Just a few observations of this group of Servants:

[/indent]Who truly is this group of People? It sounds like the Lord has a very Specific Job for them to do. We later see that those "beings" let out of the bottomless pit. have no power over these 144,000.

Why have we concluded that the Church must be removed for this group of People to be set aside to do a specific Job For the Lord? Couldn't these 144,000 Just as easily do what the Lord wants, with the church present? To assume that the Church MUST be removed for these 144,000 to go forth, is mere speculation.

For those who hold to a "concurrent" perspective of events in revelation, consider the Following. John States in Vs.1 "after THESE THINGS", I SAW... what does that tell us? events must be consecutive. It was told that the four ANGELS couldn't go forth untill the servants were sealed. This isn't referring to the four horseman, but to the four angels that have first four trumpets. They are told not to Hurt the earth, sea, or trees. This is exactly what the first four trumpets do! They were holding back the "four winds of the earth". Trumpets don't sound with out wind!!

Up to this point in time, we have witnessed an event in the sixth seal, that will be accepted as the Day of the Lord, but it isn't. Before the Lord returns, the vials of the wrath of God are poured out. Before Satan is cast out of Heaven in the fifth trumpet, we witness the same type of Destruction, brought on by the first four trumpets, that is eerily close to the destruction the vials bring on. The only difference is the magnatude of Destruction. (1/3 in the trumpets, all in the vials). This isn't a foreshadowing, this isn't a coincidence. Consider the heart and Mind of Mankind.. Don't you see how easy it will be to accept the first four trumpets, which occur BEFORE THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, As the vials of God, BEFORE THE RETURN OF THE REAL? [indent]

THE SEALS, AND FIRST SIX TRUMPETS ARE THE "BIRTHPAINS" JESUS TALKED ABOUT, That leads to the 42 month reign of the false messiah. I believe these 144,000 are marked to reveal to the world, the true identity of the false Messiah! We know they are present during the 42 month reign of the false messiah, and we also witness them with the Lord in Rev. 14:3 Now here is something to dwell on. Since when is taking a wife a defilement? This isn't referring to their Marital status, but their SPIRITUAL STATUS! They haven't let the doctrines and tradition of Man, which makes the word of God No effect, defile their relationship with the Lord Jesus!

One must understand that the 144,000 are national Israelites who will take the gospel to Israel and to the nations during the tribulation period. The Lord will personally direct and protect them .... they will follow Him where ever He goes. They will be mortals and will need protection by sealing. The first seal is a symbolic preview of this activity that will begin and continue during the entire tribulation period. The reference to the "defilement" is a further indication of the identity of these 144,000 Israelite apostles. They will be the first converts to the Lord at the beginning of the tribulation period and they will not be defiled by women as their ancestory was in the ancient past. The primary example was Solomon who was inticed by women (his many wives) of foreign origin which led him into idolatry and the worship of foreign gods.

I would also suggest to you that the Lord is "God" and will be carrying out His wrath and tribulation against human intransigence and unbelief. You speak as if Jesus Christ is going to be off some where and waiting for the tribulation period to transpire ..... and then become involved at the end of it. Believe that He is the one who is going to bring it Himself. He will bring it, control it, and finish it Himself. Your thinking here has you moving off course in your rendering of Revelation's presentation. Also, the seals are "previews" of the conditions of the upcoming tribuation period, not the actual events. The scroll containing the events of the tribulation period will not open until all of the 7 seals are removed by the Lord. The actual events do not begin until chapter 8.

I believe the 144,000 are Jewish people who have come to believe in the Messiah once the tribulation starts.

No question about it. The scriptures confirm this truth that needs to be understood for the correct rendering of national Israel's specific place during the tribulation period. These 144,000 apostles will be mortal national Israelites who will serve the Lord's purposes during the period. He will not retract His offer of salvation to the unbelieving world that He will place under His judgment. A few will turn, repent, and believe. Most will not. Revelation 7 and 14 describe this unique company of Israelite preachers.

Stephen, you have once agaiin confirmed the point I was trying to make. They are not "defiled with woman" , which led Solomon into idolatry. Isn't this what the doctrines and traditions of Man do? doesn'r it make the Word of God no effect?

[/indent]You state "the events of the tribulation period will not open untill all of the seven seals are removed by the Lord." This is totally false!

QUOTE

Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened ONE OF THE SEALS, AND I heard as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, COME AND SEE!

THE WHITE HORSE RIDES AT THE OPENING OF THE FIRST SEAL! This occurs before the second seal is opened. When the forth seal is opened, the pale horse goes forth to kill over one forth of the earth, with the sword. How can anyone state that this is a preview of the trumpets, (where 1/3 of Mankind is killed) and the vials where if the Lord didn't return, no flesh would be saved, is beyond me!!! The seals and trumpets are the "birthpains" Jesus spoke of! But the end is not yet!!

I would really appreciate it, if you you didn't put "words in my mouth" and try to presume what I am thinking. Did I ever say "Jesus was going to be off somewhere, waithing for the tribulation to transpire"? He is the one opening the seals!!! You are a very presumptious individual, with the conclusions you draw about me, and your doctrine. And by the way, you are the one presuming what occurs in the birthpains and the 42 month reign of the false Messiah is part of God's wrath. It isn't. His wrath and Judgement isn't poured out untill after the 42 month reign of the False Messiah in CH.15:1

QUOTE

And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues: for IN THEM IS FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD

[indent]

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that what has occured Prior to the vials of the WRATH OF GOD, was not HIs wrath!

Hello Joshleet,

The Tribulaiton is slated to be the worst Christian persecution period in history. Obviously there will be Christians martyred and (as the Bible suggest) some that will be alive at Christ's advent. Being that the Bible labels the 144,000 as "redeemed" and standing with Christ on Mount Zion, is it not possible that they, the 144,000, are those (male) survivors?

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. .....3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The Bible does identify the survivors of the the great flood. And the Bible does identify the survivors of Sodom and Gomorrah. Is it not possible that the Bible would identify the survivors of this calamity which preceeds Christ's advent?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
http://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000

"I would really appreciate it, if you you didn't put "words in my mouth" and try to presume what I am thinking."


>You are way off course here

>I state exactly what my views are in my posts on a subject

>If they do not line up with others thinking that is just the way it is

>Nothing to do with your thinking

> And my view of the seals is totally different than yours

>So I cannot comply with your request

The 144,000 are national Israelites as the scriptures state. These are the first mortal converts [fruits] of the tribulation period as described. They will be redemed [saved] just like the believer is today. These are the first portion of the believing remnant of national Israel with whom the Lord will confirm the covenant of the 70 weeks of years presented in Daniel 9 by executing the 70th week .... the tribulation period. All 6 objectives of this covenant time frame stated in Daniel will be met for the believing portion of the nation. National Israel is in unbelief for the most part today, but the scriptures tell that this is going to change at the time of the end.

Stephen says:



There is a difference between them and us...God purposely blinded their eyes. He didn't purposely blind ours. They were blinded to preserve them for God's end time plan. In fact he combines the chastisement of a nation with the blessing of a nation. An ear mark of our Lord. I think the eye opening event will be amazing..I hope l get to see it.. (from the grandstands of course.)

Exactly. The church WILL NOT BE REMOVED. Everyone will be here during the tribulation....the deception of Satan.





Exactly! The time that is "accepted as the Day of the Lord, but it isn't" is THE TRIBULATION! However, the reign of the false messiah is no longer 42 months for Christ shortened that time:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Those that "reveal to the world the true identity of the false Messiah" aren't the 144,000 but are the elect of God. They are those that will be delivered for their testimony when the Holy Spirit will speak through them. That testimony is what seals the truth in the foreheads of the 144,000 and then.....the wrath on those that don't accept that truth.


However, there are two groups of the 144,000. The following was a topic I posted a few months ago when trying to understand if there was one or two groups.......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, which were REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.

I thought the "new song" was the Song Of Moses [Deuteronomy 32:1] which "Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended." [Deu.31:30] Upon reflection...how can that ancient song be the "new" song? It cannot. If it is a "new" song then it is with a new group and has a new theme

.


14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were REDEEMED from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

To me, being "virgins" in this context means not being polluted with the religious system coming in the end of days when Satan is here pretending to be Christ. "Redeemed" means to be purchased.....purchased with His blood!

We see that the 144,000, the redeemed virgins, are the only ones that can sing the New Song. Where else do we learn of the New Song?

Revelation 5:8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9. And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by Thy blood out of every KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE AND NATION;

10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

They, the four beasts and 24 elders, were singing the New Song and only the 144,000 redeemed virgins can do that so these must be part of that same group. We also know that God's elect, the manchild, will be "priests of God and reign on earth" so they too are in the group singing the New Song.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, and SHALL REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years.

So, that is one group of 144,000 but are they the same as.....

Revelation 7:3. Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the TREES, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The "sea" represent multitudes of people and "trees" also means people.

7:4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL

So we see that these 144,000 are....the tribes of the children of Israel. The other 144,000 mentioned are "redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE AND NATION."

Seeing that we know....there are two different groups of the 144,000.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The problem is...who is "them and us?" None of us think we are those that are blinded.

Us

Those who believe in God the Father a Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth and
in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord.
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Born of the virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate..
was crucified dead and buried and rose from the dead on the third day. He ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father Almighty from where he will come to judge the quick and the dead.

God commands us to Love him with all our hearts mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.
He also tells us that if we love him we will do what he says.

Them:

Those 144,000 whose eyes have been purposely closed by God for his end-times purposes. A curse and blessing of nations. Jacob. They are Jacobs... They can not know the truth until God himself opens there eyes which he has purposely sealed.

It's my personal opinion that if you think your one of the "special ones" you're not... because their eyes and ears are still sealed shut.

Those who conjure now in expectation will be cut off.

In fact many are prophesying their own demise right now in these last days...

You do bring up some very interesting Points. This is however, the first time I saw anyone theorize that there is TWO groups of 144,000. I am assuming you have drawn this conclusion because they are from the twleve tribes. I do believe that 12,000 of them are of the tribe of Juda (vs. 5 Jews), but not all of them are Jews as most have accepted. I think that Just because they are descendants of the twelve tribes, and Believers in Christ, doesn't neccessarily mean they are two seperate groups of People. They could Just as easily be the same group. One not understanding that all Jews are of the House of Israel, but the House Of Israel, is made up of a much larger group than Just those of Judah, can bring this confusion. The 144,000 are redeemed from Different "kindreds" (tribes), tongues and nations, but not all are Jews. They do however represent the ancient descendancy of the twelve tribes.[indent]I do agree that those that are "not defiled with women" is speaking of a Spiritual purity, being able to be kept from the hour of Temptation because they know the truth.

Excellent point! Just Having this discussion proves Someone is being misled!! I have been seeing a "line in the sand" being drawn between believers, and it is coming more and more clearer, as to who will and will not be decieved. It is sort of Ironic, that those who truly are being decieved, are those who scream the loudest, the other is!! [indent][/indent]There most certianly is a spiritual blindness out there! This blindness however, is accepted and recieved by many, due to thier unwillingness to be able to set aside their "set in stone" doctrine about the end time. This is very dangerous!! We all must have an open and teachable Spirit, specially when it comes to end time prophecy...Why? Simple.. It was told, the closer we get to the end, the more we will understand!!

Who's whooo?

Your right. There are two different groups. The 144,000 (12,00 from each tribe) who's eyes have been opened

and

the imposter wanna bee's....whoo are now conjuring their position for the end time fame game.

If you think you are one of them you can not possibly be for their eyes are still sealed.

Of the twelve tribes the Jews, house of Judah (Judah and Benjamin), are mentioned along with the other tribes....Christians. Together they are Israel but separately they are the house of Judah and the house of Israel. They are one group of 144,000. The other group cannot be them because they are of, "every kindred, tongue, people and nation." They are not of Israel but are Gentile.

Where then, did the house of Israel come from? We know they didn't come out of Judah. You sorta made a distinction without a difference. REad Hosea 1:10-11. This explains who is being described here.

The "house of Israel" are the ten northern tribes of the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel. The "house of Judah" are two of the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel. Only the "house of Judah" are properly termed Jews / Ju-dah. So, no they didn't come out of Judah or they would be Jews but they are the brother tribes to Judah. They are those God scattered and are referred to as the "lost sheep of the house of Israel." Not the "nation" of Israel but the "house of Israel." They are Christians.

14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were REDEEMED from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Let's look at the agricultural aspect of this.

Jesus was the firstfruit of the Barley harvest ( Jesus rose on the feast of the firstfruits of spring).

The 120 at Pentacost are the firstfruits of the wheat harvest....

The 144 000 are the firstfruits of the Ingathering (Tabernacles). (After 2 days He will revive us, and on the 3rd day raise us).

And the Lord shall come with a loud shout and with the voice of the Archangel with the sound of the trumpet (the last trump), and those who died in Christ will rise first (the first resurrection.)

They also make up the wall of New Jerusalem (144 cubits) to be rebuilt on earth as it is in heaven.

I believe the 144 000 are literally the resurrected saints on earth who will go one to rule with Christ in Heaven. Heaven on earth.

Once this occurs it will like Pentacost where we changed dispensation. But this time after the first resurrection anyone who is alive will caught up with them in the clouds (cloud is spirit).

Meaning our souls will never sleep again. Amen

Hey WW:

I was thinking along those exact lines. The Lord hid is 144,000, so that they would be safe. The other 10 tribes were scattered so that they would not be found. Jeremiah went to Ireland. There are others scattered to and fro. The Lord would have never made it so easy for these precious young men and possibly women to be found. I believe the few that remaon are precious and pure in his sight. Yes, these young men and women are Christians. They were born to be here for this exact moment in time. They are what has been written about for thousands of years. Their time is near. Very near. Be praying for these young souls!!!

144,000 Period. No where in scripture does it say there are 288,000. Let's get a grip here and not add someting to scripture that doesn't add up..

Not all hoo cry Lord Lord will be saved...no matter how many signs and wonders they wield in the final hours. Those same hoots are those that accuse the real church today.

Some will be given sunglasses to see the Son. Others will be wearing sunglasses but will be blind.
No offense meant to the literal blind..Many times they see better than most. This is only used to illustrate a point.

Hi Tierny,

Yes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel were scattered but I don't think it was just for our protection, "not to be found," but rather so we take His Word to the world. As you stated, we were born to be here...at this moment! Some of us will be used in various ways to bring other souls to Him:

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Yes....the time is very near.

Yikes!
I must be more clear in the future, I was never implying that there were 288,000. What I was saying was that of the 12 tribes, 10 tribes whereabouts are unknown. We know where the two tribes from the House of Judah are. The other 10 are scattered for their protection and to spread the good news of Jesus. If their identities and whereabouts where known, Satan would stop at nothing to get at them. Only the two witnesses are protected by the shield of Jesus. That is not to say, the 120.000 that are scattered are not protected by the Blood of Jesus, however, there are evil forces that would love to identify, and persecute these christians now. To stop them from their ultimate mission.

Rev 7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.