We need to be very careful to the conclusions we draw from the word of God. There is much false doctrine today, due to the simple fact, that the natural man likes to draw conclusions, based on Assumptions. Let me give you a good example.

[/indent]What can we conclude from this passage? The blood red moon event will occur BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES. This is all we know!! What we are not told, is how far Before the Day of the Lord this occurs.. Is it a day, a month, or 3 1/2 years before the Day of the Lord? Lets view another event..

QUOTE

Joel 3:13-15 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get ye down: for the press if full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE STARS SHALL WITHDRAW THEIR SHINING.....

MOST HAVE ASSUMED, THAT THE "BLOOD RED MOON EVENT" is the same event when the Sun and moon are darkened. It isn't. It is quite clear that the blood red moon event occurs Before the day of the Lord comes, but the Sun AND MOON ARE DARKENED (not turned blood red) at the time of the harvest, in the day of the Lord.

We witness the Blood red moon event occuring in the Sixth seal of revelation (Rev. 6:12), Before the day of the Lord, but we witness the Sun and moon being Darkened,, when the harvest occurs in Rev. 14:15-20. THESE ARE TWO SEPERATE EVENTS.

We witness the people in the Sixth seal, HIDE FROM the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and proclaim that the DAy of the Lord IS COME? But how could this be, if the Blood red moon event occurs BEFORE the DAY OF THE LORD COMES???? These folks aint saying it is the beginning of the day of the Lord, they are Saying they are in it!!! But this all occurs before the day of the Lord comes, so what is going on here???? They are accepting an event that APPEARS TO BE the DAY OF THE LORD, BUT ISN'T!! WHAT ONE DOESN'T REALISE, Is when we "confuse" the blood red moon event, with the event that occurs in the end (the sun AND moon shall be darkened), One unknowingly, is leading others, right into the arms of Antichrist!!! We need to make a distinction between these two events. One occurs before the DAy of the Lord, the other, In the day of the Lord! [indent]

We mustn't "assume" anything about God's word. The results if we do, will be tragic!!

Hello Joshleet,

QUOTE
Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be truned into darkness, and the moon into blood,BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the Lord comes.
[/indent]What can we conclude from this passage? The blood red moon event will occur BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES. This is all we know!!

My response: Christ provides us with an answer.

Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So, immediately after the tribulation period will Joel’s prophecy be fulfilled.

You stated: What we are not told, is how far Before the Day of the Lord this occurs.. Is it a day, a month, or 3 1/2 years before the Day of the Lord?

My response: Both Joel and Christ are stating that there will be period of time which lies between the end of the tribulation period and the Day of the LORD. The only other reference that I am aware of which provides us with a duration of this time period is the account of the two witnesses.

If you review it you will notice that the two witnesses prophecy for the 1260 days of the GT. At the conclusion of the 1260 days they are killed and there bodies are left to rot on the streets of Jerusalem for 3 ½ days. After which they are resurrected on the Day of the LORD.

So, indirectly we are provided with the duration of this period which happens to be 3 ½ days.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

For the readers:

There are two facets to the tribulation period

The beginning of it .... and the ending of it

There will be a 7 year time lapse between

Both of these frame pieces are described in scripture and they are not the same event

Revelation 6:12 describes the beginning .....Matthew 24:29 describes the ending

Careful reading of these passages will reveal the differences

Revelation 6:12 will front the tribulation period and will signify its beginning

Matthew 24:29 signifys the ending of the period

All of the signs and events given are for the tribulation period and lead up to the Lord's appearing to the surviving mortals world just after the period is over

There will be none of the signs and events that are given in the prophetic scriptures prior to the beginning of the tribulation period

The Lord will come as a "thief" to bring His judgment period of the tribulation ..... the begining events of the day of the Lord .....His day

A day of His anger, wrath, and judgment against an intransigent unbelieving world

There will be no prior warning

In "BIBLE STUDIES"/"BIBLE TYPES AND PATTERNS"/"who is "Mystery Babylon"

a difference of opinion has emerged.

Has the coming of Jesus in power as per Rev 19 already happened,

OR is this event to be expected in the future ?

Is Satan currently locked up as per Rev 20,

OR will Satan be locked up in the future?

Has the 1000 year reign of Christ as per Rev 20 already commenced,

OR will it occur in the future?

I earnestly solicit Christian input.

The fact is that none of the unfulfilled portion of visionary prophecy has taken place yet

All of these events are still future

There is nothing regarding historical events of the past from about 33 A.D. up to this very day included in the scope of the visions

Until one understands this truth the correct rendering of the visions cannot be reached

No believer, dead or alive, has been immortalized yet

The Lord has not begun His hour of trial [coming judgment]

Satan is not locked up in the abyss at this time and will not be until the end of the tribuation period

The Lord's millennial rule on the earth will not take place until just after His coming judgment

Well the 2 great events of tribulation has already occured the 2 world wars, proof? Israel got her land back.

I Know the time of the gentiles had to be fufilled, 2 days have now passed since Jesus was born of water...

"After 2 days He will revive us, on the third day raise us".

I know if Satan is let loose at the end of the millenial reign this means he was tied down at the beginning of the millenial reign.

We've already had war based tribulation, now economic tribulation is at hand. (the golden calf of Wall street).
What did Moises (Jesus) do when He returned from the mountain? All hell broke loose in the camp.
The number of the beast is love of money (you cannot buy and sell without it) the root of ALL evil.

Civil war looms if we go into depression, again more tribulation.

People don't realise that the judgement of God is here. In the past 7 years the greatest concentration of natural disasters have occured on earth. (the judgement of God)....

In 2017 will be the Jubilee for Jerusalem (50 years) and 2018 is the 70 th anniversary (year of release) for all of Israel.

But things will get ugly before it gets better.

None of the things mentioned above are contained in the scope of the details of the visions of the Bible prophets

You cannot find them there

All that is written of the unfulfilled portion of the visions is still pending

You have Just confused the two events in Joel. I think you may need to re-read my original post again. The account in Matthew 24:29, is when both the Sun and moon are darkened. This is the account in Joel 3:12-15, Not joel 2:30-31. These are two seperate events. The blood red moon event is BEFORE the day of the Lord, the sun and moon turning black, occurs at the final battle, at the Lords return.

Numbers 13-14 tell of Moses sending spies into the promised land.

10 spies came back telling of the size of the inhabitants of the land.
10 spies made the people fearful.

2 came back telling of how good and fertile the land was.
2 spies emphasized the great opportunity God had given them.

10 spies got God's disapproval.
2 spies got God's blessing.

The Revelation enables us to "spy out" the future.

Some "spys" will emphasize how "terrible" it will be when the "beast" reigns.
Thier cry is "oh Lord, get us out of here, "rapture" us before these terrible
"beast" hurt your precious darling children."

Other spies will focus on the EXCEEDINGLY WONDERFUL
opportunity and promise the Revelation lays before us.

TO REIGN WITH CHRIST !!

thats as good as it gets ! [for those who are

"victorious OVER the beast".

saints plainly here on earth during the reign of the beast]

Rev 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and
those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and
they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life
until the thousand years were completed.
This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;
over these the second death has no power,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and
will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Failure to distinguish between today's Boby of Christ [both those asleep and those living at the time] and those who will become believers and are killed in the tribulation period is a common flaw in the post-tribulational view. Revelation clearly presents the immortal church [the 24 elders and the great multitude] in heaven and around the throne just before the Lord brings His tribulation period. These will view the Lord removing the seals of the scroll. The actual events of the tribulation period do not begin until all of the seals are removed. Those who become believers during the tribulation will have a totally different experience. Most will be martyred by beheading for their faith. All of the spirits of these will have to wait under the alter [not around the throne] until the end of the period to receive their immortalization. Post tribulational thinking also misses the difference between the beginning of the period, and the end of it ..... many events scheduled will require lapse time. The beginning of the period is pre-viewed in Revelation 6:12-17, the actual events begin in chapter 8, and the end of the period is presented in Matthew 24:29-31.

Thought i'd just add a comment. Notice that the people that are killed in the tribulation, their spirits join the people that had already been taken both
dead and alive before the tribulation began. These people were told that they must wait to receive their spiritual bodies as had the other people...
but when the tribulation period ended then both the people that were taken before tribulation and those killed during tribulation, ruled a reigned with
Christ for a thousand years. Notice this was not referred to as a resurrection but the spirits receiving their spiritual bodies! The people raised after
the tribulation is referred to as the FIRST resurrection.. as they were dead in SPIRIT and BODY as they did not ask Jesus for foregiveness of their
sins and transgressions... thus they stood before the Lord at the great throne judgement to be sentenced to an eternity apart from Christ...
the lake of fire... this is the SECOND DEATH.. makes sense eh?

God bless you all.. praise the Lord Jesus for our gift of salvation.


taltimbr

These two wittnesses begin thier Ministry in the first half......when one reads the following.....the evidence revealing that the two wittnesses are in the first half is "OVERWHELMING!!!"................In the following ...there is a lot of logic........In the following, picture this scenerio....."When the Abomination of Desolation comes to pass,a countdown begins of 1,260 days that brings us to the end of Daniels 70th week.....at the end of the Great Tribulation......The Lord Jesus Christ, the angels,and the Bride will be descending towards the earth.......While this event is taking place, the battle of Armageddon is in full swing.....war and chaos is prevalent.With this in mind, picture the following and compare........Some would have you believe that the two wittnesses begin their wittnessing the day the A.O.D. begins and that 1,260 days later these two wittnesses are slain by the ac....which is true, but it does not happen at the end of the second half of the tribulation......Now after these two are slain....the whole world is celebrating and giving gifts to each other as though it were christmas....now keep in mind that as the Lord is decending to the earth, the eastern forces and western forces are in an all out battle and they are freaking out because they see the Creator of the universe making a grand entrance.....It is hard to picture the world giving gifts to each other under those conditions....it does not make sense!...now also, 3 1/2 days latter9end of 1,260th day) these two wittnesses come back to life! And they ascend towards heaven....keep in mind that the Lord had placed His feet on the Mount of Olives on the 1,260th day,which is 3 1/2 days prior to a post trib view of the two wittnesses being slain and the celebrating of their death. ...Now when the A.O.D. begins, the Jews are fleeing for their lives....The two wittnesses are wittnessing in order to bring people to the Lord!...But the Jews are nowhere around because they fled to the wilderness! once again ....placing the ministry of these two wittnesses in the second half does not make sense at all! Once again take notice the following;...The two wittnesses are slain at the end of their 1,260 days of ministry and three and a half days latter these two ascend towards heaven in the sight of all the world...and the world is intensely watching.....When the lord descends towards earth, I assure you that thier eyes are on Jesus and the unsaved are trembling and cursing the Lord. .... These two wittnesses ascend when they hear the very same VOICE say the Words..."COME UP HERE!....That is stated when the rapture happens, sometimes before the tribulation begins...also...considering that the lord is on mount olivet,..He cannot say COME UP HERE, to the two wittnesses in the second half. Also the third "WOE had not yet happened!.....In other words....evidence strongly reveals that these two wittnesses begin their wittnessing in the first half of the 7 year tribulation. Another thing to consider is the scripture stating:revelation 13;7 "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation"......These two wittnesses are "SAINTS" and so are those who except Jesus Christ after the rapture are saints, so the key word is saints!....And while these two are wittnessing for 1,260 days, the ac is helpless in doing anything to harm them....This authority is not given to the ac until their testimony is finished....Sorta like Paul, and Stephen, they were not killed until their testimony was finished........There is a big time connect between the Antichrist making "war" agains the two witnesses in Revelation 11. And the statement in Revelation 13 about who can make war against the beast? The 42 month reign of the Antichrist begins only after the two witnesses have finished their testimony.
Then and only then will power be granted to the beast to slay all the saints.
This is not the bride.The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Bride.Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.
The demons believe that Jesus is Lord and they tremble!
If Jesus be for you, who can be against you.
I the early rain the day of Penticost the disciple were empowered,....baptised by fire of the Holy Spirit,and were warriors of the Lord.A later rain is coming,.......(SMILING).....Satan does not want any part of the Bride.
Because we are bad to the bone in Christ Jesus!
We must be removed before the ac can make his move!
In a way,......the world does not want Jesus in their lives,...in a small sense,...they will get their wish.

...................................................benny
.........................................................benny

bb------>............Satan does not want any part of the Bride.
Because we are bad to the bone in Christ Jesus!
We must be removed before the ac can make his move!............
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Rev13:7
It was also given to him to make war with the saints
and to overcome them,
and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him

Rev 15:2
And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and
those who had been victorious over the beast
and his image and the number of his name,
standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

Rev 16:6
for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets,
and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."

Rev 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and
those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and
they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;
over these the second death has no power, but
they will be priests of God and of Christ and will
reign with Him for a thousand years.

J.P.,.....read again my post to your reply.
You see your reply reveals a contradiction.
You should know that there is not any contradiction in God's Word.the Following are opposites of each other
1.The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.
2.It was also given to him to make war with the saints
and to overcome them,
and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him

J.P. It is very important that we understand what is being said here.
the trib saints are not the bride.
Also,the ac is about nothing.he's just a little punk!
During Daniels 70th week, the Lord said,Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.

.................................................benny

QUOTE (benny balerio @ Sep 28 2008, 01:17 PM)

J.P.,.....read again my post to your reply.
You see your reply reveals a contradiction.
You should know that there is not any contradiction in God's Word.
the Following are opposites of each other
1.The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.
2.It was also given to him to make war with the saints
and to overcome them,
and authority over every tribe and people
and tongue and nation was given to him

No, they are not "opposite".

"Jesus's people" -"saints" - "the church" - "the saved"
ARE JUST DIFFERENT WAYS OF REFERRING TO THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE.

The "beast" will not "prevail against the church" as in defeat Jesus's people.
The "beast" will NOT DEFEAT Jesus's people.

The "beast" WILL "overcome the saints" in a temporal way.
But the "saints" [or "church" or "Jesus's people" or "people who belong to Jesus"]
will be, in MARTYRDOM "victorious" over the "beast"

Exactly as the crucified Jesus Christ was victorious over Satan
As the martyrs for the last 2000 years were victorious over Satan.
And martyrs of today in various parts of the world, mostly known only to Jesus.
Which is all that matters.

QUOTE (benny balerio @ Sep 28 2008, 01:17 PM)

J.P. It is very important that
we understand what is being said here.
the trib saints are not the bride.
Also,the ac is about nothing.he's just a little punk!
During Daniels 70th week, the Lord said,
Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
................................................benny

We would be wise to understand that the "beast" is going to wage war on the "saints"
and anyone deeming themself a Christian can expect to be right here on earth
when the final "beast" is publicly revealed and reigns.

Anyone telling Christians they can count on being "raptured"

before the "beast" appears is making a big mistake.

"Anyone telling Christians they can count on being "raptured" before the "beast" appears is making a big mistake."

Does "anyone" in your thinking include the Lord Himself?

If so you need to pay attention to the details of His communication to you

And just when does the "beast" appear in relation to the time frame of the 70th week of the tribulation period?

Give the scriptures that you draw your conclusions from .... "that no believer will be immortalized before the "beast" appears"

I find it amazing How it seems that no matter what subject is TRYING to be diccussed, it ususally falls back into a debate on the Rapture. There are enough threads on this Subject already.

[/indent]This thread is SUPPOSED TO BE looking at the differences between the Blood red moon event, which occurs before the Day of the Lord comes,)and in the sixth seal) and, the event when BOTH the sun and moon are turned black AT the time of the time of the Harvest, (which occurs way later, in Rev. 14) Now if ya all want to continue bickering over a non issue, thats fine. In the meantime, your eyes of understanding will be closed to the fact, that the blood red moon event will occur, not only prior to the Day of the Lord, but also Prior to the reign of the False Messiah.[indent]

Most here, (as I can see), have accepted the Blood red moon event to occur immediately before the Lord's return. You will continue to argue the "rapture" occurence, until the Lord comes back. You will continue to argue the rapture, until the Blood red Moon event occurs also. And because you have been so busy arguing with each other, you will have not made the discernment of the two events. You will see the blood red moon event occur, and naturaully accept the false Messiah as the real, because of It. In a previous post, I RECONCILED ALL FOUR RAPTURE VIEWS, and proved with scripture when it will occur, and how things got mixed up, because we didn't have the order of events down right. I verified it with scripture, and even that is not good enough!!! I guess you all are so content in continuing the Battle!!! I don't serve a God of confusion!

The attempt to reconcile totally opposing views of the Lord's schedule is one of introducing half truths to reconcile and explain away the real one. Deception is a mixture of truth and error. Satan suggests this approach to the Word of the Lord all of the time .... so beware of his motivations.

Steven, Why are you Even Replying to one of my Posts??? The Last "discussion" we had you expressed your desire for us to "disengage" our discussions. I have honored your request, and I have not been repying to your Posts. I only ask you Honor your own Words!!!

[/indent] I know reconciling the rapture views is out of your spectrum of understanding, Because to do so, proves what you embrace totally wrong. SO, because you have no Scripture to refute what I shared, and establish a clear picture through scripture "YOUR PERSPECTIVE", IT is so much easier to label anothers view a 'HALF TRUTH', AND FROM SATAN. There is a "half truth" being Promulgated about the end time, but unfortunately you refuse to see it, because you are so blinded by your own doctrine. [indent]

Why do you feel the need to defend the pre-trib view so ardently anyway? If there is a pre trib, as you espouse, Thank the Lord! We will all be taken out before anyything Happens. But what if there isn't?, Have you ever considered the consequences if the "harvest' is Post trib, (pre wrath) to the poeple who embrace the pre-trib view??? Will they be ready? Not "rapture ready" but "Battle ready"? will they have enough oil in their Lamps, or will they feel Like the Lord has betrayed them, as they find themselves in events, they believed all along, they were supposed to miss?? This is the damage the Pre-trib view will and does have on my brothers and sisters in Christ. So, if you want to continue Psosting your "theory" as you see it, You are free to do so, BUT DON'T DO IT ON MY POSTS!!!

All serious and learned believers have a responsibility to the Body of Christ for uncovering false teaching and to present the truth

My responses are directed to the readers of this forum in general most of the time and I will respond to any posts as I see fit

So I do not in any way accept your particular dictates

Your "shut out" strategy will not gain a thing for you

My "shut out" stratagy as you put it, is what YOU established, not I!! If you want to refute what I share, please do so so with scripture, and not some Half baked conclusion based on assumptions.[indent][/indent]Most "learned" believers as yourself, have nothing but "head knowledge" of the Word Of God. The seminaries of today are filled with them. The Word of God must be "spiritually discerned", and that can only come through the leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit. God's Rhema Knowledge is not imputed Just by Study!!! The real sad thing, is folks Like you are not able to discern the difference!! The difference between KNowing about God, and truly Knowing God, is 18 inches. Thats the distance between ones Heart Knowledge, and one own "learned" knoweldge, which you so completely trust on. So once again, I ask you to be a Man of your Word, and disengage any of my Posts. You set this standard, not I!

Lol. That was funny. And true. Good one, lol

We are in perilous times...This bickering amoung us..is unnecessary..and quite honestly petty. It is SOOOOOO easy to be caught up in this.. THis is what Satan wishes. Can you not see this? It is so transparent? Instead of focusing on the important facts, CHRIST IS COIMG! We are arguing about symantics. We should be telling EVERYONE we know about his comng. MY YOUNG SON, TOLD ME JESUS TOLD HIM TO TELL EVERYONE ABOUT JESUS!! That is my immediate focus, not all this minute little BS!

I was at the beach yesterday, and watched the sunset, the Lord wants us to focus each day and each moment on him, nothing else.



PLEASE TELL ME WHY IS THIS SOO DIFFICULT FOR US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????????

The answer is......

Satan is beside himself that we are focusing on our Lord Jesus. HE IS DESPERATE! He WILL NOT AND CAN NOT STOP AT NOTHING TO WIN AS MANY AS HE CAN OVER TO HIM....WE MUST STOP THIS!!!

THE LORD HAS DIRECTED ME TO THE GREATEST SONG..

IT IS" LOVE IS THE ANSWER" BY ENGLAND DAN AND JOHN FORD COLEY. THAT IS ALL WE NEED DO TO!!

IN JESUS CHRIST NAME I PRAY!!

Kindly cite scripture where "the Lord Himself"

tells us "rapture comes before Beast appears/reigns"

Do that, and we can all go home.



Regarding the end time events that will occur to OUR generation,
I rely on Jesus's Revelation.

More to the point, regarding the "beast"s,.............
13's "beast wages war on the saints" and the state of the "saints" in Chapters 15-16
and the wonderful promise of 20:4 to Jesus's people
all indicate clearly to me [and to some others]
that the blessed "saints"/Jesus's People/CHURCH are/were clearly
ON EARTH [and most/many Martyred] during the reign of the "beast."

I consider the real/final/great TRIBULATION of OUR generation
to start when the "beast" is publicly revealed and takes over.
Of course the "beast will rule for 42 months.



I've never written what your above attributes to me.
[if you are sure I did, then cite exact post]

Believers/saved people/saints/Jesus's CHURCH/ Jesus's people/

[however you want to put it] are on earth TODAY.

A saved person/"saint" that physically died yesterday
is now "immortal" [became "immortal" when he/she became "saved"]
and is now sleeping and will awake "immortal"
at the end of the 1000 years.

Those martyred during the reign of the "beast" are also plainly "immortal"
and will return and reign with Christ as per Rev 19-20.

Rev 14 clearly reveals the awful fate of those that worship the beast, worship his image and take his mark.
[I'm of the opinion that doing any one of the above is all it takes to put one in the lake of fire]


Some contend Christians will be removed from the earth
before the "beast" takes over.
Therefore they need not know how to identify the "beast" and the "marking."

Others contend Revelation scripture teaches that Christians [en masse]
will remain on this earth during the reign of the "beast."
Therefore the Christian is forwarned it very much behooves him/her
to know how to identify the "beast" and the "marking"
so as to KNOW beforehand who not to worship and what not to take.

We all constantly need Jesus's help in our heart and mind.

However, any person that cannot see that this "rapture timing" difference of opinion is significant,
desparately needs immediate extra help in the heart and mind that only Jesus
can provide. I strongly advise them to ask Jesus for it.



Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice,
"If anyone worships the beast and his image,
and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and
he will be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels
and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;
they have no rest day and night,
those who worship the beast and his image,
and whoever receives the mark of his name."

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints
who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying,

"Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'"

"Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors,
for their deeds follow with them."

I think that a lot of questions and doubts about when the rapture will happen would disappear if we would stick to the simple reading of the Bible. Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 show that the end time happened 2000 years ago:
Daniel was told to seal the book until the end time.
The book was not quoted by any of the prophets to follow Daniel until Jesus quoted from it.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matthew 24:15).
From this I gather that anyone who would read the book could understand it.
So, the Time of the End, the Last Days, the end, and so forth came in the days of Christ. It was the end of the world, not for us, but for Israel.

Revelation 12 shows that Satan was kicked out of heaven during the time of Christ.

The time of Christ covered the period from the announcement to Mary, until the holocaust of AD70.


Patrick

Enter radiological weapons of the 20th century and beyond and suddenly Matt. 24:21-22 takes on a whole new meaning. No, it couldn't have been literally fulfilled in the first century.

In Christ,

Mike

When the Lord returns post trib view would have all living saints raptured as He returns.This would mean that no is left on earth, except those who have the mark. This would mean there is no one to repopulate the kingdom. wrong!... the rapture is pre-trib.
Post trib say that the marriage of the bride is on the earth......Read again,

"7Let us rejoice and be exceeding glad, and let us give the glory unto him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

The marriage had already taken place in heaven.
Notice the words,...."His Wife".........It means that they were already married.
If they had not been married,....The words "His Wife",....would have said...."His Betrothed"

In the ancient Jewish wedding,when the Bride Groom returned to take His Betrothed to His Fathers house,....they would go into the bridel chamber that the Bridegroom had prepared, and the door was closed and they would stay inside for 7 days. (The 7 days is a shadowtype representing the 7 years of the tribulation)
Obviously, ...before the two went into the bridel chamber to consumate the Marriage,....They had to have already had gotten married.
In revelation 5,....we see that the redeemed are in heaven before the first seal was opened which begins the 7 year tribulation.

The 24 elders represent the Bride who was caught up to meet the Lord in the air and brought back to heaven.Once there, this is when the Bema seat event happens.As you can see the 24 elders who represent the Bride had cast their crowns before the throne in rev. chapter 4.

So after the bema seat and marriage....the Bridegroom takes His bride into the bridel chamber located in His Fathers house located in heaven.
John 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.The "place"prepared would suggest not on earth but in the New Jerusalem. That is: I have not seen any mansions being built here on earth by Christ.

.................................................benny

Benny, there is a time period, from the time the abomination of desolation occurs, and the Lord returns. DAniel speaks of this very short period of time. [quote]DAniel 12:11-12 And from the time that the Daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that Maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety Days. BLESSED IS HE THAT WAITHETH, AND COMETH TO THE THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED AND FIVE AND THIRTY DAYS. ][indent][/indent]After Daniel is given the explanation of there being a 3 1/2 year time split BETWEEN the stopping of the Sacrifices, and the abomination of Desolation, He is also told, there will be a Special blessing on those who make it through the Following 45 Days. It is in this 45 days the vials of the wrath of God are poured out. It doesn't take a brain Surgeon to figure out Mankind cannot survive very Long without any fresh water!!! This will occur in the vials. The Harvest occurs at the end of the 42 month reign of the false messiah, Preparing the way for the vials of the wrath of God being poured out. There will be survivors, those that will be around to repopulate the earth during the Lord's 1000 year reign!! But there will be few, very few!!!

Joshleet you post
Benny, there is a time period, from the time the abomination of desolation occurs, and the Lord returns. DAniel speaks of this very short period of time. [quote]DAniel 12:11-12 And from the time that the Daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that Maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety Days. BLESSED IS HE THAT WAITHETH, AND COMETH TO THE THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED AND FIVE AND THIRTY DAYS. ][indent][/indent]After Daniel is given the explanation of there being a 3 1/2 year time split BETWEEN the stopping of the Sacrifices, and the abomination of Desolation, He is also told, there will be a Special blessing on those who make it through the Following 45 Days. It is in this 45 days the vials of the wrath of God are poured out. It doesn't take a brain Surgeon to figure out Mankind cannot survive very Long without any fresh water!!! This will occur in the vials. The Harvest occurs at the end of the 42 month reign of the false messiah, Preparing the way for the vials of the wrath of God being poured out. There will be survivors, those that will be around to repopulate the earth during the Lord's 1000 year reign!! But there will be few, very few!!!

You have shortened the seven year tribulation to 3 1/2 years now you are shortening the bowls of wrath to 45 days.
There are seven seals.
Seven trumpets
Seven bowls of the wrath of God.
And we are to believe that all these judgements are going to happen in 3 1/2 years with an extra 45 days. Just so you can have your post trib view.
That is not accurate your trying to adjust your post trib view and that is obvious.
There is a peace treaty that will be signed and you have not taken it into account. which I might add begins everything.
That is a specific heads up (Don't miss this peace of information ) you are not taking into consideration to make your post trib view.
No Josh its not as you say.
And no im not a brain surgeon. lol
You are also not considering the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses.(their ministry)
Remember also that the woman (israel) will be fleeing to the mountains at the D.O.D.
Houston we have a problem.
Anyway I must say being in the Word is awsome.
Good Night

Mike:
The people who teach futurism say that "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." They get that from
a "literal" interpretation; the phrase "shall come.." causing them to conclude that all Israel shall be saved in the future, at Christ's Second Coming. Almost everyone overlooks the words of Paul, that "It is written." It was written by an Old Testament prophet long before Christ came the first time. To him it was future. Paul wrote before AD70, so even to him it was future. But not after AD70.

This prophet --- and others --- wrote that the Deliverer would come out of Sion (Jerusalem) and turn away ungodliness from Jacob. The Lord Jesus Christ did just that the first time He came. He took away the sins of Israel, as well as the whole world. Salvation of the Jews, just like the Gentiles, comes to those who accept it. It wasn't forced upon those who didn't want it, and in the future no one will be compelled to get saved if he doesn't want it.

Radiological weapons aren't mentoned in the Bible for the simple reason that in those days there weren't any. But the days of vengeance of our God, which took place in those days, was terrible enough.

Patrick

www.biblefacts.net

Preterism is a falsehood and has no support from the scriptures

Those who harbor this aberrant teaching are the scoffers of the last days

Do not follow them

You have shortened the seven year tribulation to 3 1/2 years now you are shortening the bowls of wrath to 45 days.
There are seven seals.
Seven trumpets
Seven bowls of the wrath of God.
And we are to believe that all these judgements are going to happen in 3 1/2 years with an extra 45 days. Just so you can have your post trib view.
That is not accurate your trying to adjust your post trib view and that is obvious.
There is a peace treaty that will be signed and you have not taken it into account. which I might add begins everything.
That is a specific heads up (Don't miss this peace of information ) you are not taking into consideration to make your post trib view.
No Josh its not as you say.
And no im not a brain surgeon. lol
You are also not considering the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses.(their ministry)
Remember also that the woman (israel) will be fleeing to the mountains at the D.O.D.
Houston we have a problem.
Anyway I must say being in the Word is awsome.
Good Night
[/quote]

[/indent]Before anyone can even begin to grasp what I am trying to explain about what will occur in the end time, one needs to uderstand the foundation I am builing on. First, the Last thing I am trying to do, is disprove anothers Doctrine. I don't give a rat's pitooty if one is Pre, mid, or post trib. I am not here to discuss this. My main goal and focus is to reveal the enemies "battleplans" for the end time. These "battleplans" have yet to be realized by most of the Church today!!! You can accept it, you can reject it. My job is to lay it before you! The only thing I require of anyone, is to "temporarily set Aside" the most popular held doctrines of the day, so one can view this "prophecy mountian" from a totally different perdpective. If one can do this, then one can objectively View what I am trying to share, to draw a fair conclusion.

I HAVE NOT SHORTENED THE 7 YEAR TRIB TO 3 1/2 YEARS! I have however redefined the events, the order of events, the reasons of why each event occurs according to God's Word, and what the events are accepted as by man, when they do. Let me build you a firm foundation.

In MAtthew 24, Jesus warned HIs disciples, that there would be "wars and rumors of Wars" at the end of the age... "Birthpains", or "sorrows" Jesus called them. We need to approach the Book of revelation with this in Mind. If we took the Book of revelation as a whole, and "stepped back," and Looked at the whole Spectrum of the order of events, What do we see???? We first Witness the "seals" where 1/4 of Humanity is Killed. We then Witness the "trumpets" (the first six) where we witness the 1/3 of Mankind Killed. Are we witnessing what Jesus told us about?? Are things getting progressively worse??? Yes they are!! The seals and first six trumpets, make up the "birthpains", which will lead to the 42 month reign of the false messiah. Why do we know that??? It is what is described next in Revelation. So we have the seals,( Rev. Chtr 6) the first six trumpets, (REv. Chtr 9) then the 42 month reign of the false messiah is described (11tth, 12th, 13th Chtrs).After the description of the 42 month reign of the false messiah, we then witness the the vials of the wrath of God, and the Lord's return (Rev. Chtr 14 and on..).

What most everyone is embracing as true concerning the order of events, IS TRUE, but only Partially true. The false messiah will reign for 42 months. The abomination of desolation then occurs. this is followed with the DAy of the Lord. This However, IS NOT THE TRUE 70TH WEEK, BUT IS WHAT MOST IS ACCEPTING AS TRUE.

The TRUE 70th week of Daniel, consists of 3 1/2 years of "Birthpains" first, the wars and rumors of wars. Jesus also warned us "but the end is not Yet". This was a very specific warning (not a general one like most think). Jesus knew that there will be certian events within the "Birthpains" that WILL APPEAR TO BE FULL PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT, But actually occur PRIOR TO THE 42 MONTH REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH. The CLIMAX OF THE "BIRTHPAINS" WILL BE THE EZEKIEL 38 WAR. This is also the sixth seal. When the false messiah comes to power, there will be a seven year period of time, PRIOR TO HiS REIGN, HE WILL BE ABLE TO POINT TO, AND PROCLAIM, ALL pROPHECY HAS BEEN FULFILLED, I am the returned Messiah. This is what the Book of revelation reveals.

The one who "confirms His covenant with many for one week" and stops the sacrifices in the Midst of the Week is the Messiah, and not the antichrist. Matthew 24:14 bears this out...

QUOTE

And the Gospel of the kingdom (the new covenant) shall be preached in all the world (confirmed) for a wotness unto ALL NATIONS (with many for one week) ANd THEN THE END SHALL COME.

Why would the Lord want to stop the sacrifices? Simple, He is confirming His covenant with many for One week. The Islamic world will be infuriated when the temple is rebuilt, and the sacrifices are restarted. Have you ever asked the Lord, WHY does HE bring this army down on His own LAND??? THE RESTARTIONG OF THE REGULAR SACRIFICES WILL BE A TOTAL ABOMINATION TO GOD!! If you have any doubt about this, Read Amos 5:20.

There is no need for any Peace treaty, treaty, or seven year agreement, to go forth to begin the final Seven year period!! Try to get that out of your Head!!!! The true 70th week consists of 3 1/2 years of Birthpains, which will climax in the "midst" of the week, when the sacrifices are STOPPED!!! THIS WILL BE FOLLOWED BY THE 42 MONTH REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH. At the END of His reign, the abomination of desolation occurs,(Dan 12:11) which opens the door for the vials of the wrath of God to be poured out, and the day of the Lord to begin.

Let me paint for you a portriat of end time events as I see them unfolding. This may help you understand.

Israel is Heading for another war, which will probably bring on the destruction of Damascus. After this war, a treaty, backed by America will be signed (but it will not have any prophetical signifgance whatsoever). there will be 3 1/2 years of "peace". This will be followed by the 3 1/2 years of "birth pains" which cllimax with yet another war in Israel. The ezekiel 38 war. The World, and Many, many, decieved by their own Heart believers, will "look back" and see a seven year period they have percieved to be the 70th week. They have Just accepted the first half of the true 70th week, the Birthpains, AS THE LAST HALF OF A SEVEN YEAR PERIOD, That WILL BE ACCEPTED BY MOST AS FULFILLED PROPHECY. AnD THIS IS WHY THE FALSE MESSIAH IS ACCEPTED AS GOD! The returned Messiah!! Remember what Jesus said....

QUOTE

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour THAT YOU THINK NOT, THE SON OF MAN COMETH

[indent]

Nobody, absolutely nobody, will be expecting the Lord to return, if they thought He already has!!! They are eating and drinking, Marrying and given and marriage.... A false Marriage Supper to the False Bridegroom. This is the reason the Church is called the great Whore in the end time. She has married the wrong bridegroom!!!

"Nobody, absolutely nobody, will be expecting the Lord to return, if they thought He already" has!!!

>Nonsense

>Totally illogical and a perversion of the plain truth of scriptures on the subject

>An attempt to retro-fit a false precept

They don't CONTRADICT.



I responded to your contention that "gates of hell shall not prevail"

and "beast overcoming the saints" are "opposites".

You did not respond to my response.

If we don't respond to one another,
then we are just wasting electricity and time.




Collectively the "saints" can be referred to as the "bride of Christ", or the "Church" or "Jesus's people"
and probably a few other names I can't think of right now.



"rapture next" folks seem to think "blessed are those that
are whisked away from here before having to "die in the Lord".






Those that "reign with Christ" will have children,

and the children will have children and so on and so on.

Large earthly population pretty fast.

BTW- marriage and reproduction are not the same.



Where in REVELATION is "seven years" specified for the "tribulation" ?

OTOH, I do see that the "beast" reigns for THREE YEARS and SIX MONTHS.



Sounds proper to me.



I trust you meant Revelation 15 . Typo. no problem.



Scripture stating that if you please.



I have no reason to think the 24 elders "represent the Bride."

No reason at all. And I don't know what you mean by "Bema".



Jesus spoke the words of John 14:3 BEFORE Jesus recieved the REVELATION.

Do you think Jesus knew the content of the Rev before God gave it to Him ?

They don't CONTRADICT.



I responded to your contention that "gates of hell shall not prevail"

and "beast overcoming the saints" are "opposites".

You did not respond to my response.

If we don't respond to one another,
then we are just wasting electricity and time.




Collectively the "saints" can be referred to as the "bride of Christ", or the "Church" or "Jesus's people"
and probably a few other names I can't think of right now.



"rapture next" folks seem to think "blessed are those that
are whisked away from here before having to "die in the Lord".






Those that "reign with Christ" will have children,

and the children will have children and so on and so on.

Large earthly population pretty fast.

BTW- marriage and reproduction are not the same.



Where in REVELATION is "seven years" specified for the "tribulation" ?

OTOH, I do see that the "beast" reigns for THREE YEARS and SIX MONTHS.



Sounds proper to me.



I trust you meant Revelation 15 . Typo. no problem.



Scripture stating that if you please.



I have no reason to think the 24 elders "represent the Bride."

No reason at all. And I don't know what you mean by "Bema".



Jesus spoke the words of John 14:3 BEFORE Jesus recieved the REVELATION.

Do you think Jesus knew the content of the Rev before God gave it to Him ?


HAD SOME KIND OF PUTER GLITCH. DIDN'T MEAN TO POST TWICE. SORRY BOUT THAT.

GOD’S COVENANT WITH MAN
Dispensational futurism is founded largely on the concept that many of God’s covenants with Israel were unconditional. Dispensationalists have developed “formulas” to determine which covenants were conditional, and which were not. By their “formula,” which is highly subjective, only one covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, was conditional. All the rest, supposedly, were unconditional.

But one clear verse in Scripture settles the question of whether God would ever make an
unconditional covenant with anybody. “Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;” (Deut. 7:9) This verse says that, once God make a covenant with anybody, He will keep that covenant for a thousand generations. That is usually understood to mean forever. Is this promise, however, unconditional? No! God will keep His promise — but only to those who love Him and keep His commandments. That is not the wording of an unconditional covenant.

What happens to those who do not love Him, and who do not keep His commandments? The next verse reveals: “And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face” (Deut. 7:10).

When Christ came to His own 2000 years ago, not many received Him. Those who did not, and rejected Him to the end, were burned up in the city by the Romans, and others were carried off captive. God is not waiting 2000 or more years to punish an arbitrary generation of Jews who had nothing to do with rejecting and crucifying Christ; He punished the guilty generation while they were still alive.

Patrick

Visit My Tiny Website

"rapture next" folks seem to think "blessed are those that
are whisked away from here before having to "die in the Lord".

>They are, the scriptures tell:

>The dead in Christ shall awake and those living at the time will be "caught up" together with them to meet the Lord. The living at the moment will not have time to die physically ... they will be translated instantly

"Who so ever believes in me though he were dead, yet shall he live. And who lives and believes in me shall never die"

>This is the Lord's "harpazo" action


"Do you think Jesus knew the content of the Rev before God gave it to Him ?"

>Absolutely

>Who do you think Jesus Christ is?

>He is the Lord God that you will encounter in one way or another

>He has existed from the beginning

>All things were created by Him

......and all references to the Lord in both the O.T. and N.T. are .... Guess who?

>Who is the spirit and generator of all Bible prophecy penned by the prophets?

>Who do you think?

Who do you think you will see when you see "God" at your encounter?

Who is the Lord continuously spoken of in the visions of the Bible prophets?

"Dispensational futurism is founded largely on the concept that many of God’s covenants with Israel were unconditional"

Actually the Bible tells of this truth .... all of the Lord's dealings with the nation are still valid

The nation has been punished for it intransigence in the ancient past and during habitation in the nations, but the Lord is setting the stage for the time of the end and Israel is still the covenant nation compared to the other nations of the world

For example the covenant of the 70 weeks of years decreed for the nation will be fulfilled during the 70th which is still pending

Take a look at the Middle East today and read your Bible

Preterism is flawed and there is no truth to the rendering regarding the Lord's time line for Israel

Don't let the call of the preterist blind you to the truth

Rev 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say,
"Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor,
for their deeds will follow them."

Stephen prefers "blessed are those that get whisked away before having to die in the Lord"

Reader, believe whoever you want to.

Personally I'm going with the Rev. I want to live forever.


JP wrote -->"Do you think Jesus knew the content of the Rev before God gave it to Him ?"


The Son of God.



Unlike Trinitarians, I believe the following is true.

1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God,
God lives in him and he in God.

He is the Lord, but I see you missing this truth because you say that He does not know the end from the beginning

He does

You told Benny that Jesus Christ did not know what was in His Book of Revelation before it was written

Impossible for Him not to know before He gave His own revelation

He knows everything from the beginning of creation and always has

If you would study the visions of the O.T. prophets, which are His own words that He gave them, and His related discourse of the time of the end ..... you would have a different view than you do regarding Bible prophecy

Example .... Daniel 8:9, 8:23, and 11:36 details the rise and actions of the little horn, king of the northern Middle East ... Satan's beast ["antichrist"]

You say this is JFK .... or maybe the pope

No way

You ignore much of the composite detail of all Bible prophecy and then make wild speculations

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-22).
As even the futurists admit, "Jerusalem compassed with armies" refers to the invasion of the city by Vespasian, and then Titus, in about AD66. And then Jesus said that "these would be the days of vengeance, that all things written may be fulfilled."

All things written (including all O.T. prophecy) were fulfilled by the end of that war between Israel and Rome in AD70; there is no way to get around that short of perverting Scripture. According to the New Testament, God owes the nation of Israel absolutely nothing. The job of evangelizing the world was taken from them, and given to the Church. (We didn't get all those material blessings and other perks promised to Israel; we only got the job.}

Not to worry, though. Before the day of vengeance, Christ took all the faithful Jews into heaven with Him. What we have left on earth are Pseudo-Jews, those would-be Jews who reject Christ, but yet consider themselves the "apple of God's eye." They are sadly mistaken, and we Christians, who should know better, are actually encouraging them in their folly.

Patrick

Visit My Tiny Website

"As even the futurists admit, "Jerusalem compassed with armies" refers to the invasion of the city by Vespasian, and then Titus, in about AD66."

I do not admit, or entertain this interpretive error at all

The scriptures you give are still pending fulfillment

And I will tell you why, not to mention that all of the related events given did not take place in and around 70 A.D.

There is nothing in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets from about 33 A.D. until this very day ..... nothing in any of them

All future events scribed by the prophets including the Lord's discourse are still pending ..... every detail

Preterism is an off course theology .... one which I am very familiar with, and I must tell you that you are clinging to another gospel that is not of the Bible

If you have come to debate on this matter you will have to do it with others on the forum because any attempt to sell me on preteristic theology would be an exercise in futility for you

If you need assistance in understanding why your position is flawed I would be willing to accommodate you in a respectful manner .... but if you are just interested in the battle that most preterists desire, I am not.

Rev 3:21

To him who overcomes,

I will give the right to sit with me on my throne,

just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I looked for a promise from Jesus that those who
are whisked away will sit with Him on His throne.
Couldn't find it.