to do the same, but God stops them and says, no not yet. This must be done during the harvest and we will see why laater. God has a reason for all the good he does. Yet the master tells them why he will not pluck them up yet.

He wanted them to reach full maturity, until the time of the harvest. Then the master will tell the reapers or angels to go and gather first the wicked, tares and bind them in bundles to be burned. Following this the angels and to gather his elect church, saints, together into the barn.

We will demonstrate this very clearly.
]
He wanted them to reach full maturity, until the time of the harvest. Then the master will tell the reapers or angels to go and gather first the wicked, tares and bind them in bundles to be burned. Following this the angels and to gather his elect church, saints, together into the barn.

We will demonstrate this very clearly. The harvest of humanity does not occur until the end of time. This is an undeinialble fact, and pretribers have put themselve in a very compromising posittion to believe ohterwise. Lately we have had wicked misleading hollywood productions as the Lefto Behind Series by Dr. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins propagate this false doctrine. This series has mislead more people into the false doctrine of Pretribulationalism than any other person, book, or thing. People can now buy a misleading movie about Jesus return and let the television do the work study they should do themselves. This should come to us as no surprise. another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Many are deceived by this false doctrine that false prophets have claimed is divinely inspired. They have said, thus sayeth the Lord and GOd has not said. Let's see what God has to say about the harvest.

¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my nam's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect\\\\\\\'s sake those days shall be shortened. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

First of all the deciples came to Jesus privlily. Tim Lahaye was not there, nor was Irvine, Scofield and Darby. So we can say with confidence since this was a private meeting between Jesus and his deciples that the deciples are the bearers of eschatalogical truth. All the others promoting this pretrib rapture falacy are liars. Let every man be a liar and God a truth teller. So they came privately to Jesus and knew the truth.

When asked by his desciples when the end would come, Jesus said take heed that no man deceive you. Notice they come in Jesus\\\\\\\'s name and claimed I am Christ. These are the first false prophets of the end of our age. This is interpreted, literally, that we have Christ and his truth. Many churches are saying, Oh we have the truth about Jesus and his second coming, but are deceiving many. There are very few churches that hold to the truth, especially with regards to the second coming.

We now in America hear of wars and rumors of wars every day now. Before this was not the case, at least for America. America has been a war free nation for the most part. We have never had a war come home after the after the French, British, and Spanish wars. Now we are at war with nations that capture the interest of the internaitonal communities. The wars seem to be escalating and spreading to other Arab states. A need for a peace agreement in the middle east is rapidly becoming necessary.

We have seen the results of war; famines and pesitancial plagues are arising. The earthquakes we see seem to get more common and larger as time passes. The biirth pains for the messiah\\\\\\\'s return are becoming more frequent and stronger as time passes. We see that these are the beginning of sorrows or pains for the birth or return of the Messiah.

Then we shall be delivered up to be afflicted and killed. We see this in other countries, but not on the scale that we see here in this verse. For then shall many be offended and shall hate one another.

We see this causes many false prophets to arise and they shall deceive many. I believe these are pretriber pastors that never had Jesus in their hearts or never had the truth even about His second coming. These are the ones that will spread lies to the misguided followers of pretribulationalism. Since the sin of deception shall abound the love of many waxes cold or useless. But those that endure until the end, the same shall know the truth, endure affliction, and be saved. The end far many could be martydom, or death by the hands of the Devilish system of the earth dwellers. The end shall not come until the Gospel has been preached to the ends of the world. We see the abomination desolation has not taken place yet. So, what we have is a perfect enviroment to spread God\\\\\\\'s children as planted seeds in a New World Order envirioment, where all trade and transport is allowed internationally. Unfortunately some cultures will not be accepting of Christians, and that is why we see the martyrdom on locallized levels. That changes later to a mass scale.

Now with the New World Order allowing easy international access, we can easisly place the troops in place to bring the Gospel to all the world, every tribe, tongue, kindred and nation.. Then, almost suddenly, the antichrist is claiming God\\\\\\\'s divinity, as he sits in the temple of Jerusalem showing himself to be God, before all the world. As this event was unfolding Christians were still preaching the Gospel freely, but now that changes with AOD. Christians, world wide must now die for their faith, by not accepting the antichrist as God, and by not accepting the mark of the Beast. This triggers and incredible revival as not seen before and many are saved, as they witness Christians dying for the truth and their faith.


[quote] Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,


Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?


Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

After the AOD, we see many souls saved as never before. A great revival is born from the Great Tribulation; many become Christians. But this is a time of persecution as the world has never seen before. Satan is wroth with the womans seed and desires to anialate all Christians. Many false Christ arise in attempts to deceive if it were possible the elect. Christians are not to believe these false shepards that are claiming Christ is here or there. For when Christ returns, the sight will be brilliant and Glorious. His parousia will brighten the sky, as lightning that shines from the east and then to the west. It will be so magnificent, that his return shall flash across the sky, throughout the entire world.

Every eye shall see him, even they which pierced his side.[b] If they that pierced his sides see Him this tells me two things. First of all these that pierced Christ are resurrected from the dead with the saints in the first resurrection at the end of the Tribulation and before the millenial reign. Secondly, if they rose with the saints in the first resurrection, than this makes them believers also. God makes no errors. The ones that pierced Jesus, said truly this is the son of God, at his crucifiction. They, those that pierced Jesus, became saved and we see them rising from the dead with the saints. These were Roman soldiers in the Day of our Lord, when he walked the earth as a man child, later to be born unto the church, at the end of the tribulation pains, and end of the world system as we know it. That is incredible that God allows us to see these details, down to the tea (Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ) The earth dwellers shall wail, but the ones that pierced Jesus shall see him for who he is, their just God and Savior, who pardons their sin. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. (Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Suddenly the moment of truth arises before the great and terrilbe day of the Lord arrives. The sun is darkened immediately after the tribulation of those days or simply, [b]immediately after the tribulation, and the moon shall not give her light. The sun we are told shall appear as a sackcloth and the moon shall appear as blood, basically. Finally, the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. God pulls back the universe as a scroll would roll up instantly to demonstrate, he controls the universe and owns it. No science can explain the power and majesty of God\\\\\\\'s might as he demonstrates his entire control of universe. For astronomers, this event is incomprehendable and mind boggling. The universe is suppose to be orderly and making evolutionary changes, fragment at a time. It is not supposed to suddenly begin falling all at once. What is going on they think? God is returning and shakes the powers of heaven to give the saints a fire works show that is unimaginalbe. from human perspective.

Then the end arrives and we see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.


Then the end arrives and we see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory, with the saints and armies of heaven he comes on a white horse.. The tribes of the earth mourn for fear. The trumpet sounds loudly to wake the dead in Christ, including those that pierced him. Christ sends his angels to gather the tribes, or earth dwellers, the wicked ones destined for hell and the wrath of God. Jesus, he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.The he sends his angels to gather his elect; the dead are resurrected and the living and dead rapture to meet the Lord in the air. He then proceeds to land on Mt Zion, to save Israel from the armies gathering against her. THe sinners have come to their full and God uses their supidity to align them for his wrath. He has them exactly where he wants them now, in Megido. Now he can pour his wrath out on all of them as they are together to battle against Israel. God destroys them.




Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.


Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Rev 19:17 ¶ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.


Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

God\\\\\\\'s Angels Gather The Tares and Chaff for the Fire and His Angels Gather the Saints For Transformation and Rule
Once again we see the angels conducting the harvest of the Saints and God preparing the Wrath for the wicked. Throughout scripture we see the havest always takes place in the end, in every given situation.

Exd 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, [which is] in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
Exd 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
Exd 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year\\\\\\\'s end.
Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.


] Rev 14:14 ¶ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


Rev 14:17 ¶ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.


Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.


Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

]Once again, God gathers the armies of the earth for winepresss of the wrath of God, in Megido, Armagedon. I believe this is where the gathering starts for the earth dwellers also, the wicked, unsaved that have accepted the mark of the beast..




This post has been edited by Gideon7620: Today, 10:59 AM

God's favorite target for lightning strikes.



..................................................benny

Bump in the night.

The Rapture vs. The Glorious Appearing


There are many questions asked concerning the difference between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing of Jesus Christ. To demonstrate the differences between the two, I've prepared the following questions with scriptural references to each.

Where is the Church found in each event?

At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His Church. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17)
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus comes WITH His Church. (Zech 14:5, Col 3:4, Jude 14, Rev 19:14)
Where does Jesus appear in each event?


At the Rapture, Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18)
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus' feet touch the earth (Zech 14:4, Rev:19:11-21)
Who is taken and who is left behind?

At the Rapture, Christians are taken first and unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thess 4:13-18)
At the Glorious Appearing, the wicked are taken first, but the righteous (the tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matt 13:28-30)
What will Jesus do at each event?

At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the Church, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Rev. 19:6-9)

At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will execute judgment on the earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zech 14:3-4, Jude 14-15, Rev 19:11-21)
When does the Marriage of the Lamb take place?

The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9)
War on earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the Glorious Appearing when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the smackdown on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21)
How long will each event be?

The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (Blink. It's over!). (1 Cor 15:52)
The Glorious Appearing will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zech 12:10, Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7)
Who will see Jesus at each event?

At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (Christians) will see Him. (1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52)
At the Glorious Appearing, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail.(Rev. 1:7)
Will Jesus shout?

At the Rapture, Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout (calling for the saints at the resurrection). (1 Thess 4:16)
At the Glorious Appearing, no shout is mentioned, although the Lord does slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth. (Rev. 19:11-21)
Will there be a resurrection at each?

At the Rapture, a resurrection will take place. (1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54)
At the Glorious Appearing, there is no resurrection spoken of. (Zech. 12:10, Zech.14:4-5, Rev 1:7, 19:11-21)

What about the timing of each event?

The Rapture can happen at any time...maybe even now which is why we are to be WATCHING for the return of Jesus Christ! (Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6)
The Glorious Appearing will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. (Dan 9:24-27, Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8)
What role will the angels of Heaven have?

At the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church.
At the Glorious Appearing, angels will be sent to gather people together for judgment. (Matt 13:39, 41 & 49, Matt. 24:31, Matt. 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10)
What about the resurrected bodies?

At the Rapture, those who died in Christ will return with Jesus to recover their resurrected bodies. (1 Thess 4:14-16)
At the Glorious Appearing, Christians will return with Jesus already in their resurrected bodies riding on white horses. (Rev 19:11-21)
White horse for Jesus or no white horse for Jesus?

At the Rapture, Jesus doesn't return riding a white horse.
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will return riding a white horse. (Rev 19:11)
What is the message each event will bring for mankind?

The Rapture will bring with it a message of hope and comfort. (1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3)
The Glorious Appearing will bring with it a message of judgment. (Joel 3:12-16, Mal 4:5, Rev 19:11-21)
.................................................benny

Dear Benny:

Re. your post in rebuttal to Gideon's post. I agree with much of what you wrote but would change the following a bit.



Charlie -- There is no doubt the prophecy of I Thess.4:15-18 should be a comfort to all believers, as per the scriptures you list but the fact is that, after the rapture takes place, the rapture will be a warning to those believers who have not been accounted worthy to escape all these things in the rapture, Luke 21:36, and are still on earth.

The souls under the altar of the third seal will be among those who will not have been 'accounted worthy'. The warning I think, will make them realize they were not really watching and waiting, as we are told to do, and the rapture will strenghthen them so that they will be prepared to die for their witness. John heard them asking God when He would avenge their deaths in Rev. 6:10.

They will be told to wait until their brothers, others who were not accounted worthy, either, should be killed as they had been killed, for their witness.

That is why, Benny, we must obey Luke 21:36. None of us is really worthy, Benny, despite what we may think, but we can hope and pray we will be accounted worthy.

As I see it.

God Bless you. Charlie.

Dear Charlie,I agree with your post.
Those under the alter are those who came to Jesus after the rapure, and were beheaded for their faith.
But they were left behind and are not members of the Bride.
You see, the Bride at this very moment has been instructed by the Lord Jesus, for us to pray for our enemies.
But those under the altar have a different speech and they are asking for revenge.So there are two groups.
.................................................benny

Gideon siad, you see, there go those pretribers again, misconstruing scripture. THe only thing Luke 21:36 makes reference to escaping is the Wrath of God. Hence we are to watch and endure not hope for something not recorded in scripture. Clearly, I Thes. 4 is a very week way to attempt presenting a misconception that Jesus does not touch the ground. I Thes 4 we read in written in part only to address the concern the saints had for the dead in CHrist, it addresses and gives no detail to nothing else. Therefore to say Jesus does not touch the ground is putting something in scripture that is clearly not there. We are told by God in Revelation that if we add to the words of scriptures, God will add the plagues to the individual adds. Also he warns if we take things out of scripture of out of context he will also judge accordingly. Pretribers have a tendency of taking out and adding in things to scripture that should or should not be there. In this case you put something in that is not there, by saying Jesus does not touch the earth in I Thes 4. You do not know that, all Paul was doing here is addressing the saints who were concerned about the where abouts and well being of dead saints.

In II Thes 2 we see that no mention of Jesus touching the earth is seen here either, yet we know this speaks only of a post trib return and not two second comings as pretribers must falsely claim. We see Paul even reminds them of our gathering together unto the Lord, as making reference to I Thes 4. The both are the same single event. Paul was only concerned about the dead in I Thes 4, while in II Thes 2 he was addressing the fact that the Day of Christ return had not occured yet. The saints that were living at that time in Thessolonica were confursed and thought Jesus had come and left them, as it appears. To say these are two seperate events is placing in scripture ideals that are not supported by scriptural data, and it is foolish.

Now this passage below says nothing of a pretrib rapture, and it says nothing of Jesus not touching the earth. If you notice the first two verses are the central point, and that is what Paul is addressing here, nothing else. Pretribers cram information in here that is not here.

1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


In II Thes 2 the evidence of a post trib return is clear and indisputable. The gathering of the saints is also seen as after the tribulation and not before. Once again, pretribers try to say there are two different returns in verses one and two. That is how rediculous and desperate there doctrine and interpretations are. Clearly we see only one coming and the saints are gathered to Christ in the end of the tribulation.


Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

This is the rapture and it takes place at the end of the tribulation as we will see.


2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The pretribers claim this is the second, second coming of Christ at the end of the tribulaiton in verse two, while verse one is the first second coming before the tribulaiton. Now talk about a complete corruption of Doctrine.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

God warns us to not let the pretribers deceive us, because, the coming will come only after the apostacy, and after the antichrist is revealed.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We will even see the abomination desolation that takes place well into the tribulation, and this starts the Great Tribulation.


2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Christ will come after the restrainer is pulled and the wicked is revealed, and he Christ will destroy the wicked with the Paroucia of his epiphany or bright out shining Glory of His return.

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Christ coming if after the workings of Satan, after the Great Tribulation. Satan's working will be rooted in those that perish, because they believe and lie and are damned for it. They shall perish.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

The scriptures are very clear on this matter. Yet pretibers insist that the scripture are wrong or mean something else and they continue to misconstrue the scriptures and continue to believe lies, inspite of God's clear warnings here to not do so.

Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."

A mind like wet tennis shoes: Makes squishy noises when running.
Despite all their monkeying with scripture,Gidget just cannot escape Jesus' restriction against knowing the timing of the rapture. In fact, our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture, He said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).

Gidget states that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, he fails to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:

1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.



.....................................................benny

The rapture will bring with it the immortalization of the saints at the end of the Great Tribulation so the saints can proceed with Christ as he destroys the ungodly with unquechable fire. The saints shall be divinely sheltered from the fire in their immortal state.

Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."
.........................................benny

Benny is blind as it says it everywhere.

There fore this eroneous, wicked, false doctrine crept into the church starting in the mid 1800's.

I want to say I love this Christian forum. I believe it is the best. If this were some other forums, I would have been excommunicated for speaking the truth, contrary to popular belief. Thanks for the opportunity to express beliefs in God's word.

In order to make a proof that Jack Van Impe, the 700 Club, and many other mainstream conservatives, as BJU, Hyles, Liberty, Fairhaven, Maranatha, Clearwater, Oklahoma Baptist, Trinity, Tennessee Temple, and many others are wrong and misleading flocks with a false doctrine we must first start with early church history. to build a base. We do not need church history to prove the Bible as the scripture speaks for itself. But if we can prove that early saints believed what the scriptures already teach, then we can prove that the pretribulational rapture is wishful thinking, false doctrine, and tradition that started in the mid 1800's or so by apostate christian leaders that wanted to break away because of discontentments. This is the authors goal. To prove a bunch of goof balls came up with this false doctrine. As member of the body of Christ we have the responsiblity to seek out truth and the discernment to find and understand it.

During this time period of church history, America was young, undeveloped, growing, and vulnerable to its apostate shepards. Soon it, pretribulationalism, easily became the tradition and standard for most churches and movements. As America grew, this false doctrine grew with it and its churches. People followed paradosis or tradition rather than the holy scriptures. The fragmented masses of early America seeking religious guidance and religeous freedom allow this deceit to infultrate the early Western Church settings. The early American church was vulnerable to this false doctrine of pretribulatonalism.

As in early America, most most modern day evangelicals have been taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario as established fact. Most if not very few have ever had a chance to hear the Post-Tribulation Rapture position expounded. As a matter of fact most pretribulation Rapture believers have never even expounded the pretribulation heresy. The have neglected their personal responsibility to seek truth and find it in God's word. They have been programmed by mere tradition to believe that the Pre-Trib Rapture is the biblically correct truth concerning the closing dramas of this age.

But are they correct about this early secret Rapture seen nowhere in the Bible?
Is there any sound scriptural proof of this?
Do they have any solid Biblical evidence for it at all? The answers to all these questions are no, no, no. There is nothing in the Bible that even hints to this dogma. It is merely wishful thinking and a fairy tale, supported by a corrupted church or evengelical movement, lost in its historic heretical tradition.


Church History Proves a Late Post-Tribulation Rapture

Here in this segment we will start with modern day examples and move on to more ancient ones. We will proceed in reverse chronilogical order. We will save the best for the last as the old saying goes.

As believers we must be able to diipher the difference between tribulation, persecution, and the wrath of God. We are told in I Thessalonians Chapter 5, Verse 9 says, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Pretribers take this verse and interpret it as saying, God hath noth appointed you to tribulation and persecution, brought on by Satan. He has appointed you to obtain salvation, by a secret rapture, that noone knows about. Now does that verse really say that. No, ofcourse not, but rather, they should interpret this, God has not appointed you to the fires of hell but to obain salvation throught the blood of Christ. God has not appointed you to the wrath he will pour out on this world during the Great Tribulation, but to obtain, divine deliverence as he did with the children of Israel in Egypt, during the Exodus. As saints we will not be immuned to the persecutions and tribulations that Satan will pour out on the saints. We will however be immuned to the wrath God will pour out on the unsaved, Mathew 24:15-21, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 9:25-27, Mark 13:1-37, Revelation 6:1-17, Gods Wrath on the unsaved is seen in Revelation 8:1-13. , Revelation 13, Revelation 15:1,2, Revelation 20:4-6. Now that we have a reasonalble idea of the differences between God'd wrath, and Satan's persecution, and tribulation we can go on to the first early saint in reverse chronilogical order.

Corrie Ten Boom is a survivor of Hitler's Holocaust. CORRIE TEN BOOM IN THIS LETTER BELOW COMMENTS ON THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE VIEW WHICH IS POPULAR TODAY. AND SHE RELAYS A WORD OF WARNING TO US IN THE WEST FROM THE SUFFERING YET VICTORIOUS UNDERGROUND CHURCH IN CHINA. SHE EXHORTS US TO PREPARE OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST, IN HIS HOLY WORD, AND BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT FOR THE COMING TRIALS OF OUR FAITH. SHE TELLS OF THE CHINESE CHURCH IN A FORMER TIME BEING MISINFORMED, UNWARNED, AND ILL-PREPARED FOR THE PERSECUTIONS THAT BEGAN IN 1949 UNDER MAO TSE TUNG'S RED GUARDS. IN THIS LETTER CORRIE ALSO WARNS THAT CHRISTIANS IN THE WEST TODAY ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF FALLING INTO A SIMILAR DISASTER BORN OF PASTORAL NEGLECT AND UNPREPAREDNESS. CORRIE, IN CLASSIC DUTCH DIRECTNESS, PLAINLY STATES THAT THOSE WHO TEACH A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE ARE AMONG THE FALSE TEACHERS JESUS WARNED US ABOUT. (-Mat.24:4-5) Many shall say here is Christ or there, believe them not. Christ in his entirety is found in Word of God. There are no gimics or secret codes or traditions to follow.

Corrie Ten Boom a Christian girl in Holland during World War II, lived there at that time the German Nazis controlled Europe. She, her sister, and father were captured by the Germans. Their crime was sheltering Jews. For this they were sent to the camps. Only Corrie survived. Corrie Ten Boom was a woman of faith and commitment to her Jesus. She knows of God's provision during the inevitable trials of our faith. This incredible woman of God is a lone voice speaking out for scriptural truth in the present eschatological wilderness. She has sounded a trumpet warning to American and western Christians. She has spoken out very specifically about the popular Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching abroad today. Here is Corrie Ten Boom's warning to the American church.


Here is part of it, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS BLOOD COVENANT ISSUE. WE MUST DISCARD ALL OUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND FANCIES. LET US SEARCH THE HOLY SCRIPTURES WITH ALL DILIGENCE IN TRUE BEREAN FAITHFULNESS. NOWHWERE IN SCRIPTURE SHALL WE FIND ONE SINGLE VERSE TO PROVE THAT WESTERN CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS ARE "OUTTA HERE" BEFORE THE RESURRECTION AT THE END OF THIS AGE. HOLY HISTORY STILL AWAITS THE "FINAL WITNESS" OF THE SAINTS. THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL PLAY THIS CRUCIAL ROLE IN THE END-TIME DRAMA. THE LATTER DAYS WILL SEE THE SAINTS GO UP ONTO THE STAGE OF HISTORY. BUT SAD TO REPORT, OUR PRESENT DAY LUKEWARM COMPROMISED LAODICEAN CHURCH IS SILENT ABOUT THIS. THE RELIGIOUS HIERARCHIES DO NOT SEEM TO THINK THAT SHARING THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM BIBLE PROPHECY IS IMPORTANT. BUT MESSIAH'S RETURN IS AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. HE HAS GIVEN US HIS WORD ON THE MATTER. AND CHRISTIANS WHO HOLD A BIBLICAL WORLD VIEW ARE PAYING ATTENTION AND TAKING THE INITIATIVE THEMSELVES. THEY ARE PREPARING THEIR HEARTS.

SO IN THE MAINSTREAM CHURCHES THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS A NEGLECTED AND ALMOST FORGOTTEN TRUTH. "RELIGI-BUSINESS" COMES FIRST FOR THEM IT SEEMS. AND SO THESE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF CHRISTIAN MINISTRY ARE BEING SORELY NEGLECTED. CHURCHMEN ARE FAILING TO WARN AND PREPARE COMFORTABLE WESTERN CHRISTIANS TO TAKE UP THEIR CROSS. VERY FEW CHRISTIANS ARE EVEN AWARE THAT AT SOME FUTURE TIME, (PROBABLY IN THEIR LIFETIME), THE NATIONAL FLAGS WILL COME DOWN AND THIS WORLD WILL ENTER INTO A NEW WORLD ORDER. AND JUST AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, THE HISTORY OF THIS PRESENT AGE WILL ENTER INTO ITS FINAL PHASE. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WOULD BE CALLED UPON TO TAKE THEIR STAND BEFORE KINGS AND RULERS. BUT TODAY'S OVER-INDULGED WESTERN CHRISTIANS HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED THAT THE PEOPLE JESUS HAS SPOKEN ABOUT MIGHT BE THEM.

Gideon7620 said, now in the past we have been lied to, preached to, and told that Christ can come anytime and we should be prepared. This preperation involves church membership to false doctrine, working hard to make the church numbers grow, and giving all you can to the church, and singing God bless America. Aferall, we must be ready as they claim Jesus will come at any moment. So you better prepare and work for the church and stand behind the country. Now this preparation seems to lack preparation.

On the other hand a post trib view is, no Jesus can not come at any moment, yet, atleast. First we must experience all the prophecies first, the wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, plagues, and a new world order. We further must witness the rebuilding of the wall and temple, the abomination that make desolate, the persecution and murders of many saints wprld wide (including and spawning from America or the Harlot Babylon), God's divine deliverences and his plagues he will pour out on the antichrist and the unsaved. Then will the sky be darkened; probably resulting from Hydrogen bombs and warfare. Then and only then will the son of man return in the clouds of Heaven, having great Glory and parosia, brilliant power. For this reason he shall destroy Satan with the brightness and power of His return. Jesus's glory is too great to be hidden or kept secret in a mysterious hidden return. Nowhere do we see or read, he will not be seen in his return. In Revealation 1 we are told every eye shall see him. That must be a very glorious sight for all to see. In the end of his great commission we are told in like manner as you have seen him go so shall he return, in clouds and great glory, parosia.

LQQk at me, as Jack Van Impe would say, surely these false prophets want you to believe Jesus is coming anytime. They are preparing the saints for a unexpected and unlearned of slaughter by Babylon, America. We will be here for the slaughter, but they want you to think, Jesus would never do that to his bride. Well he has done it for 2,000 years and what makes you think matters will suddenly change. They also want you to do all you can to for Jesus as he could come at anytime, so give me more money. Now you do not want Jesus to be upset if you do not give all you can. Give me more, he could come right now, today. That is a lie of the devil as much prophecy must be fulfilled yet. The pretribulation rapture VIEW has been used by churches to extort more money and resources from people over the ages. Jesus can come anytime so give more of your time, money and energy to the pastor and church. Forget about all the other important matters. Do not dare question the pastor on this matter. He is a man of God and knows all, inspite of what you read and interpret in the Bible. Only great men of wisdom can figure out the simple complexity of the return of Christ. Reminds me of the Wizard Of Ozz, as Dorothy and all are told by the Ozz man, "hey don't look behind that curtain. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am the great Ozz." Church setting and its heirarchy is all too comparable and simular.

Now we can jump back in History and see many saints persecuted and martyred for their faith in Jesus. These well known saints also clung to a biblical interpretation of a post tribulational rapture. However, when surrounded by the pressure of piers in Amercian evangelicalism, one has the tendency to go with the crowd, a monkey see monkey do mentality. We see this largely also in the Roman Catholic Church. No Roman Catholic dare question the authority and qualification of the Pope, Bishops or Priests. Though as true believers in God's word and as considering it our only authority for righteous judgement and Christian living we know they are wrong. As a bishop, shepard, pastor, and overseer must first be married, and the husband of one wife, not one practicing celebacy and molesting little altar boys. There are other qualifications also, as we know. Catholics do not see this and yeild to pier pressure and cultism. This monkey see and do mentality is carried on to doctrinal interpretation amoungst Protestants with regard to escatology. Most believe in the pretrib falacy because their pastor does, as his daddy, the Christian College he went to does also, and his pastor does as well. Unfortunately, they have never taken a close look at it in scripture to easily prove otherwise as we will learn here later.

Carl F. Keil (AD 1807-1888) " … the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the Church of the Lord ... (Biblical Commentary, YXMV, p. 503)15

Charles Hodge (AD 1797-1878) "...the fate of his Church here on earth ... is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, III, p. 827)14

Morgan Edwards (AD 1722-1795) "[Antichrist] has hitherto assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on earth'..."(Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20)13


Roger Williams (AD 1603-1683) "Antichrist ... hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast " (The Bloody Tenent etc., p. 153)12


John Knox (AD 1515-1572) “the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come ... to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist... " (The Historie of the Reformation etc., 1, p. 76)11

Martin Luther (AD 1483-1546) "[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church.... " (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481)10


Roger Bacon (AD 1214-1274) " … future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist... " (Opus Majus II, p. 634)9


Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3) 6



Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.

Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).

Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)1

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in wh


Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "the man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).

Now, if Justin Martyr was all the proof we had along with scripture I would certainly believe in a post tribulation rapture or a premellinial rapture. The Bible alone should convince us, but thanks be to God we have the testimony of many great Christian men to help with that process. Historically, it is easy to prove there was no such thing as a pre tribulation rapture thought even. There is nothing purer than the laws of first mention. We see clearly that early saints followed and practiced the doctrines and teachings of the apostles, even unto death.

Today we want big screen TV, Pepsi, beer, fast food, and a football game. With this Western Christians are content.

This post has been edited by Gideon7620: Aug 20 2008, 01:02 PM

Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."
.........................................benny

"Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

>Correct

>The trumpets in Joel are Israel's trumpets and related to the time of Jacob's trouble

>These trumpets are not related to the church at all

>I must point out that most post-tribulation runners are replacement theologists and they mix Israel and the church in prophecy as they interpret .... the scriptures do not

>This one biblical truth of a separate and believing remnant part of national Israel in the land during the tribulation period is a PT killer and this is why those who run this course must deny it

>The other major PT killer are the mortal populations of the Lord's millennial kingdom who will be the "believing" mortal survivors of the tribulation period

>If one wants to straighten out the kinky PT buff ..... these two Biblical truths alone put them away

>They rant continuously in vain against the Lord's early "harpazo" action for the church [a very high risk rant] and simply ignore these two PT killers

>There are dozens more, but these two are sudden death for the PTer

>Put these on them and watch them wiggle and sweat

>Number three is just as powerful and the knock out punch

>The Day of the Lord is an extended time frame with time lapse ..... not just one "day" as the PTer claims

>Use a Bible search engine on "the Day of the Lord" and see the truth [I have one if any want it]

>Anyone who concludes otherwise is manipulating the descriptions given of the multitude of events that must take place during the Day of the Lord .....in "one" day .... no way

>These three biblical truths wil swipe the Pter off of the map and if you must debate with the likes of them ..... focus on these truths and the game will be over

>Otherwise study the Word, preach the truth, and ignore the scoffers of the PT club

I must say that all pretribers are modern day dispensationalist, following corrupt doctrines of Darbyism, Scofieldism, and the False Doctrines of the Plymouth Bretheren. This doctrine of pretribulationalism came into existance in the early to mid 1800's. Prior to this all church fathers, especially early, early church fathers were posttrbulationalist.


HERE IS THE proof.

There fore this eroneous, wicked, false doctrine crept into the church starting in the mid 1800's.

I want to say I love this Christian forum. I believe it is the best. If this were some other forums, I would have been excommunicated for speaking the truth, contrary to popular belief. Thanks for the opportunity to express beliefs in God's word.

In order to make a proof that Jack Van Impe, the 700 Club, and many other mainstream conservatives, as BJU, Hyles, Liberty, Fairhaven, Maranatha, Clearwater, Oklahoma Baptist, Trinity, Tennessee Temple, and many others are wrong and misleading flocks with a false doctrine we must first start with early church history. to build a base. We do not need church history to prove the Bible as the scripture speaks for itself. But if we can prove that early saints believed what the scriptures already teach, then we can prove that the pretribulational rapture is wishful thinking, false doctrine, and tradition that started in the mid 1800's or so by apostate christian leaders that wanted to break away because of discontentments. This is the authors goal. To prove a bunch of goof balls came up with this false doctrine. As member of the body of Christ we have the responsiblity to seek out truth and the discernment to find and understand it.

During this time period of church history, America was young, undeveloped, growing, and vulnerable to its apostate shepards. Soon it, pretribulationalism, easily became the tradition and standard for most churches and movements. As America grew, this false doctrine grew with it and its churches. People followed paradosis or tradition rather than the holy scriptures. The fragmented masses of early America seeking religious guidance and religeous freedom allow this deceit to infultrate the early Western Church settings. The early American church was vulnerable to this false doctrine of pretribulatonalism.

As in early America, most most modern day evangelicals have been taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario as established fact. Most if not very few have ever had a chance to hear the Post-Tribulation Rapture position expounded. As a matter of fact most pretribulation Rapture believers have never even expounded the pretribulation heresy. The have neglected their personal responsibility to seek truth and find it in God's word. They have been programmed by mere tradition to believe that the Pre-Trib Rapture is the biblically correct truth concerning the closing dramas of this age.

But are they correct about this early secret Rapture seen nowhere in the Bible?
Is there any sound scriptural proof of this?
Do they have any solid Biblical evidence for it at all? The answers to all these questions are no, no, no. There is nothing in the Bible that even hints to this dogma. It is merely wishful thinking and a fairy tale, supported by a corrupted church or evengelical movement, lost in its historic heretical tradition.


Church History Proves a Late Post-Tribulation Rapture

Here in this segment we will start with modern day examples and move on to more ancient ones. We will proceed in reverse chronilogical order. We will save the best for the last as the old saying goes.

As believers we must be able to diipher the difference between tribulation, persecution, and the wrath of God. We are told in I Thessalonians Chapter 5, Verse 9 says, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Pretribers take this verse and interpret it as saying, God hath noth appointed you to tribulation and persecution, brought on by Satan. He has appointed you to obtain salvation, by a secret rapture, that noone knows about. Now does that verse really say that. No, ofcourse not, but rather, they should interpret this, God has not appointed you to the fires of hell but to obain salvation throught the blood of Christ. God has not appointed you to the wrath he will pour out on this world during the Great Tribulation, but to obtain, divine deliverence as he did with the children of Israel in Egypt, during the Exodus. As saints we will not be immuned to the persecutions and tribulations that Satan will pour out on the saints. We will however be immuned to the wrath God will pour out on the unsaved, Mathew 24:15-21, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 9:25-27, Mark 13:1-37, Revelation 6:1-17, Gods Wrath on the unsaved is seen in Revelation 8:1-13. , Revelation 13, Revelation 15:1,2, Revelation 20:4-6. Now that we have a reasonalble idea of the differences between God'd wrath, and Satan's persecution, and tribulation we can go on to the first early saint in reverse chronilogical order.

Corrie Ten Boom is a survivor of Hitler's Holocaust. CORRIE TEN BOOM IN THIS LETTER BELOW COMMENTS ON THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE VIEW WHICH IS POPULAR TODAY. AND SHE RELAYS A WORD OF WARNING TO US IN THE WEST FROM THE SUFFERING YET VICTORIOUS UNDERGROUND CHURCH IN CHINA. SHE EXHORTS US TO PREPARE OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST, IN HIS HOLY WORD, AND BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT FOR THE COMING TRIALS OF OUR FAITH. SHE TELLS OF THE CHINESE CHURCH IN A FORMER TIME BEING MISINFORMED, UNWARNED, AND ILL-PREPARED FOR THE PERSECUTIONS THAT BEGAN IN 1949 UNDER MAO TSE TUNG'S RED GUARDS. IN THIS LETTER CORRIE ALSO WARNS THAT CHRISTIANS IN THE WEST TODAY ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF FALLING INTO A SIMILAR DISASTER BORN OF PASTORAL NEGLECT AND UNPREPAREDNESS. CORRIE, IN CLASSIC DUTCH DIRECTNESS, PLAINLY STATES THAT THOSE WHO TEACH A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE ARE AMONG THE FALSE TEACHERS JESUS WARNED US ABOUT. (-Mat.24:4-5) Many shall say here is Christ or there, believe them not. Christ in his entirety is found in Word of God. There are no gimics or secret codes or traditions to follow.

Corrie Ten Boom a Christian girl in Holland during World War II, lived there at that time the German Nazis controlled Europe. She, her sister, and father were captured by the Germans. Their crime was sheltering Jews. For this they were sent to the camps. Only Corrie survived. Corrie Ten Boom was a woman of faith and commitment to her Jesus. She knows of God's provision during the inevitable trials of our faith. This incredible woman of God is a lone voice speaking out for scriptural truth in the present eschatological wilderness. She has sounded a trumpet warning to American and western Christians. She has spoken out very specifically about the popular Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching abroad today. Here is Corrie Ten Boom's warning to the American church.


Here is part of it, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS BLOOD COVENANT ISSUE. WE MUST DISCARD ALL OUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND FANCIES. LET US SEARCH THE HOLY SCRIPTURES WITH ALL DILIGENCE IN TRUE BEREAN FAITHFULNESS. NOWHWERE IN SCRIPTURE SHALL WE FIND ONE SINGLE VERSE TO PROVE THAT WESTERN CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS ARE "OUTTA HERE" BEFORE THE RESURRECTION AT THE END OF THIS AGE. HOLY HISTORY STILL AWAITS THE "FINAL WITNESS" OF THE SAINTS. THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL PLAY THIS CRUCIAL ROLE IN THE END-TIME DRAMA. THE LATTER DAYS WILL SEE THE SAINTS GO UP ONTO THE STAGE OF HISTORY. BUT SAD TO REPORT, OUR PRESENT DAY LUKEWARM COMPROMISED LAODICEAN CHURCH IS SILENT ABOUT THIS. THE RELIGIOUS HIERARCHIES DO NOT SEEM TO THINK THAT SHARING THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM BIBLE PROPHECY IS IMPORTANT. BUT MESSIAH'S RETURN IS AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. HE HAS GIVEN US HIS WORD ON THE MATTER. AND CHRISTIANS WHO HOLD A BIBLICAL WORLD VIEW ARE PAYING ATTENTION AND TAKING THE INITIATIVE THEMSELVES. THEY ARE PREPARING THEIR HEARTS.

SO IN THE MAINSTREAM CHURCHES THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS A NEGLECTED AND ALMOST FORGOTTEN TRUTH. "RELIGI-BUSINESS" COMES FIRST FOR THEM IT SEEMS. AND SO THESE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF CHRISTIAN MINISTRY ARE BEING SORELY NEGLECTED. CHURCHMEN ARE FAILING TO WARN AND PREPARE COMFORTABLE WESTERN CHRISTIANS TO TAKE UP THEIR CROSS. VERY FEW CHRISTIANS ARE EVEN AWARE THAT AT SOME FUTURE TIME, (PROBABLY IN THEIR LIFETIME), THE NATIONAL FLAGS WILL COME DOWN AND THIS WORLD WILL ENTER INTO A NEW WORLD ORDER. AND JUST AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, THE HISTORY OF THIS PRESENT AGE WILL ENTER INTO ITS FINAL PHASE. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WOULD BE CALLED UPON TO TAKE THEIR STAND BEFORE KINGS AND RULERS. BUT TODAY'S OVER-INDULGED WESTERN CHRISTIANS HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED THAT THE PEOPLE JESUS HAS SPOKEN ABOUT MIGHT BE THEM.

Gideon7620 said, now in the past we have been lied to, preached to, and told that Christ can come anytime and we should be prepared. This preperation involves church membership to false doctrine, working hard to make the church numbers grow, and giving all you can to the church, and singing God bless America. Aferall, we must be ready as they claim Jesus will come at any moment. So you better prepare and work for the church and stand behind the country. Now this preparation seems to lack preparation.

On the other hand a post trib view is, no Jesus can not come at any moment, yet, atleast. First we must experience all the prophecies first, the wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, plagues, and a new world order. We further must witness the rebuilding of the wall and temple, the abomination that make desolate, the persecution and murders of many saints wprld wide (including and spawning from America or the Harlot Babylon), God's divine deliverences and his plagues he will pour out on the antichrist and the unsaved. Then will the sky be darkened; probably resulting from Hydrogen bombs and warfare. Then and only then will the son of man return in the clouds of Heaven, having great Glory and parosia, brilliant power. For this reason he shall destroy Satan with the brightness and power of His return. Jesus's glory is too great to be hidden or kept secret in a mysterious hidden return. Nowhere do we see or read, he will not be seen in his return. In Revealation 1 we are told every eye shall see him. That must be a very glorious sight for all to see. In the end of his great commission we are told in like manner as you have seen him go so shall he return, in clouds and great glory, parosia.

LQQk at me, as Jack Van Impe would say, surely these false prophets want you to believe Jesus is coming anytime. They are preparing the saints for a unexpected and unlearned of slaughter by Babylon, America. We will be here for the slaughter, but they want you to think, Jesus would never do that to his bride. Well he has done it for 2,000 years and what makes you think matters will suddenly change. They also want you to do all you can to for Jesus as he could come at anytime, so give me more money. Now you do not want Jesus to be upset if you do not give all you can. Give me more, he could come right now, today. That is a lie of the devil as much prophecy must be fulfilled yet. The pretribulation rapture VIEW has been used by churches to extort more money and resources from people over the ages. Jesus can come anytime so give more of your time, money and energy to the pastor and church. Forget about all the other important matters. Do not dare question the pastor on this matter. He is a man of God and knows all, inspite of what you read and interpret in the Bible. Only great men of wisdom can figure out the simple complexity of the return of Christ. Reminds me of the Wizard Of Ozz, as Dorothy and all are told by the Ozz man, "hey don't look behind that curtain. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am the great Ozz." Church setting and its heirarchy is all too comparable and simular.

Now we can jump back in History and see many saints persecuted and martyred for their faith in Jesus. These well known saints also clung to a biblical interpretation of a post tribulational rapture. However, when surrounded by the pressure of piers in Amercian evangelicalism, one has the tendency to go with the crowd, a monkey see monkey do mentality. We see this largely also in the Roman Catholic Church. No Roman Catholic dare question the authority and qualification of the Pope, Bishops or Priests. Though as true believers in God's word and as considering it our only authority for righteous judgement and Christian living we know they are wrong. As a bishop, shepard, pastor, and overseer must first be married, and the husband of one wife, not one practicing celebacy and molesting little altar boys. There are other qualifications also, as we know. Catholics do not see this and yeild to pier pressure and cultism. This monkey see and do mentality is carried on to doctrinal interpretation amoungst Protestants with regard to escatology. Most believe in the pretrib falacy because their pastor does, as his daddy, the Christian College he went to does also, and his pastor does as well. Unfortunately, they have never taken a close look at it in scripture to easily prove otherwise as we will learn here later.

Carl F. Keil (AD 1807-1888) " … the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the Church of the Lord ... (Biblical Commentary, YXMV, p. 503)15

Charles Hodge (AD 1797