[/indent] Consider the following Possability. All views of the Rapture are predicated on when Certian events occur. We need to revisit these events. Have you ever considered the possability, we may have gotten the order of events mixed up? If we did, seeing the "rapture" is established by other events, wouldn't this bring us to a false conclusion? I think it would!! Before we explore each "rapture theory", we need to go back to the "foundation" of events, that one has used to build a legitamate defense to each rapture view. There is one passage of Scripture that seems to be constantly overlooked when dealing with end time events. The reason this passage is overlooked, that if one did take it at face value, it would actually Reconcile all Four rapture views, and greatly Change the order of events of the Last days, that have been accepted as true, without question. This scripture is found in DAniel 12. Before we explore this scripture we need to understand the setting, and the reason why Daniel was given this scripture. Through the 11th, and most of the 12th Chapters of Daniel, He is given a "blow by blow" account of what will occur in the final seven year period. Two events that are described, are the stopping of the sacrifiecs, (DAniel 11:31) and the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:45-12:2). At the end of Daniel's prophecy, Daniel asks a Question.....The four rapture views have now been reconciled. Are you willing to "Set aside" all the doctirne that Keeps so many bickering and fighting? Can you accept the Pure Word of God, or is your doctrine more important?QUOTEDAniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall BE THE END OF THESE THINGS?DANIEL IS GIVEN AN ANSWER WITH A CONDITION. DAniel 12:9 "the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand: BUT THE. WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND. Daniel is then given a time frame between two events that he just described in this prophecy.QUOTEDaniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken awy, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.Now, Setting aside all Doctrine of "presumed truth", Isn't this passage of Scripture estabilshing a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT between the stopping of the Sacrifices, and the abomination of desolation? Lets for a moment, say God's word is true (pun intended), and there is a 3 1/2 year time split between these two events. What conclusions then could we draw? KNowing the sacrifices are stopped mid-week, that could only mean the abomination of desolation MUST OCCUR at the end of the 70th week, and it does not occur simultaineously, when the sacrifices are stopped. However, if this is true, this would also change the true relationship of the Day of the Lord to the 70th week. Mosat Doctrine today, try to "cram" the Day of the Lord into the second half of the 70th week. UNderstanding this "time Split between events, proves that thoery wrong. If the abomination of Desolation occurs at the end of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years AFTER the stopping of the sacrifices, that can only Mean, the TRUE day of the Lord Immediatly FOLLOWS THE 70TH WEEK, AND in no way can be a part of it!!Although the true 70th week is a time of Trouble, it is the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE. MATTHEW 24 BEARS OUT THAT THE "GREAT TRIBULATION' WILL FOLLOW the time of Jacobs trouble.QUOTEMatthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give Her light....So lets do some "re-labeling". Lets address the 70th week, for what it truly is, "the time of Jacob's trouble". The "great tribulation period", The time God's wrath and Judgement is poured out will immediately follow the 70th week. So, if we do this event re-alignment, what does this do to the four rapture theories? It reconciles them! Consider the following...Pre-tribulation Rature, is this true? Yes it is. The pre-trib views foundation is based on "we are not destined to face the wrath of God". But when does the wrath and Judgement of God truly fall? Immediately after the time of Jacob's trouble, or the 70th week. It is "pre-trib" but it is Only Pre "great trib," not pre 70th week. Mid tribulation rapture. Is this true? Partly! It is true the "harvest" does occur very close to the abomination of desolation. Most have concluded that it was "mid-week" but Daniel 12:11 reveals a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT, and places the event, at the end of the 70th week, befeore the "great tribulation period."POst trib, Is this true? Yes it is, for the harvest must occur at the end of the age, at the end of the 70th week. The end of the 70th week is also the end of the 42 onth reign of the false Messiah.Pre-wrath Is this true? Yes it is. The Day of the Lord cannot begin untill the following Happens. The harvest must occur. The Lord promised his people 70 full weeks of years, not 69 1/2. For the Lord to keep His promise, HE CANNOT POUR OUT HIS WRATH, untill the end of the 70th week. [indent]
Full Version: Rapture Views Reconciled
No matter what perspective of the Rapture one may embrace, Whether pre, mid, post, or pre wrath, each seems to have legitamate scripture to back up ones belief. But how could this be? Do we serve a God of Confusion? I don't think So!
I posted this under another topic, and I think it might have gotten passed over..
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
QUOTE (HeIsFaithful @ Sep 19 2008, 05:40 PM) 
I posted this under another topic, and I think it might have gotten passed over..
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
I too, Have often wondered if maybe certian events prophesied to occur will happen in the millineul reign of Christ. The word of God is the Word of God and it shall never pass away!! I guess we can almost consider it the "constitution" to the new Kingdom as Christ reigns. [indent][/indent]However, concering events prophesied to occur in Daniel, it is quite apparent, that we are dealing in an age Prior to the 1000 year reign. For instance, Daniel 11 uses terms as "the king of the south, and the King of the north". In the 1000 year reign, there will only be one King, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Sep 19 2008, 04:12 PM)
No matter what perspective of the Rapture one may embrace, Whether pre, mid, post, or pre wrath, each seems to have legitamate scripture to back up ones belief. But how could this be? Do we serve a God of Confusion? I don't think So!
[/indent] Consider the following Possability. All views of the Rapture are predicated on when Certian events occur. We need to revisit these events. Have you ever considered the possability, we may have gotten the order of events mixed up? If we did, seeing the "rapture" is established by other events, wouldn't this bring us to a false conclusion? I think it would!! Before we explore each "rapture theory", we need to go back to the "foundation" of events, that one has used to build a legitamate defense to each rapture view. There is one passage of Scripture that seems to be constantly overlooked when dealing with end time events. The reason this passage is overlooked, that if one did take it at face value, it would actually Reconcile all Four rapture views, and greatly Change the order of events of the Last days, that have been accepted as true, without question. This scripture is found in DAniel 12. Before we explore this scripture we need to understand the setting, and the reason why Daniel was given this scripture. Through the 11th, and most of the 12th Chapters of Daniel, He is given a "blow by blow" account of what will occur in the final seven year period. Two events that are described, are the stopping of the sacrifiecs, (DAniel 11:31) and the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:45-12:2). At the end of Daniel's prophecy, Daniel asks a Question.....The four rapture views have now been reconciled. Are you willing to "Set aside" all the doctirne that Keeps so many bickering and fighting? Can you accept the Pure Word of God, or is your doctrine more important?QUOTEDAniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall BE THE END OF THESE THINGS?DANIEL IS GIVEN AN ANSWER WITH A CONDITION. DAniel 12:9 "the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand: BUT THE. WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND. Daniel is then given a time frame between two events that he just described in this prophecy.QUOTEDaniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken awy, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.Now, Setting aside all Doctrine of "presumed truth", Isn't this passage of Scripture estabilshing a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT between the stopping of the Sacrifices, and the abomination of desolation? Lets for a moment, say God's word is true (pun intended), and there is a 3 1/2 year time split between these two events. What conclusions then could we draw? KNowing the sacrifices are stopped mid-week, that could only mean the abomination of desolation MUST OCCUR at the end of the 70th week, and it does not occur simultaineously, when the sacrifices are stopped. However, if this is true, this would also change the true relationship of the Day of the Lord to the 70th week. Mosat Doctrine today, try to "cram" the Day of the Lord into the second half of the 70th week. UNderstanding this "time Split between events, proves that thoery wrong. If the abomination of Desolation occurs at the end of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years AFTER the stopping of the sacrifices, that can only Mean, the TRUE day of the Lord Immediatly FOLLOWS THE 70TH WEEK, AND in no way can be a part of it!!Although the true 70th week is a time of Trouble, it is the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE. MATTHEW 24 BEARS OUT THAT THE "GREAT TRIBULATION' WILL FOLLOW the time of Jacobs trouble.QUOTEMatthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give Her light....So lets do some "re-labeling". Lets address the 70th week, for what it truly is, "the time of Jacob's trouble". The "great tribulation period", The time God's wrath and Judgement is poured out will immediately follow the 70th week. So, if we do this event re-alignment, what does this do to the four rapture theories? It reconciles them! Consider the following...Pre-tribulation Rature, is this true? Yes it is. The pre-trib views foundation is based on "we are not destined to face the wrath of God". But when does the wrath and Judgement of God truly fall? Immediately after the time of Jacob's trouble, or the 70th week. It is "pre-trib" but it is Only Pre "great trib," not pre 70th week. Mid tribulation rapture. Is this true? Partly! It is true the "harvest" does occur very close to the abomination of desolation. Most have concluded that it was "mid-week" but Daniel 12:11 reveals a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT, and places the event, at the end of the 70th week, befeore the "great tribulation period."POst trib, Is this true? Yes it is, for the harvest must occur at the end of the age, at the end of the 70th week. The end of the 70th week is also the end of the 42 onth reign of the false Messiah.Pre-wrath Is this true? Yes it is. The Day of the Lord cannot begin untill the following Happens. The harvest must occur. The Lord promised his people 70 full weeks of years, not 69 1/2. For the Lord to keep His promise, HE CANNOT POUR OUT HIS WRATH, untill the end of the 70th week. [indent]
The word of God is indeed pure Josh.
But what you have done is given your understanding of what the scripture is saying which may have more or less the same merit as the others who have their scriptures, and myself included. I do appreciate your appeal to unity however.
It says it best in Job "what doth arguing reprove?"
Everyone is where they are at in Jesus because that is where they really want to be.
Everyone has a level of understanding to which they have attained because that is as far as they can reach right now.
I personally use to follow the Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey, TBN version of the "rapture" and tribulation. I have since then come to an understanding which I believe better fits what the whole of the scripture and prophecy speaks of as the "end times" or "last days". I could be deluded....so can everyone else here as well.
I personally think that the most ignored, overlooked, and twisted chapter is Matthew 24's perfect chronological ordering of events right from the mouth of the bridgroom himself.
I personally, have since abandoned the "pre-trib" and "7 year trib" teachings which have been purported by men who also however nice and sincere they were, however educated and annointed they may have appeared, were also men who could be wrong or decieved or even be-witched as any man in this forum, myself included.
If a teaching or doctrine is heretical or errorenous then what reconciling can be done?
Can light have fellowship with darkness? Can the truth be reconciled to a lie?
Every man should live according to his convictions and then be man enough when the truth comes to embrace it. Pride be damned! But only the true Holy Spirit can open any man's eyes. As for the rest of what our minds can muster.... How futile is that?
QUOTE
For instance, Daniel 11 uses terms as "the king of the south, and the King of the north". In the 1000 year reign, there will only be one King, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
This needs a correction
This after the heaven and the new earth are created.
Revelation - Chapter 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
There are the kings of the earth.
Revelation 21:24
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
I thinks these kings were always there as kings of the nations.
In Jesus Precious Name
Bb
QUOTE (raysondawn @ Sep 19 2008, 07:03 PM)
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Sep 19 2008, 04:12 PM)
No matter what perspective of the Rapture one may embrace, Whether pre, mid, post, or pre wrath, each seems to have legitamate scripture to back up ones belief. But how could this be? Do we serve a God of Confusion? I don't think So!
[/indent] Consider the following Possability. All views of the Rapture are predicated on when Certian events occur. We need to revisit these events. Have you ever considered the possability, we may have gotten the order of events mixed up? If we did, seeing the "rapture" is established by other events, wouldn't this bring us to a false conclusion? I think it would!! Before we explore each "rapture theory", we need to go back to the "foundation" of events, that one has used to build a legitamate defense to each rapture view. There is one passage of Scripture that seems to be constantly overlooked when dealing with end time events. The reason this passage is overlooked, that if one did take it at face value, it would actually Reconcile all Four rapture views, and greatly Change the order of events of the Last days, that have been accepted as true, without question. This scripture is found in DAniel 12. Before we explore this scripture we need to understand the setting, and the reason why Daniel was given this scripture. Through the 11th, and most of the 12th Chapters of Daniel, He is given a "blow by blow" account of what will occur in the final seven year period. Two events that are described, are the stopping of the sacrifiecs, (DAniel 11:31) and the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:45-12:2). At the end of Daniel's prophecy, Daniel asks a Question.....QUOTEDAniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall BE THE END OF THESE THINGS?DANIEL IS GIVEN AN ANSWER WITH A CONDITION. DAniel 12:9 "the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand: BUT THE. WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND. Daniel is then given a time frame between two events that he just described in this prophecy.QUOTEDaniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken awy, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.Now, Setting aside all Doctrine of "presumed truth", Isn't this passage of Scripture estabilshing a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT between the stopping of the Sacrifices, and the abomination of desolation? Lets for a moment, say God's word is true (pun intended), and there is a 3 1/2 year time split between these two events. What conclusions then could we draw? KNowing the sacrifices are stopped mid-week, that could only mean the abomination of desolation MUST OCCUR at the end of the 70th week, and it does not occur simultaineously, when the sacrifices are stopped. However, if this is true, this would also change the true relationship of the Day of the Lord to the 70th week. Mosat Doctrine today, try to "cram" the Day of the Lord into the second half of the 70th week. UNderstanding this "time Split between events, proves that thoery wrong. If the abomination of Desolation occurs at the end of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years AFTER the stopping of the sacrifices, that can only Mean, the TRUE day of the Lord Immediatly FOLLOWS THE 70TH WEEK, AND in no way can be a part of it!!Although the true 70th week is a time of Trouble, it is the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE. MATTHEW 24 BEARS OUT THAT THE "GREAT TRIBULATION' WILL FOLLOW the time of Jacobs trouble.QUOTEMatthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give Her light....So lets do some "re-labeling". Lets address the 70th week, for what it truly is, "the time of Jacob's trouble". The "great tribulation period", The time God's wrath and Judgement is poured out will immediately follow the 70th week. So, if we do this event re-alignment, what does this do to the four rapture theories? It reconciles them! Consider the following...Pre-tribulation Rature, is this true? Yes it is. The pre-trib views foundation is based on "we are not destined to face the wrath of God". But when does the wrath and Judgement of God truly fall? Immediately after the time of Jacob's trouble, or the 70th week. It is "pre-trib" but it is Only Pre "great trib," not pre 70th week. Mid tribulation rapture. Is this true? Partly! It is true the "harvest" does occur very close to the abomination of desolation. Most have concluded that it was "mid-week" but Daniel 12:11 reveals a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT, and places the event, at the end of the 70th week, befeore the "great tribulation period."POst trib, Is this true? Yes it is, for the harvest must occur at the end of the age, at the end of the 70th week. The end of the 70th week is also the end of the 42 onth reign of the false Messiah.Pre-wrath Is this true? Yes it is. The Day of the Lord cannot begin untill the following Happens. The harvest must occur. The Lord promised his people 70 full weeks of years, not 69 1/2. For the Lord to keep His promise, HE CANNOT POUR OUT HIS WRATH, untill the end of the 70th week. The four rapture views have now been reconciled. Are you willing to "Set aside" all the doctirne that Keeps so many bickering and fighting? Can you accept the Pure Word of God, or is your doctrine more important?
The word of God is indeed pure Josh.
But what you have done is given your understanding of what the scripture is saying which may have more or less the same merit as the others who have their scriptures, and myself included. I do appreciate your appeal to unity however.
It says it best in Job "what doth arguing reprove?"
Everyone is where they are at in Jesus because that is where they really want to be.
Everyone has a level of understanding to which they have attained because that is as far as they can reach right now.
I personally use to follow the Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey, TBN version of the "rapture" and tribulation. I have since then come to an understanding which I believe better fits what the whole of the scripture and prophecy speaks of as the "end times" or "last days". I could be deluded....so can everyone else here as well.
I personally think that the most ignored, overlooked, and twisted chapter is Matthew 24's perfect chronological ordering of events right from the mouth of the bridgroom himself.
I personally, have since abandoned the "pre-trib" and "7 year trib" teachings which have been purported by men who also however nice and sincere they were, however educated and annointed they may have appeared, were also men who could be wrong or decieved or even be-witched as any man in this forum, myself included.
If a teaching or doctrine is heretical or errorenous then what reconciling can be done?
Can light have fellowship with darkness? Can the truth be reconciled to a lie?
Every man should live according to his convictions and then be man enough when the truth comes to embrace it. Pride be damned! But only the true Holy Spirit can open any man's eyes. As for the rest of what our minds can muster.... How futile is that?
I appreciate How you have approached my post. I do understand the Spirit you have in your response. I also understand that there are some deep understanings of the Lord's Word, that only the Holy Spirit can convict, and convince. I, too know, that those that may embrace a certian point of view concerning the end times are Just as convinced and convicted of it being truth, as I am, to what the Holy Spirit showed me.This however, doesn't release me from doing what the Holy Spirit has directed me to do. You are correct, that there is a much deeper meaning to the Matthew 24 olivet discoarse. It is very simple to understand, but to do so, one must have a firm foundation to begin with. Being able to use the subject of being able to reconcile the rapture views, by re-aligning events of the end time, establishes a new timeline, one which is clearly seen in Matthew 24. I have a much broader conclusion beyond this one subject, that one cannot see, unless this re-alignment of events is first realized. I use what one calls the "rapture" (actually the harvest), and what one currently understands about the end time (IE, seven year trib.) as a common starting point, for one to understand. Once one sees the full picture,(and the re-alignment of events is only a small piece), One will truly understand and discern How deceptive our enemy will be in the end time. The Lord Doesn't want His bride decieved, and seduced into the arms of the false Messiah. If one is not made aware of this deception. this is what will occur. I have a number of other posts on here, I highly recommend you read through. This may help you understand my intentions, and, if one has eyes to see, will percieve what the Holy Spirit is trying to Say.Concerning your comment that "I am just dixcerning scripture to my own understanding," that I would have to humbly disagree with. WHen the Holy Spirit took me on this fantastic prophetical Journey through His word, I began as an Ardent Pre-trib rapture believer myself. What I had though, was an understanding that our Spirit must be open and teachable to the Holy Spirit. The closer we get to the time of the end, the more will be revealed.[indent]You state that if a teaching is Heretical, or erroneous, then what reconciling can be done? This is true, but to lead one to the truth, you have to start with what they think they currently understand. Is this reconciliation? no it isn't.
Is the "rapture"
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
QUOTE (HeIsFaithful @ Sep 19 2008, 04:40 PM)
I posted this under another topic, and I think it might have gotten passed over..
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
I think you are on to something with the stance you are taking. This is called humility. It can be the way to true revelation. If you ever read books about the history of eschatology, you will be informed that church history is literally chuck full of groups that thought they had the end times figured out- and were wrong. Sometimes they were dead wrong. Battles have been fought over these things. Countless lives have been plunged into misery and ruin from false teachings about the end. That is why Jesus started of his end times teaching with "Be careful that no one deceive you in any way for many will come in my name and claim that I am the messiah."
I have a few books about it that I would recommend. They definitely humbled me. We are no different than all these other people. The eschatological views most of us have are relatively new to church history. Whichever view is the most correct is one which has been most developed in modern history. The pre-trib rapture teaching catapulted the end times to the forefront of people's minds in the 1830s and ever since then. Attempting to explain the end times has led to numerous cults like the JWs and Mormons. But there have been numerous other less known cults that have mislead multitudes to futility and sometimes death.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 21 2008, 07:57 AM)
Is the "rapture"
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
I don't Have time right now to give you a detailed answer, but I will in a few hours. Have some errands to run. I will say, the "harvest" does occur, ant the end of the 42 month reign of the FAlse Messiah. The restrainer being removed will reveal his true Identity. We will be here through the entire 70th week, but "harvested" prior to the wrath of God being poured out. The true 70th week of Daniel consists of 3 1/2 years of "Birthpains", wars and rumors of wars, with them climaxing in the Midst of the week, at the climax of the Ezeliel 38 war. the 42 month reign of the False Messiah follows. The World will think they Just experienced Armageddon, thus they accept the False Messiah, as the True. The first order of Business antichrist will have, is to hunt down and exterminate anyone who knows who he truly is. Jesus said "in an hour that you think not, the Son of Man cometh". Absolutely no one would be looking for the Lord to return, If they thought He was already Here!
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 21 2008, 07:57 AM)
Is the "rapture"
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
Well, obviously after.
That is, unless you write a whole book of convoluted teaching attempting to explain the plain sense of scripture away.
QUOTE (Eli @ Sep 21 2008, 08:21 PM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 21 2008, 07:57 AM)
Is the "rapture"
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
Well, obviously after.
That is, unless you write a whole book of convoluted teaching attempting to explain the plain sense of scripture away.
Bingo ! we have a winner !
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 21 2008, 08:57 AM)
Is the "rapture"
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
One must overlook, and turn a blind eye to many scriptures to establish a doctrine other than a Post 70th week, pre-wrath persepective. Here are a just a few.
QUOTE
Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DAREKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken: THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF THE HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.
THIS IS THE HARVESTQUOTE
rEV.14:15 AND ANOTHER ANGEL CAME OUT OF THE TEMPLE, CRYING WITH A LOUD VOICE TO HIM THAT SAT ON THE CLOUD, THRUST IN THY SICKLE, AND REAP: FOR THE TIME IS COME FOR THEE TO REAP; FOR THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE
And when does the harvest occur?QUOTE
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world: the good seed are the children of the kingdom: but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed then is the devil; THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD; AND THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
[/indent] NOTICE IT STATES THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE AGE, not Seven years before the end of the age![indent]There are numerous events that will climax at the end of the age. They are as follows.
- 1. It is the end of the 70th week. God promised 70 weeks of years to his children, not 69 1/2
- 2. It is the end of the 42 month reign of the false MESSIAH.
- 3. It is the end of the Church age
- 4. IT IS when the last trump is sounded.
- 5. The restrainer is removed
- 6. The real identity of the false MEssiah is made known to alll
- 7. The abomination of desolation occurs at the end of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years after the sacrifices are stopped (daniel 12:11)
- 8. The Lord takes authority back from the Church
- 9. The harvest (rapture) occurs
- 10. The world is now prepared to face the vials of the wrath of God!
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Sep 24 2008, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 21 2008, 08:57 AM)
Is the "rapture"
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
BEFORE or AFTER
the "saints" are put to the test
during the reign of the final "beast"s. ?
[bearing in mind the the final "beast" "wages war on the saints"]
One must overlook, and turn a blind eye to many scriptures to establish a doctrine other than a Post 70th week, pre-wrath persepective. Here are a just a few.
QUOTE
Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DAREKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken: THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF THE HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.
THIS IS THE HARVESTQUOTE
rEV.14:15 AND ANOTHER ANGEL CAME OUT OF THE TEMPLE, CRYING WITH A LOUD VOICE TO HIM THAT SAT ON THE CLOUD, THRUST IN THY SICKLE, AND REAP: FOR THE TIME IS COME FOR THEE TO REAP; FOR THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE
And when does the harvest occur?QUOTE
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world: the good seed are the children of the kingdom: but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed then is the devil; THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD; AND THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
[/indent] NOTICE IT STATES THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE AGE, not Seven years before the end of the age![indent]There are numerous events that will climax at the end of the age. They are as follows.
- 1. It is the end of the 70th week. God promised 70 weeks of years to his children, not 69 1/2
- 2. It is the end of the 42 month reign of the false MESSIAH.
- 3. It is the end of the Church age
- 4. IT IS when the last trump is sounded.
- 5. The restrainer is removed
- 6. The real identity of the false MEssiah is made known to alll
- 7. The abomination of desolation occurs at the end of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years after the sacrifices are stopped (daniel 12:11)
- 8. The Lord takes authority back from the Church
- 9. The harvest (rapture) occurs
- 10. The world is now prepared to face the vials of the wrath of God!
Regarding Bible end time events,
what should we expect next ?
I've learned through the years that if two people argue, usually neither of them is right. Neither with their attitudes, nor with their facts.
I would encourage all of you to dig deeper and push beyond the veil.
I would encourage all of you to dig deeper and push beyond the veil.
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Sep 19 2008, 05:55 PM)
QUOTE (HeIsFaithful @ Sep 19 2008, 05:40 PM)
I posted this under another topic, and I think it might have gotten passed over..
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
-or- maybe it deserves an answer.. maybe it doesn't..
please know, it is humbly asked..
this is just a quick thought that I'd like to throw out there..
We all know there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ during the millenium.. but we (hmmm... at least I,) never seem to hear or see (read) that much is known about those 1,000 years.. just that we'll rule and reign with Him.. and then Satan will be loosed again, right?
I often wonder how much of the scripture we apply to the last 7 years.. that maybe? should be being applied to events that take place during that millenium..
Could it be that the confusions (or in some peoples' minds - they are not confused, but sure that it will happen this way, or that way) .. but ?? maybe? some of the things that are perported (? sp) to happen during the tribulation/great tribulation .. should actually be put into the puzzle piece of what will happen during the 1,000 year reign, - or - the time of the end? age? when satan is loosed from the chains in which he will be held?
I am honestly, not knocking what is being posted here.. pretrib.. post trib.. whatever.. I am asking in sincerity..
I have this lingering question/thought..
even John the Baptist while at the time appointed, he knew ((Jn 1:29-34 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world...etc) - because the Holy Spirit revealed it to him at that time ??
and we know that he was specifically set aside to be used of God.. one would think that he had studied scripture, and had it all figured out, but even he questioned if Jesus was the one that we should look for..
Matt 11: 2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
Could it be? that we are mixing things from one part of the timetable with other parts? and not rightly dividing it?
As I said, it's just an honest question.. not a pointing of the finger of ones' stance
I too, Have often wondered if maybe certian events prophesied to occur will happen in the millineul reign of Christ. The word of God is the Word of God and it shall never pass away!! I guess we can almost consider it the "constitution" to the new Kingdom as Christ reigns. [indent][/indent]However, concering events prophesied to occur in Daniel, it is quite apparent, that we are dealing in an age Prior to the 1000 year reign. For instance, Daniel 11 uses terms as "the king of the south, and the King of the north". In the 1000 year reign, there will only be one King, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
how is it, that "we" (nothing personal in the "we") think we have it (the Lord's timetable and specifics, so completely figured out?
YOU ONLY NEED TO SCRIPTURE TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION,,,,HERES ONE ::::
Daniel 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
The next verse is your answer
In "BIBLE STUDIES"/"BIBLE TYPES AND PATTERNS"/"who is "Mystery Babylon"
a difference of opinion has emerged.
Has the coming of Jesus in power as per Rev 19 already happened,
OR is this event to be expected in the future ?
Is Satan currently locked up as per Rev 20,
OR will Satan be locked up in the future?
Has the 1000 year reign of Christ as per Rev 20 already commenced,
OR will it occur in the future?
I earnestly solicit Christian input.
a difference of opinion has emerged.
Has the coming of Jesus in power as per Rev 19 already happened,
OR is this event to be expected in the future ?
Is Satan currently locked up as per Rev 20,
OR will Satan be locked up in the future?
Has the 1000 year reign of Christ as per Rev 20 already commenced,
OR will it occur in the future?
I earnestly solicit Christian input.
QUOTE (raysondawn @ Sep 19 2008, 07:03 PM)
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Sep 19 2008, 04:12 PM)
No matter what perspective of the Rapture one may embrace, Whether pre, mid, post, or pre wrath, each seems to have legitamate scripture to back up ones belief. But how could this be? Do we serve a God of Confusion? I don't think So!
[/indent] Consider the following Possability. All views of the Rapture are predicated on when Certian events occur. We need to revisit these events. Have you ever considered the possability, we may have gotten the order of events mixed up? If we did, seeing the "rapture" is established by other events, wouldn't this bring us to a false conclusion? I think it would!! Before we explore each "rapture theory", we need to go back to the "foundation" of events, that one has used to build a legitamate defense to each rapture view. There is one passage of Scripture that seems to be constantly overlooked when dealing with end time events. The reason this passage is overlooked, that if one did take it at face value, it would actually Reconcile all Four rapture views, and greatly Change the order of events of the Last days, that have been accepted as true, without question. This scripture is found in DAniel 12. Before we explore this scripture we need to understand the setting, and the reason why Daniel was given this scripture. Through the 11th, and most of the 12th Chapters of Daniel, He is given a "blow by blow" account of what will occur in the final seven year period. Two events that are described, are the stopping of the sacrifiecs, (DAniel 11:31) and the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:45-12:2). At the end of Daniel's prophecy, Daniel asks a Question.....QUOTEDAniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall BE THE END OF THESE THINGS?DANIEL IS GIVEN AN ANSWER WITH A CONDITION. DAniel 12:9 "the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand: BUT THE. WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND. Daniel is then given a time frame between two events that he just described in this prophecy.QUOTEDaniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken awy, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.Now, Setting aside all Doctrine of "presumed truth", Isn't this passage of Scripture estabilshing a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT between the stopping of the Sacrifices, and the abomination of desolation? Lets for a moment, say God's word is true (pun intended), and there is a 3 1/2 year time split between these two events. What conclusions then could we draw? KNowing the sacrifices are stopped mid-week, that could only mean the abomination of desolation MUST OCCUR at the end of the 70th week, and it does not occur simultaineously, when the sacrifices are stopped. However, if this is true, this would also change the true relationship of the Day of the Lord to the 70th week. Mosat Doctrine today, try to "cram" the Day of the Lord into the second half of the 70th week. UNderstanding this "time Split between events, proves that thoery wrong. If the abomination of Desolation occurs at the end of the 70th week, 3 1/2 years AFTER the stopping of the sacrifices, that can only Mean, the TRUE day of the Lord Immediatly FOLLOWS THE 70TH WEEK, AND in no way can be a part of it!!Although the true 70th week is a time of Trouble, it is the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE. MATTHEW 24 BEARS OUT THAT THE "GREAT TRIBULATION' WILL FOLLOW the time of Jacobs trouble.QUOTEMatthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give Her light....So lets do some "re-labeling". Lets address the 70th week, for what it truly is, "the time of Jacob's trouble". The "great tribulation period", The time God's wrath and Judgement is poured out will immediately follow the 70th week. So, if we do this event re-alignment, what does this do to the four rapture theories? It reconciles them! Consider the following...Pre-tribulation Rature, is this true? Yes it is. The pre-trib views foundation is based on "we are not destined to face the wrath of God". But when does the wrath and Judgement of God truly fall? Immediately after the time of Jacob's trouble, or the 70th week. It is "pre-trib" but it is Only Pre "great trib," not pre 70th week. Mid tribulation rapture. Is this true? Partly! It is true the "harvest" does occur very close to the abomination of desolation. Most have concluded that it was "mid-week" but Daniel 12:11 reveals a 3 1/2 year time SPLIT, and places the event, at the end of the 70th week, befeore the "great tribulation period."POst trib, Is this true? Yes it is, for the harvest must occur at the end of the age, at the end of the 70th week. The end of the 70th week is also the end of the 42 onth reign of the false Messiah.Pre-wrath Is this true? Yes it is. The Day of the Lord cannot begin untill the following Happens. The harvest must occur. The Lord promised his people 70 full weeks of years, not 69 1/2. For the Lord to keep His promise, HE CANNOT POUR OUT HIS WRATH, untill the end of the 70th week. The four rapture views have now been reconciled. Are you willing to "Set aside" all the doctirne that Keeps so many bickering and fighting? Can you accept the Pure Word of God, or is your doctrine more important?
The word of God is indeed pure Josh.
But what you have done is given your understanding of what the scripture is saying which may have more or less the same merit as the others who have their scriptures, and myself included. I do appreciate your appeal to unity however.
It says it best in Job "what doth arguing reprove?"
Everyone is where they are at in Jesus because that is where they really want to be.
Everyone has a level of understanding to which they have attained because that is as far as they can reach right now.
I personally use to follow the Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey, TBN version of the "rapture" and tribulation. I have since then come to an understanding which I believe better fits what the whole of the scripture and prophecy speaks of as the "end times" or "last days". I could be deluded....so can everyone else here as well.
I personally think that the most ignored, overlooked, and twisted chapter is Matthew 24's perfect chronological ordering of events right from the mouth of the bridgroom himself.
I personally, have since abandoned the "pre-trib" and "7 year trib" teachings which have been purported by men who also however nice and sincere they were, however educated and annointed they may have appeared, were also men who could be wrong or decieved or even be-witched as any man in this forum, myself included.
If a teaching or doctrine is heretical or errorenous then what reconciling can be done?
Can light have fellowship with darkness? Can the truth be reconciled to a lie?
Every man should live according to his convictions and then be man enough when the truth comes to embrace it. Pride be damned! But only the true Holy Spirit can open any man's eyes. As for the rest of what our minds can muster.... How futile is that?
It is very simple to state one is "guilty" of applying ones own understanding to scripture to somehow, disqualify what is being shared. I have seen this done over and over again.I also know one would have a motive to do this, if they held onto a belief that was contrary. My intent here is to provide scripture, that actually reconciles all the views, without comprimising each view!!! I think this was done!!! If we can get past this "bickering", then maybe we can focus on the Battleplan of our adversary, and expose it to others!!![indent] I do agree that Matthrew 24, and the chronological order of events laid out in it, has a much deeper insight into the Last days, then most think.
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