There has been some debate about the end time battle of Armageddon and the Ezekiel Invasion. This debate centers on whether or not the Ezekiel Invasion is the same prophetic vision found in Rev 19 (The final battle between the Lord God and Satan…Armageddon). In the Ezekiel Gog/Magog Invasion, Gog is killed and buried in the Valley of Hamongog along with his multitudes (armies, bands). In the end time battle of Armageddon, the Beast and false prophet are cast ALIVE into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
To those who believe that these prophetic visions represent the same War and that Gog is indeed the “one” (the man of sin, the false messiah, the little horn, the beast) spoken of by the other prophets. How do you explain that in Ezekiel 39:11 Gog is killed & buried along with his multitudes (armies, bands) in the Valley of Hamongog and in the final Battle of Armageddon the man of sin/false messiah/the little horn/the beast is cast ALIVE with the false prophet into the lake of fire burning with brimstone? How can Gog be the “one” (the man of sin, the false messiah, the little horn, the beast) spoken of by the other prophets, if he is killed and buried after the Ezekiel Invasion? It clearly states in Rev 19 that the Beast and false prophet are cast ALIVE into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. How can this be? If Gog is indeed the “one” how can he be killed and buried in one vision but cast ALIVE into the lake of fire in the other vision? The only answer I can come up with is….Gog is not the one spoken of by the other prophets and the Ezekiel Gog/Magog War is not the same prophetic event as the end time battle of Armageddon.
Revelation 19- Armageddon
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Ezekiel 39-Gog/Magog Invasion
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
God's Blessings!!
Rob
Full Version: Is Gog The "one"?
Satan's rant against Israel and the Lord will ultimately fail. He always looses. It is his human little horn and followers who will be burried at Armageddon. The Lord will defeat Satan's (Gog's) obsession to replace the Lord by destroying his human agents. The Satan will be tossed into the abyss for 1,000 years so that he cannot deceive the nations during the Lord's millennial reign on the earth. He will be released again after and will cause another human rebellion. This behavior will lead to his direct destruction in the lake of fire forever.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 11 2008, 12:07 PM) 
Satan's rant against Israel and the Lord will ultimately fail. He always looses. It is his human little horn and followers who will be burried at Armageddon. The Lord will defeat Satan's (Gog's) obsession to replace the Lord by destroying his human agents. The Satan will be tossed into the abyss for 1,000 years so that he cannot deceive the nations during the Lord's millennial reign on the earth. He will be released again after and will cause another human rebellion. This behavior will lead to his direct destruction in the lake of fire forever.
If Gog is Satan as you suggest, how can Gog/Satan be killed and buried at the end of the Ezekiel War if Satan is to be released from the abyss at the end of the Lord's millenniel reign? Are there 2 Satan's? Ezekiel 39:11 clearly states that Gog and his multitude will be buried in the valley of Hamongog. Satan's ultimate demise comes after the Lord's millenniel reign, does it not? If Satan's human little horn (Beast/false messiah) is *buried* at Armageddon, who is this Beast and false prophet being cast *ALIVE* into the lake of fire burning with brimstone in Rev 19:20? Isnt Revelation 19:20 a pre-millenium/post-trib event? The last time i checked....you can't be dead/buried and alive at the same time.
God's Blessings!!
Rob
Hey Rob. Maybe ch's. 19 and 20 are two descriptions of the same thing
This is right after the two witnesses are killed and raised the 7th trumpet sounds:
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast; because thou hast taken thy great power, and didst reign.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.
So, here in this verse we have:
1.) The Wrath of God
2.) The Judgement of the Dead
3.) Christians/Saints/Prophets receive their rewards
4.) The destruction of those who destroy the earth
So, now, we have a problem, because, it says that the dead are judged before the Millenium
It also says that the saints (us) receive our rewards at this time, but, that can't happen until the Judgement Day which, is supposed to happen after The Millenium.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Oops. I mistakenly put chapter 21 there. It should be 19 and 20.
This is right after the two witnesses are killed and raised the 7th trumpet sounds:
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast; because thou hast taken thy great power, and didst reign.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.
So, here in this verse we have:
1.) The Wrath of God
2.) The Judgement of the Dead
3.) Christians/Saints/Prophets receive their rewards
4.) The destruction of those who destroy the earth
So, now, we have a problem, because, it says that the dead are judged before the Millenium
It also says that the saints (us) receive our rewards at this time, but, that can't happen until the Judgement Day which, is supposed to happen after The Millenium.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Oops. I mistakenly put chapter 21 there. It should be 19 and 20.
"If Gog is Satan as you suggest, how can Gog/Satan be killed and buried at the end of the Ezekiel War"
>You did not read what I said. It is not Gog/Satan who will be physically burried, but his entire human front involved in this rebellion against the Lord. Satan is addressed directly by the Lord and told that his ambition will be squashed.
>Satan/Gog will be "burried" .... defeated .... at Armageddon. His human followers will become bird food [their remains will be burried by Israel] and Satan will be tossed into the abyss for 1,000years. One must understand the difference between spiritual warfare in high places and the related human involvement on the earth. The dynamics of Ezekiel's vision are very comprehensive and far reaching.
>You did not read what I said. It is not Gog/Satan who will be physically burried, but his entire human front involved in this rebellion against the Lord. Satan is addressed directly by the Lord and told that his ambition will be squashed.
>Satan/Gog will be "burried" .... defeated .... at Armageddon. His human followers will become bird food [their remains will be burried by Israel] and Satan will be tossed into the abyss for 1,000years. One must understand the difference between spiritual warfare in high places and the related human involvement on the earth. The dynamics of Ezekiel's vision are very comprehensive and far reaching.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 11 2008, 01:21 PM)
"If Gog is Satan as you suggest, how can Gog/Satan be killed and buried at the end of the Ezekiel War"
>You did not read what I said. It is not Gog/Satan who will be physically burried, but his entire human front involved in this rebellion against the Lord. Satan is addressed directly by the Lord and told that his ambition will be squashed.
>Satan/Gog will be "burried" .... defeated .... at Armageddon. His human followers will become bird food [their remains will be burried by Israel] and Satan will be tossed into the abyss for 1,000years. One must understand the difference between spiritual warfare in high places and the related human involvement on the earth. The dynamics of Ezekiel's vision are very comprehensive and far reaching.
>You did not read what I said. It is not Gog/Satan who will be physically burried, but his entire human front involved in this rebellion against the Lord. Satan is addressed directly by the Lord and told that his ambition will be squashed.
>Satan/Gog will be "burried" .... defeated .... at Armageddon. His human followers will become bird food [their remains will be burried by Israel] and Satan will be tossed into the abyss for 1,000years. One must understand the difference between spiritual warfare in high places and the related human involvement on the earth. The dynamics of Ezekiel's vision are very comprehensive and far reaching.
I read what you said several times.
there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude
It clearly states that Gog and all his multitude will be buried in the valley of Hamongog.....but yet you state it is not Gog that will be pysically buried in valley of Hamongog..only his entire human front only. How can you say this, when it goes against what is written in scripture.
God's Blessing!!
Rob
You do not see the setting of Satan and the Lord in the vision related to this battle which is spiratual as well as earthly. The Lord is going to bury Satan as well, but not in the valley on the earth. You need to study Ezekiel 28 for understanding how Satan engages, intertwines, and controls a human king. Satan (Gog) will lose the game by the Lord's wasting of his human agents upon the earth. Only Satan (gog) can live to be released 1,000 years later as Revelation describes. Gog is not human.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 11 2008, 04:09 PM)
You do not see the setting of Satan and the Lord in the vision related to this battle which is spiratual as well as earthly. The Lord is going to bury Satan as well, but not in the valley on the earth. You need to study Ezekiel 28 for understanding how Satan engages, intertwines, and controls a human king. Satan (Gog) will lose the game by the Lord's wasting of his human agents upon the earth. Only Satan (gog) can live to be released 1,000 years later as Revelation describes. Gog is not human.
Why is it when someone has a different view then your own you always say...you need to study more...you lack understanding...you lack wisdom...or whatever. I'm here to tell you that i have studied Ezekiel and Revelation for many years (almost 20). I can read and i don't lack understanding. I consider myself to be a fairly wise man. You must consider yourself infallible, because it sure seems that way.
What part of the following verse do you not understand?
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
It cleary states above, that Gog will be buried along with his multitude/bands. Show me scripture that states *the Lord* will *bury* Satan (gog), but not in the valley on the earth. If you can show me scripture that states this...i would very much appreciate it.
God's Blessings!!!
Rob
Rob,
It is the understanding that you are having difficulty with. I would suggest that you find all related scripture regarding the battle between the Lord and Satan from Genesis to Revelation. There is much written. Lay it out before you and you will begin to see that Ezekiel's vision is a significant part of this picture. You must understand that Gog is not a human who gets killed at Armageddon and then returns to cause another rebellion of the nations 1,000 years later. This would be impossible. Since this is a fact and a biblical truth, your rendition of Gog is not compatible with what the scriptures tell. You have to have another explanation than the one you currently hold for congruency. Your view is traditional and it requires "Gog" to be a Russian who will attack Israel at the time of the end .... and not the little horn of Daniel's visions. This view is speculative, it is taken out of the overall context of the battle between the Lord and Satan, and it ignores the connection with Satan stated very clearly in 38:17. In fact you go to an extreme extent to say that Satan is not the "one" the Lord addresses in the vision. This approach is clearly a twist of the verse and is also an "out of context" application. My suggestion to you is to study further so that you can convey a more accurate interpretation of the subject to the readers.
It is the understanding that you are having difficulty with. I would suggest that you find all related scripture regarding the battle between the Lord and Satan from Genesis to Revelation. There is much written. Lay it out before you and you will begin to see that Ezekiel's vision is a significant part of this picture. You must understand that Gog is not a human who gets killed at Armageddon and then returns to cause another rebellion of the nations 1,000 years later. This would be impossible. Since this is a fact and a biblical truth, your rendition of Gog is not compatible with what the scriptures tell. You have to have another explanation than the one you currently hold for congruency. Your view is traditional and it requires "Gog" to be a Russian who will attack Israel at the time of the end .... and not the little horn of Daniel's visions. This view is speculative, it is taken out of the overall context of the battle between the Lord and Satan, and it ignores the connection with Satan stated very clearly in 38:17. In fact you go to an extreme extent to say that Satan is not the "one" the Lord addresses in the vision. This approach is clearly a twist of the verse and is also an "out of context" application. My suggestion to you is to study further so that you can convey a more accurate interpretation of the subject to the readers.
Everyone cast into the Lake of Fire is cast alive into it--spiritually quite alive, regardless of where this flesh I now inhabit is laid to rest. The standard process is for one to die, then comes the judgment.
I find no conflict between this event and any other portion of scripture.
In Christ,
Mike
I find no conflict between this event and any other portion of scripture.
In Christ,
Mike
EOT has scriptural support.
Stephen? Where is yours?
Stephen? Where is yours?
Invasion of Israel and Armageddon - Two separate battles.
What I am curious about is: Which will happen first -
The day the world is amazed by seeing the final "beast"
or
Russia [and allies] invasion of Israel
??
I fully expect our generation to see both of these events.
Sooner rather than later.
What I am curious about is: Which will happen first -
The day the world is amazed by seeing the final "beast"
or
Russia [and allies] invasion of Israel
??
I fully expect our generation to see both of these events.
Sooner rather than later.
The only places in the whole Bible that mention a battle of God and Magog is Ezekiel and Revelation.
Revelation says that it happens at the end of the millenium. "7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven [2] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
This is obviously the fulfillment of Ezekiel's Gog and Magog battle. The only scriptures on the subject are quite unambigious about this. The confusion lies with all the pre-trib teachers and theur writings. They glean from one another and from human creativity in their Gog and Magog teaching.
Revelation says that it happens at the end of the millenium. "7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven [2] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
This is obviously the fulfillment of Ezekiel's Gog and Magog battle. The only scriptures on the subject are quite unambigious about this. The confusion lies with all the pre-trib teachers and theur writings. They glean from one another and from human creativity in their Gog and Magog teaching.
Ezekiel's 38,39 vision includes the invasion of Israel and the later confrontation at the battle of Armageddon recorded in Revelation. The clear sequence of events is spelled out with the Lord's return to tread the winepress of Armageddon as recorded in chapter 19. Chapter 20 then explains that Satan will be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years so that he cannot deceive the mortal nations of the millennium. Then he will be released to cause another human rebellion at the end of the 1,000 year period. These two human rebellions against the Lord are not the same and they will be separated by 1,000 years as clearly sequenced by Revelation's account. Neither are the descriptions of the two wars the same. For example the battle of Armageddon will require a cleanup of the carnage by the birds of prey and by Israel in preparation for the Lord's millennial reign on the earth. The Lord's destruction of second human rebellion will be instantanious and by fire from the Lord. No birds, no bird food, and no clean up by Israel required.
Ez 38:22 With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him, and I will rain upon him and his hordes and the many peoples who are with him torrential rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur.
God sends fire from heaven upon Gog and Magog and then it says this only 5 verses later in Ez 39:4-6. "4 You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your hordes and the peoples who are with you. I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 You shall fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Lord God. 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who dwell securely in the coastlands, and they shall know that I am the Lord."
Fire and the birds and beast all devour Gog and Magog no matter which way you slice it. How can fire destroy what has been eaten? Why send animals AND fire?
How could people who have been killed, eaten and burned get back up and fight again a thousand years later?
God sends fire from heaven upon Gog and Magog and then it says this only 5 verses later in Ez 39:4-6. "4 You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your hordes and the peoples who are with you. I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 You shall fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Lord God. 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who dwell securely in the coastlands, and they shall know that I am the Lord."
Fire and the birds and beast all devour Gog and Magog no matter which way you slice it. How can fire destroy what has been eaten? Why send animals AND fire?
How could people who have been killed, eaten and burned get back up and fight again a thousand years later?
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 08:02 AM)
Invasion of Israel and Armageddon - Two separate battles.
What I am curious about is: Which will happen first -
The day the world is amazed by seeing the final "beast"
or
Russia [and allies] invasion of Israel
??
I fully expect our generation to see both of these events.
Sooner rather than later.
What I am curious about is: Which will happen first -
The day the world is amazed by seeing the final "beast"
or
Russia [and allies] invasion of Israel
??
I fully expect our generation to see both of these events.
Sooner rather than later.
Hi John,
Consider that both battles happen at the same time but in different locations.
God fights both to show the world...He is God and there will be no mistake. The battles are against all of Israel and only the house of Judah is in the nation of Israel...which wasn't a nation until 1948. So there will be one battle against them but what of the rest of Israel?
The "house of Israel" are ten tribes of Israel while the "house of Judah," are the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Together they are all of Israel but prophecy deals with them separately. So, if one battle is fought against the house of Judah in Judea...where is the other battle fought?
Where is the "house of Israel" today? Who has Russia always been against? Think of them as Esau and Jacob....for they are the types God gave us to understand the future.
I would suggest that you pay more attention to detail when studying these things. For example, those humans killed at Armageddon will not be the same as the rebelling populations at the end of the Lord's millennium. Impossible. It will be the mortal millennial inhabitants of the nations that will develop on the earth who will rebel in conjunction with Satan's release from the abyss after 1,000 years. Revelation's presentation is very clear regarding this time line. Only Satan with sufficient life span will be the same instigator. The Lord's fire (wrath) against the ancient land of Magog and surrounding costal areas describes the Middle East proper. This is the Armageddon war which will occur against Israel's enemies at the end of the tribulation period and just before the beginning of the Lord's following millennial reign on the earth.
This war will require a cleansing of the geographical area of the Middle East. The human rebellion at then end of the millennium is totally different one and the Lord will end it instantly with His wrath [fire) of destruction. This action will also disolve the present heavens and the present earth. He will then create new heavens and a new earth for eternity and the former will become non-existent. Revelation presents this exact time line .....19,20,and 21. Ezekiel and Zechariah present the details of the invasion of Israel and later battle of Armageddon. The next human rebellion after the 1,000 years is different and is only presented in Revelation.
Peter aludes to this when he states that the Day of the Lord will come as a "thief" in which the heavens and earth will disolve. His statement covers a very long period of time lapse in which many things will take place. The Lord will come unexpectedly to bring His tribulation and judgment of the present inhabitants of the earth. He will then rule the earth Himself from Jerusalem for 1,000 years. The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord, but the populations will be mortals who can choose whether to serve Him or not during the period. Ezekiel 40-48 has the picture of the Lord's temple and His requirements for those living during the millennium. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, and Zechariah have the period defined in their visions as well.
Satan will not be able to interact with the mortals of the millennium, but they will still be subject to the need of repentance and salvation just like today. The Lord will permit Satan to be released at the end of His millennial reign for a testing. Many humans influenced and led by Satan upon his release will rebel against the Lord and he will destroy all of them in the process of obliterating the heavens and the earth. Satan will also be destroyed forever. The spirits of all of the human dead who have and will refused to believe in Jesus Christ will then be judged and destroyed. Then eternity will begin and only believers will enter.
This war will require a cleansing of the geographical area of the Middle East. The human rebellion at then end of the millennium is totally different one and the Lord will end it instantly with His wrath [fire) of destruction. This action will also disolve the present heavens and the present earth. He will then create new heavens and a new earth for eternity and the former will become non-existent. Revelation presents this exact time line .....19,20,and 21. Ezekiel and Zechariah present the details of the invasion of Israel and later battle of Armageddon. The next human rebellion after the 1,000 years is different and is only presented in Revelation.
Peter aludes to this when he states that the Day of the Lord will come as a "thief" in which the heavens and earth will disolve. His statement covers a very long period of time lapse in which many things will take place. The Lord will come unexpectedly to bring His tribulation and judgment of the present inhabitants of the earth. He will then rule the earth Himself from Jerusalem for 1,000 years. The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord, but the populations will be mortals who can choose whether to serve Him or not during the period. Ezekiel 40-48 has the picture of the Lord's temple and His requirements for those living during the millennium. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, and Zechariah have the period defined in their visions as well.
Satan will not be able to interact with the mortals of the millennium, but they will still be subject to the need of repentance and salvation just like today. The Lord will permit Satan to be released at the end of His millennial reign for a testing. Many humans influenced and led by Satan upon his release will rebel against the Lord and he will destroy all of them in the process of obliterating the heavens and the earth. Satan will also be destroyed forever. The spirits of all of the human dead who have and will refused to believe in Jesus Christ will then be judged and destroyed. Then eternity will begin and only believers will enter.
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Sep 13 2008, 09:14 PM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 08:02 AM)
Invasion of Israel and Armageddon - Two separate battles.
What I am curious about is: Which will happen first -
The day the world is amazed by seeing the final "beast"
or Russia [and allies] invasion of Israel ??
I fully expect our generation to see both of these events.
Sooner rather than later.
Hi John, Consider that both battles happen at the same time but in different locations. God fights both to show the world...He is God and there will be no mistake. The battles are against all of Israel and only the house of Judah is in the nation of Israel...which wasn't a nation until 1948. So there will be one battle against them but what of the rest of Israel? The "house of Israel" are ten tribes of Israel while the "house of Judah," are the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Together they are all of Israel but prophecy deals with them separately. So, if one battle is fought against the house of Judah in Judea...where is the other battle fought? Where is the "house of Israel" today? Who has Russia always been against? Think of them as Esau and Jacob....for they are the types God gave us to understand the future.
The battle of Revelation 19 culminates with the return of Christ in power.
The battle of Ezekiel 38-39 does not culminate with return of Christ in power.
Ezekiel specifies invader comes from the "remote North" and the target is specificly Israel.
Rev 16&19 has no mention of "remote North" and Israel is not the target.
I'm confident both are "end time" events that do not occur simultaneously.
Ezekiel's battle must occur first.
I await to see whether Ezekiel battle occurs before or after public reappearance of the final "beast"
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 11:54 PM)
I'm confident both are "end time" events that do not occur simultaneously.
I agree.
Ezekiel's battle must occur first.
I agree
I await to see whether Ezekiel battle occurs before or after public reappearance of the final "beast"
IMHO it (Ezekiel battle) occurs before the public appearance of the beast.
I agree.
Ezekiel's battle must occur first.
I agree
I await to see whether Ezekiel battle occurs before or after public reappearance of the final "beast"
IMHO it (Ezekiel battle) occurs before the public appearance of the beast.
A summary from a pre-tribber...
1. Rapture/just before MBG destroyed (perhaps only a few hours or days before)
2. MBG destroyed/7 year Trib starts
3. Ezekiel Battle/sometime during the latter half of the 1st 42 months of tribulation/ends just before mid trib
4. Man of Sin rules over the world/mid trib
5. Two Witnesses revealed/mid trib
6. Armageddon/at the end of the 7 year trib
7. Beast and false prophet cast alive into the LOF
8. Satan cast into the abyss for 1000 years
7. The Lord's 1000 year rule over mankind
8. Satan freed from the abyss after a 1000 years to deceive man again/then detroyed by the Lord & cast into the LOF
God's Blessings!!
Rob
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 14 2008, 12:54 AM)
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Sep 13 2008, 09:14 PM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 08:02 AM)
Invasion of Israel and Armageddon - Two separate battles.
What I am curious about is: Which will happen first -
The day the world is amazed by seeing the final "beast"
or Russia [and allies] invasion of Israel ??
I fully expect our generation to see both of these events.
Sooner rather than later.
Hi John, Consider that both battles happen at the same time but in different locations. God fights both to show the world...He is God and there will be no mistake. The battles are against all of Israel and only the house of Judah is in the nation of Israel...which wasn't a nation until 1948. So there will be one battle against them but what of the rest of Israel? The "house of Israel" are ten tribes of Israel while the "house of Judah," are the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Together they are all of Israel but prophecy deals with them separately. So, if one battle is fought against the house of Judah in Judea...where is the other battle fought? Where is the "house of Israel" today? Who has Russia always been against? Think of them as Esau and Jacob....for they are the types God gave us to understand the future.
The battle of Revelation 19 culminates with the return of Christ in power.
The battle of Ezekiel 38-39 does not culminate with return of Christ in power.
Ezekiel specifies invader comes from the "remote North" and the target is specificly Israel.
Rev 16&19 has no mention of "remote North" and Israel is not the target.
I'm confident both are "end time" events that do not occur simultaneously.
Ezekiel's battle must occur first.
I await to see whether Ezekiel battle occurs before or after public reappearance of the final "beast"
The Ezekiel Battle is the "springboard" the False messiah will use to be accepted as God. This war is the climactic Battle of the "birthpains" Jesus spoke of that will lead to His reign. Jesus also warned us, "but the end is not yet" Jesus KNew many would be decieved into believing that this IS the final battle.
[/indent] At the climax of the Ezekiel war, we see "all the men on the face of the earth shall Shake at his presence." Ez. 38:20. Although the Lord DOES reveal Himself here at the time of this battle, it isn't His return. We witness the very same event in Rev. 6:6-12, the sixth seal. "All the men hid themselves in the dens and the rocks from the face of Him that Sitteth on the throne." Rev 6:15-17. This is the same revealing we have Just witnessed in Ezekiel. This is once again, an event the Lord has revealed Himself, but isn't returning. THEY see him sitting on the throne. When Jesus returns, He's on a horse. THEY then conclude, Because they see him on the throne, at the same time this battle is climaxing in ISrael......Absolutely no one would be Looking for the Messiah to return, if they thought He was already Here!QUOTERev. 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand."It is after this event, the false Messiah will reign for 42 months. This "revealing" the Lord does, is the "Strong delusion" he said He would bring on those that "love not the truth". To the believer who knows what this event is, it is the "sign" of His coming, but not His actual return at this time. The Decieved Jews and Christians who have been being persecuted in the birthpains, will witness this and many will Give Credit to the false Messiah, thinking it was him they saw "sitting on the throne" How SAD! [indent]Jesus stated that "in an hour that ye "think not" the son of man cometh."
It is important for the reader to notice the revolving structure of visionary prophecy as the vision unfolds. The verses are not always sequential, but include role backs and repeats. Neither do the individual visions always include on-going time lapse, but only present highlights with beginnings and endings which include some but not all events between them. Other visions must be added in order to get the full scope:
Ezekiel records the initial invasion of Israel by the little horn king of the north just before midweek. He then records the resulting battle of Armageddon which will take place at the end of the week. [the invasion: Ezekiel 38:1-17, 39:1-2] [the battle of Armageddon: Ezekiel 38:18-23, 39:3-29]
Zechariah also records the same including the invasion of the surrounding nations in the Middle East and the Lord's return to defeat Israel's enemies, restore the Kingdom to Israel, and establish His personal rule over the earth for 1,000 years. [Zechariah 12:2-9, 13:8-9] [the invasion: Zechariah 14:1-2, 14:4-5] [the battle of Armageddon: Zechariah 14:3, 14:12-15] [the Kingdom: Zechariah 14:8-11, 14:16]
Psalms 83 has the same picture and ID's Israel's immediate neighbors as the enemies and their confederacy. It also should be noted that Assur is the supporter of their intentions. Assur was the early pioneer of the ancient Assyrian Empire whose core cities were located in the northern sector of the Middle East. [Genesis 10:10-11]
Israel's position in the Land of Israel upon their return is and will be one of protection and permanency. The Lord is keeping them there for His purposes. This is the case today even though the nation has been attacked many times by surrounding enemies .... the nation will not be moved until the Lord allows. The Lord is protecting them and Satan (gog) knows it. [Ezekiel 38:11-12, 14]
The Lord addresses Satan as gog who is the ruler of the beast from the abyss and the little horn, human king of the north. It is Satan who then again will deceive and foment a human rebellion at the end of the Lord's millennial Kingdom 1,000 + years later. Gog is not a human. The terms "gog" and "magog" are used again, but symbolically, to ID Satan and the nations that he will deceive at the end of the Lord's millennial Kingdom [Revelation 9:11, 13:4, 17:8-14] [Ezekiel 38:2, 39:1] [Daniel 7:8-11, 7:17-21, 7:24-26, 8:9-12, 8:23-25] [Revelation 20:7]
The Land of Magog noted is the geographical area of the original ancient habitations of Magog and his brothers in the northern Middle East, not Russia or some other European location. There were later migrations out of the Middle East, but these extensions are not part of the vision. The ancient names are used to ID the geographical location of gog's human forces at the time of the end [Ezekiel 38:2-7]
The little horn's related actions are also recorded in Daniel 11:36-45. He will rise in the northern Middle East, unite the Middle East by forming alliances (as noted in Ezekiel 38:4-9) and by conquest (as noted in Daniel 11:39-43), and he will invade and conquer Israel by midweek (as noted in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:41,45 and Daniel 12:7). At the same time forces from the far east and far north will challenge his ambitions as noted in Daniel 11:44. He will quickly vanquish his opposers and then he will rule the Middle East and Israel for 42 months during the second half of the week.
This will position him to attempt to gain control of the world. Mystery Babylon's "great city", and related fall of western financial and economic influence, and the ability to oppose him militarily, will have already been destroyed by him and the 10 other Middle Eastern rulers early in the week. [Revelation 8:7-12, 17:16-18, 18:1-24]. Most of the rest of the nations of significance that are left will join and follow his quest for world rule because of a common bondage which I believe is the religion of Islam.
The Lord will turn on him, his kingdom (dominion), and followers at the end of his 42 month rule and will destroy them within 30 days. This will involve the 7 vials of His wrath and end with the battle of Armageddon. [Ezekiel 38:18-23, 39:3-29] [Revelation 14:9-20, 16:1-21, 17:14, 19:11-21]
Satan, the little horn (controlled by Satan's beast from the abyss), and Satan's false prophet will gather the military forces primarily from the near east (east of the Middle East), including his own Middle Eastern forces, and will challenge the Lord at Armageddon. The near east forces will transverse the dry Euphrates River bed from the Persian Gulf to reach the battle area north of Israel. [Revelation 16:12-14, 17:14, 19:19]
The Lord will destroy the little horn, the human armies under his command, his kingdom and followers, and will cast Satan's beast and the false prophet who are both fallen angelics into the lake of fire. Satan (Gog) will be captured, cast into the abyss and kept there for 1,000 years. [Revelation 19:19-21, 20:1-3]. He will be released 1.000 years later to cause another human rebellion of the millennial nations and subsequently destroyed in the lake of fire. [Revelation 19,20]
Ezekiel records the initial invasion of Israel by the little horn king of the north just before midweek. He then records the resulting battle of Armageddon which will take place at the end of the week. [the invasion: Ezekiel 38:1-17, 39:1-2] [the battle of Armageddon: Ezekiel 38:18-23, 39:3-29]
Zechariah also records the same including the invasion of the surrounding nations in the Middle East and the Lord's return to defeat Israel's enemies, restore the Kingdom to Israel, and establish His personal rule over the earth for 1,000 years. [Zechariah 12:2-9, 13:8-9] [the invasion: Zechariah 14:1-2, 14:4-5] [the battle of Armageddon: Zechariah 14:3, 14:12-15] [the Kingdom: Zechariah 14:8-11, 14:16]
Psalms 83 has the same picture and ID's Israel's immediate neighbors as the enemies and their confederacy. It also should be noted that Assur is the supporter of their intentions. Assur was the early pioneer of the ancient Assyrian Empire whose core cities were located in the northern sector of the Middle East. [Genesis 10:10-11]
Israel's position in the Land of Israel upon their return is and will be one of protection and permanency. The Lord is keeping them there for His purposes. This is the case today even though the nation has been attacked many times by surrounding enemies .... the nation will not be moved until the Lord allows. The Lord is protecting them and Satan (gog) knows it. [Ezekiel 38:11-12, 14]
The Lord addresses Satan as gog who is the ruler of the beast from the abyss and the little horn, human king of the north. It is Satan who then again will deceive and foment a human rebellion at the end of the Lord's millennial Kingdom 1,000 + years later. Gog is not a human. The terms "gog" and "magog" are used again, but symbolically, to ID Satan and the nations that he will deceive at the end of the Lord's millennial Kingdom [Revelation 9:11, 13:4, 17:8-14] [Ezekiel 38:2, 39:1] [Daniel 7:8-11, 7:17-21, 7:24-26, 8:9-12, 8:23-25] [Revelation 20:7]
The Land of Magog noted is the geographical area of the original ancient habitations of Magog and his brothers in the northern Middle East, not Russia or some other European location. There were later migrations out of the Middle East, but these extensions are not part of the vision. The ancient names are used to ID the geographical location of gog's human forces at the time of the end [Ezekiel 38:2-7]
The little horn's related actions are also recorded in Daniel 11:36-45. He will rise in the northern Middle East, unite the Middle East by forming alliances (as noted in Ezekiel 38:4-9) and by conquest (as noted in Daniel 11:39-43), and he will invade and conquer Israel by midweek (as noted in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:41,45 and Daniel 12:7). At the same time forces from the far east and far north will challenge his ambitions as noted in Daniel 11:44. He will quickly vanquish his opposers and then he will rule the Middle East and Israel for 42 months during the second half of the week.
This will position him to attempt to gain control of the world. Mystery Babylon's "great city", and related fall of western financial and economic influence, and the ability to oppose him militarily, will have already been destroyed by him and the 10 other Middle Eastern rulers early in the week. [Revelation 8:7-12, 17:16-18, 18:1-24]. Most of the rest of the nations of significance that are left will join and follow his quest for world rule because of a common bondage which I believe is the religion of Islam.
The Lord will turn on him, his kingdom (dominion), and followers at the end of his 42 month rule and will destroy them within 30 days. This will involve the 7 vials of His wrath and end with the battle of Armageddon. [Ezekiel 38:18-23, 39:3-29] [Revelation 14:9-20, 16:1-21, 17:14, 19:11-21]
Satan, the little horn (controlled by Satan's beast from the abyss), and Satan's false prophet will gather the military forces primarily from the near east (east of the Middle East), including his own Middle Eastern forces, and will challenge the Lord at Armageddon. The near east forces will transverse the dry Euphrates River bed from the Persian Gulf to reach the battle area north of Israel. [Revelation 16:12-14, 17:14, 19:19]
The Lord will destroy the little horn, the human armies under his command, his kingdom and followers, and will cast Satan's beast and the false prophet who are both fallen angelics into the lake of fire. Satan (Gog) will be captured, cast into the abyss and kept there for 1,000 years. [Revelation 19:19-21, 20:1-3]. He will be released 1.000 years later to cause another human rebellion of the millennial nations and subsequently destroyed in the lake of fire. [Revelation 19,20]
QUOTE (EOTWAWKI1961 @ Sep 17 2008, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 11:54 PM)
I'm confident both are "end time" events that do not occur simultaneously.
I agree.
Ezekiel's battle must occur first.
I agree
JP-I await to see whether Ezekiel battle occurs before or after public reappearance of the final "beast"
EOT- IMHO it (Ezekiel battle) occurs before the public appearance of the beast.
I agree.
Ezekiel's battle must occur first.
I agree
JP-I await to see whether Ezekiel battle occurs before or after public reappearance of the final "beast"
EOT- IMHO it (Ezekiel battle) occurs before the public appearance of the beast.
JP- I lean that way, but can't pin it down with scripture.
EOT - A summary from a pre-tribber...
JP- A summary from a post-tribber...
Since the final "beast" plainly "wages war on the saints", [Rev 13] and
since the martyrs who faced and overcame the "beast"
[by not taking the "mark" and
by not worshipping the "beast" and
by not woshipping the image of the "beast"]
are so WONDERFULLY REWARDED [Rev 20:4]
I cannot understand how anyone would think Jesus
is going to whisk His people away before the "beast" reigns on earth.
[Rev 20:4 is the group one should aspire to be in]
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
EOT-
1. Rapture/just before MBG destroyed (perhaps only a few hours or days before)
2. MBG destroyed/7 year Trib starts
3. Ezekiel Battle/sometime during the latter half of the 1st 42 months of tribulation/ends just before mid trib
4. Man of Sin rules over the world/mid trib
5. Two Witnesses revealed/mid trib
6. Armageddon/at the end of the 7 year trib
7. Beast and false prophet cast alive into the LOF
8. Satan cast into the abyss for 1000 years
7. The Lord's 1000 year rule over mankind
8. Satan freed from the abyss after a 1000 years to deceive man again/then detroyed by the Lord & cast into the LOF
God's Blessings! Rob
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Sep 18 2008, 04:12 AM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 14 2008, 12:54 AM)
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Sep 13 2008, 09:14 PM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 08:02 AM)
Invasion of Israel and Armageddon - Two separate battles.
What I am curious about is: Which will happen first -
The day the world is amazed by seeing the final "beast"
or Russia [and allies] invasion of Israel ??
I fully expect our generation to see both of these events.
Sooner rather than later.
Hi John, Consider that both battles happen at the same time but in different locations. God fights both to show the world...He is God and there will be no mistake. The battles are against all of Israel and only the house of Judah is in the nation of Israel...which wasn't a nation until 1948. So there will be one battle against them but what of the rest of Israel? The "house of Israel" are ten tribes of Israel while the "house of Judah," are the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Together they are all of Israel but prophecy deals with them separately. So, if one battle is fought against the house of Judah in Judea...where is the other battle fought? Where is the "house of Israel" today? Who has Russia always been against? Think of them as Esau and Jacob....for they are the types God gave us to understand the future.
JP-The battle of Revelation 19 culminates with the return of Christ in power.
The battle of Ezekiel 38-39 does not culminate with return of Christ in power.
Ezekiel specifies invader comes from the "remote North" and the target is specificly Israel.
Rev 16&19 has no mention of "remote North" and Israel is not the target.
I'm confident both are "end time" events that do not occur simultaneously.
Ezekiel's battle must occur first.
I await to see whether Ezekiel battle occurs before or after public reappearance of the final "beast"
Josh-The Ezekiel Battle is the "springboard" the False messiah will use to be accepted as God.
JP- Makes sense to me.
Josh-This war is the climactic Battle of the "birthpains" Jesus spoke of that will lead to His reign. Jesus also warned us, "but the end is not yet" Jesus knew many would be decieved into believing that this IS the final battle.
[/indent] At the climax of the Ezekiel war, we see "all the men on the face of the earth shall Shake at his presence." Ez. 38:20. Although the Lord DOES reveal Himself here at the time of this battle, it isn't His return. We witness the very same event in Rev. 6:6-12, the sixth seal. "All the men hid themselves in the dens and the rocks from the face of Him that Sitteth on the throne." Rev 6:15-17. This is the same revealing we have Just witnessed in Ezekiel. This is once again, an event the Lord has revealed Himself, but isn't returning. THEY see him sitting on the throne. When Jesus returns, He's on a horse. THEY then conclude, Because they see him on the throne, at the same time this battle is climaxing in Israel......Absolutely no one would be Looking for the Messiah to return, if they thought He was already Here!QUOTERev. 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand."It is after this event, the false Messiah will reign for 42 months. This "revealing" the Lord does, is the "strong delusion" he said He would bring on those that "love not the truth". To the believer who knows what this event is, it is the "sign" of His coming, but not His actual return at this time. The Decieved Jews and Christians who have been being persecuted in the birthpains, will witness this and many will Give Credit to the false Messiah, thinking it was him they saw "sitting on the throne" How SAD! [indent]Jesus stated that "in an hour that ye "think not" the son of man cometh."
I agree. Its all shaping up.
Revelation
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Those sitting in the place of power and authority and given the judgment will be the returning Church as noted in Revelation 19:14. The others are the martyrs of the tribulation period who will be added to the Church, but they must wait untill the end of the tribulation period. [Revelation 6:9-11, 15;2-3]
Satan [Gog] will be tossed into the abyss at the end of the tribulation period and released at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom to cause another rebellion of the nations [symbolically Magog] which the Lord will quickly terminate by destroying the present earth and universe with fire, and Satan will be destroyed forever. The spirits of all unbelievers [the tares] from the beginning of human creation will be burned as well. The Lord will then create a new universe and earth as described in Revelation 21.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Those sitting in the place of power and authority and given the judgment will be the returning Church as noted in Revelation 19:14. The others are the martyrs of the tribulation period who will be added to the Church, but they must wait untill the end of the tribulation period. [Revelation 6:9-11, 15;2-3]
Satan [Gog] will be tossed into the abyss at the end of the tribulation period and released at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom to cause another rebellion of the nations [symbolically Magog] which the Lord will quickly terminate by destroying the present earth and universe with fire, and Satan will be destroyed forever. The spirits of all unbelievers [the tares] from the beginning of human creation will be burned as well. The Lord will then create a new universe and earth as described in Revelation 21.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 19 2008, 01:24 AM)
Revelation
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Stephen-Those sitting in the place of power and authority and given the judgment
will be the returning Church as noted in Revelation 19:14.
Stephen-The others are the martyrs of the tribulation period who will be added to the Church,
but they must wait untill the end of the tribulation period. [Revelation 6:9-11, 15;2-3]
JP-Those who reign with Christ will be those who have faced and overcome the "beast".
Those who reign with Christ are those that you refer to as "martyrs of the tribulation."
You seek to persuade people that they will be "raptured"
prior to being put to the test by the reign of the "beast"s.
Whereas the Rev plainly tells us
the final "beast wages war on the saints" Rev 13
.................
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Stephen-Those sitting in the place of power and authority and given the judgment
will be the returning Church as noted in Revelation 19:14.
Stephen-The others are the martyrs of the tribulation period who will be added to the Church,
but they must wait untill the end of the tribulation period. [Revelation 6:9-11, 15;2-3]
JP-Those who reign with Christ will be those who have faced and overcome the "beast".
Those who reign with Christ are those that you refer to as "martyrs of the tribulation."
You seek to persuade people that they will be "raptured"
prior to being put to the test by the reign of the "beast"s.
Whereas the Rev plainly tells us
the final "beast wages war on the saints" Rev 13
.................
Gog is the "one"
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 20 2008, 12:03 AM)
Gog is the "one"
By the "one", evidently [and ridiculously]
you are contending that "Gog" is the final "beast" Yes ? No ?
Rev 19 the final "beast" is "thrown alive into the lake of fire".
THATS THE END OF HIM
"Gog and Magog" are symbolic names
of all those who rebel against Jesus at the end of His 1000 year reign
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—
to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people,
the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,
where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.
They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You, Benny, and Rob should get together on this issue .... they might agree with you
I do not
Gog [Satan] is the "one" that the Lord addresses in Ezekiel 38,39 and is the same Revelation 20
I do not
Gog [Satan] is the "one" that the Lord addresses in Ezekiel 38,39 and is the same Revelation 20
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 20 2008, 08:20 PM)
You, Benny, and Rob should get together on this issue .... they might agree with you
I do not
Gog [Satan] is the "one" that the Lord addresses in Ezekiel 38,39 and is the same Revelation 20
I do not
Gog [Satan] is the "one" that the Lord addresses in Ezekiel 38,39 and is the same Revelation 20
Revelation 20:7 says what it says. Believe it or not
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 20 2008, 08:20 AM)
You, Benny, and Rob should get together on this issue .... they might agree with you
I do not
Gog [Satan] is the "one" that the Lord addresses in Ezekiel 38,39 and is the same Revelation 20
I do not
Gog [Satan] is the "one" that the Lord addresses in Ezekiel 38,39 and is the same Revelation 20
Gog and his multitude are killed and buried after the Ezekiel war in The valley of Hamongog. If the Ezekiel war and armageddon are the same event as you claim, how can Gog be the "little horn" of Daniel or the "beast" of revelation?....he is supposed to be cast *alive* into the lake of fire after Armageddon. How can Gog be Satan....this fallen angelic is supposed to be around after the Lord's 1000 year reign. It clearly states that Gog and his followers are killed and buried after the Ezekiel war. No LOF mentioned in Ezekiel for Gog.
Ezekiel 39:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
God's Blessings!!
Rob
Rob,
There are three entities involved in this satanic triad
Satan[Gog], the beast [Abaddon-apollyon], and the little horn, human king of the north
Satan and Abaddon-Appollyon are fallen angelics
The little horn is the one humans will see and experience
He will be possessed by Abaddon-Apollyon
It is Abaddon-Apollyon who will be destroyed in the lake of fire just after Armageddon [so will the false prophet who is another fallen angelic]
The human little horn and his human followers will become bird food and the bones will be buried at Armageddon .... this is Satan's [Gog's] loss .... his human contingent will be buried
Satan [Gog] will not be destroyed at Armageddon, but will be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years after which he will be released to cause another human rebellion 1,000 years later
The Lord's reference to "Gog" [Satan] being buried at Armageddon is contingent with His view of the triad. He knows who is behind Abaddon-Apollyon and the little horn .... it is the "one" ..... Satan [Gog]
The Lord is speaking directly to him and foretells of his planned failure
Satan looses the game at Armageddon .... all of his efforts through the human little horn will be "buried" .... destroyed. The Lord will then toss him in the abyss .... but he will live to cause human rebellion another day 1,000 years later.
There are three entities involved in this satanic triad
Satan[Gog], the beast [Abaddon-apollyon], and the little horn, human king of the north
Satan and Abaddon-Appollyon are fallen angelics
The little horn is the one humans will see and experience
He will be possessed by Abaddon-Apollyon
It is Abaddon-Apollyon who will be destroyed in the lake of fire just after Armageddon [so will the false prophet who is another fallen angelic]
The human little horn and his human followers will become bird food and the bones will be buried at Armageddon .... this is Satan's [Gog's] loss .... his human contingent will be buried
Satan [Gog] will not be destroyed at Armageddon, but will be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years after which he will be released to cause another human rebellion 1,000 years later
The Lord's reference to "Gog" [Satan] being buried at Armageddon is contingent with His view of the triad. He knows who is behind Abaddon-Apollyon and the little horn .... it is the "one" ..... Satan [Gog]
The Lord is speaking directly to him and foretells of his planned failure
Satan looses the game at Armageddon .... all of his efforts through the human little horn will be "buried" .... destroyed. The Lord will then toss him in the abyss .... but he will live to cause human rebellion another day 1,000 years later.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 19 2008, 01:24 AM)
Revelation
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 15:2 "And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire,
and those who had been victorious over the beast
and his image and the number of his name,
standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God."
Stephen-Those sitting in the place of power and authority and given the judgment
will be the returning Church as noted in Revelation 19:14.
JP-The "saints" of Revelation 19:14 are indeed "returning" from heaven.
JP- Returning AFTER they were
..... victorious over the beast ...........
NOT, NOT, NOT after they were "raptured" [prior to reign of "beast"]
Even those who eventually are "raptured"
will have been "raptured" AFTER having been
..... victorious over the beast ..........
Stephen - The others are the martyrs of the tribulation period
who will be added to the Church,
but they must wait untill the end of the tribulation period.
[Revelation 6:9-11, 15;2-3] .......................................
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 15:2 "And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire,
and those who had been victorious over the beast
and his image and the number of his name,
standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God."
Stephen-Those sitting in the place of power and authority and given the judgment
will be the returning Church as noted in Revelation 19:14.
JP-The "saints" of Revelation 19:14 are indeed "returning" from heaven.
JP- Returning AFTER they were
..... victorious over the beast ...........
NOT, NOT, NOT after they were "raptured" [prior to reign of "beast"]
Even those who eventually are "raptured"
will have been "raptured" AFTER having been
..... victorious over the beast ..........
Stephen - The others are the martyrs of the tribulation period
who will be added to the Church,
but they must wait untill the end of the tribulation period.
[Revelation 6:9-11, 15;2-3] .......................................
You would have us believe that the most highly blessed
are those who are whisked away without being
..... victorious over the beast .....
Revelation makes it clear that the most highly blessed,
those that "reign with Christ"
are the saved that are
..... victorious over the beast ........
Was your christian grandfather victorious over the beast?
Your problem here is that you do not understand the difference between the religious persecution of humans by other humans ..... and the Lord's coming wrath against the unbelief of those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Totally different setting.
Your problem here is that you do not understand the difference between the religious persecution of humans by other humans ..... and the Lord's coming wrath against the unbelief of those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Totally different setting.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 22 2008, 11:18 AM)
Was your christian grandfather victorious over the beast?
Your problem here is that you do not understand the difference between religious the persecution of humans by other humans ..... and the Lord's coming wrath against the unbelief of those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Totally different setting.
Your problem here is that you do not understand the difference between religious the persecution of humans by other humans ..... and the Lord's coming wrath against the unbelief of those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Totally different setting.
Stephen, How can you make a distinction Between what mankind does to iteself, and the Lord's coming Wrath, But you refuse to make a distinction between Satan's wrath, and God's wrath??????[indent][/indent] If one truly discerns the Book of revelation, all three are present. man's inhumanity to man (in the seals) Satans Wrath on Mankind, followed by the wrath of God. You have no problem discerning, one group from the other, but not the third?????
Satan's wrath will be imputed by the Lord. It is the Lord who will allow [use] Satan and the fallen angelics for His purposes of judging an unbelieving world. This fact is quite clear in scripture. Since the world refuses to believe the truth about Him ..... He will give them the devil. And He will also destroy Satan in the process. The Lord will win it all. This is quite clear in scripture. The tribulation period is the Lord's ..... the entire time frame ..... not just at the end of it as you think. What you call "God's" wrath is the Lord's turning on the beast and His kingdom at the end of the tribulation period. The entire 70th week of the tribulation period will be "great tribulation" such as the world has never seen in human history.
It will be His hour of trial, His coming judgment against all unbelief .... those who follow the beast and the rest of humanity living at the time. A few will turn, repent, and will be saved .....but most of the world will not just as today. They will not even turn under the Lord's unmitigated wrath of confusion, vexation, and destruction. This is the way it will be. The time frame will come without warning .... the Lord will intervene as a "thief" and the world will be instantly plunged into the darkest and most terrifying period known to mankind. Few mortals will survive it. Those that do and are found believing will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals and they will populate His millennial kingdom on the earth. The Body of Christ, composed of both today's church and those who become believers during the tribulation period and are killed for their faith will rule with Him over a kingdom of mortals on the earth for 1,000 years. This is exactly what the scriptures reveal.
It will be His hour of trial, His coming judgment against all unbelief .... those who follow the beast and the rest of humanity living at the time. A few will turn, repent, and will be saved .....but most of the world will not just as today. They will not even turn under the Lord's unmitigated wrath of confusion, vexation, and destruction. This is the way it will be. The time frame will come without warning .... the Lord will intervene as a "thief" and the world will be instantly plunged into the darkest and most terrifying period known to mankind. Few mortals will survive it. Those that do and are found believing will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals and they will populate His millennial kingdom on the earth. The Body of Christ, composed of both today's church and those who become believers during the tribulation period and are killed for their faith will rule with Him over a kingdom of mortals on the earth for 1,000 years. This is exactly what the scriptures reveal.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 22 2008, 09:03 PM)
Satan's wrath will be imputed by the Lord. It is the Lord who will allow [use] Satan and the fallen angelics for His purposes of judging an unbelieving world. This fact is quite clear in scripture. Since the world refuses to believe the truth about Him ..... He will give them the devil. And He will also destroy Satan in the process. The Lord will win it all. This is quite clear in scripture. The tribulation period is the Lord's ..... the entire time frame ..... not just at the end of it as you think. What you call "God's" wrath is the Lord's turning on the beast and His kingdom at the end of the tribulation period. The entire 70th week of the tribulation period will be "great tribulation" such as the world has never seen in human history.
It will be His hour of trial, His coming judgment against all unbelief .... those who follow the beast and the rest of humanity living at the time. A few will turn, repent, and will be saved .....but most of the world will not just as today. They will not even turn under the Lord's unmitigated wrath of confusion, vexation, and destruction. This is the way it will be. The time frame will come without warning .... the Lord will intervene as a "thief" and the world will be instantly plunged into the darkest and most terrifying period known to mankind. Few mortals will survive it. Those that do and are found believing will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals and they will populate His millennial kingdom on the earth. The Body of Christ, composed of both today's church and those who become believers during the tribulation period and are killed for their faith will rule with Him over a kingdom of mortals on the earth for 1,000 years. This is exactly what the scriptures reveal.
It will be His hour of trial, His coming judgment against all unbelief .... those who follow the beast and the rest of humanity living at the time. A few will turn, repent, and will be saved .....but most of the world will not just as today. They will not even turn under the Lord's unmitigated wrath of confusion, vexation, and destruction. This is the way it will be. The time frame will come without warning .... the Lord will intervene as a "thief" and the world will be instantly plunged into the darkest and most terrifying period known to mankind. Few mortals will survive it. Those that do and are found believing will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals and they will populate His millennial kingdom on the earth. The Body of Christ, composed of both today's church and those who become believers during the tribulation period and are killed for their faith will rule with Him over a kingdom of mortals on the earth for 1,000 years. This is exactly what the scriptures reveal.
Steven, Could you please supply any scripture that establishes the Lord will use Satan to perform His wrath in the end time. Are you concluding this from other events in Scripture?
QUOTE
REv. 15:1 And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and Marvellous, seven angels having the seven Last plagues; for IN THEM IS FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD
[indent][/indent]I DON'T SEE HOW ANYONE CAN CONLCUDE THAT ANYTHING PRIOR TO THE VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD, Is part of God's wrath. It is quite clear that His wrath is poured out AFTER the reign of the false messiah. The whole premise that the Lord will use Satan for His judgement, Is contrary to what is occuring during the 42 month reign of the False Messiah. Believers are being Martred. How can you state that this is part of God's Judgement on those who have given their Lives for Him?????? Your analogy is nonsensical!! (IMHO)
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 22 2008, 11:18 PM)
Was your christian grandfather victorious over the beast?
Who is this addressed to ? If to me, please explain relevence. Thank you
Stephen-Your problem here is that you do not understand the difference between the religious persecution of humans by other humans ..... and the Lord's coming wrath against the unbelief of those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Totally different setting.
Who is this addressed to ? If to me, please explain relevence. Thank you
Stephen-Your problem here is that you do not understand the difference between the religious persecution of humans by other humans ..... and the Lord's coming wrath against the unbelief of those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Totally different setting.
Since your post immediately followed mine to you, I presume this post was to me.
IF it was not, then fine.
I am very aware of the difference between man's persecution vice the wrath of God.
I can and have, but you refused to acknowledge as I recall
You need to discover for yourself
It is very evident that the Lord is behind all of the conditions of the tribulation period and will cause the entire inclusion of Satan's involvement for His own purposes.
Tell me where the judgments throughout the tribulation are coming from as Revelation unfolds
Who fires all of the shots and why?
Who sends the devil and his following to the earth at the beginning of the period and why?
Who is angery because an intransigent world of unbelief refuses to acknowledge Him?
Who causes the destruction of the "great City" and who will be invloved?
Who will turn on Satan's folly and destroy his human extensions at the end of the tribulation period?
Do you know that it is the Lord Himself?
Your post-tribulational views keep you from discovering these things
You need to discover for yourself
It is very evident that the Lord is behind all of the conditions of the tribulation period and will cause the entire inclusion of Satan's involvement for His own purposes.
Tell me where the judgments throughout the tribulation are coming from as Revelation unfolds
Who fires all of the shots and why?
Who sends the devil and his following to the earth at the beginning of the period and why?
Who is angery because an intransigent world of unbelief refuses to acknowledge Him?
Who causes the destruction of the "great City" and who will be invloved?
Who will turn on Satan's folly and destroy his human extensions at the end of the tribulation period?
Do you know that it is the Lord Himself?
Your post-tribulational views keep you from discovering these things
Stephen-I can and have, but you refused to acknowledge as I recall
JP-Again your post immediately follows mine, causing me to presume you are addrressing me,
but the content of your post does not actually address my post to you.
I wonder why you are being deliberately ambiguous.
Stephen-You need to discover for yourself
JP-Thanks for that profound guidance.
Stephen-It is very evident that the Lord is behind all of the conditions of the tribulation
period and will cause the entire inclusion of Satan's involvement for His own purposes.
JP-Lord Jesus is in overall control. Amen.
Stephen-Tell me where the judgments throughout the tribulation
are coming from as Revelation unfolds
JP-Well, ultimately, Jesus makes the final judgements.
Of course God the Father authored the Rev. then gave it to Jesus.
JP=In the end we all must "judge" /[decide] who to heed. Jesus/truth or "beast"/lies
Stephen-Who fires all of the shots and why?
JP=Jesus, empowered by God the Father, is ultimate control. Is that is what you are driving at?
Stephen-Who sends the devil and his following to the earth at the beginning of the period .....
JP-God sent the devil to earth ["fell from heaven like a bolt of lightning"].
Stephen- ..... and why ?
JP-Cause war broke out between God and devil and God won.
Stephen-Who is angry because an intransigent world of unbelief refuses to acknowledge Him?
JP-More like "who regrets/is pained that so many will not accept/abide in the truth."
Stephen-Who causes the destruction of the "great City" and who will be invloved?
JP-All I know is "16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled."
Stephen-Who will turn on Satan's folly and destroy his human extensions at the end of the tribulation period?
Stephen-Do you know that it is the Lord Himself?
JP-OK. Hey, I agree [that Jesus will see to the destruction of Satan,
the "beast"s and those that belong to the "beast."]
Stephen-Your post-tribulational views keep you from discovering these things
[/quote]
JP- I don't see anything in your above that has been debated.
JP- Looked to me like you just felt like lobbing a few softballs.
JP-Focus, Stephen, focus.
JP-Again your post immediately follows mine, causing me to presume you are addrressing me,
but the content of your post does not actually address my post to you.
I wonder why you are being deliberately ambiguous.
Stephen-You need to discover for yourself
JP-Thanks for that profound guidance.
Stephen-It is very evident that the Lord is behind all of the conditions of the tribulation
period and will cause the entire inclusion of Satan's involvement for His own purposes.
JP-Lord Jesus is in overall control. Amen.
Stephen-Tell me where the judgments throughout the tribulation
are coming from as Revelation unfolds
JP-Well, ultimately, Jesus makes the final judgements.
Of course God the Father authored the Rev. then gave it to Jesus.
JP=In the end we all must "judge" /[decide] who to heed. Jesus/truth or "beast"/lies
Stephen-Who fires all of the shots and why?
JP=Jesus, empowered by God the Father, is ultimate control. Is that is what you are driving at?
Stephen-Who sends the devil and his following to the earth at the beginning of the period .....
JP-God sent the devil to earth ["fell from heaven like a bolt of lightning"].
Stephen- ..... and why ?
JP-Cause war broke out between God and devil and God won.
Stephen-Who is angry because an intransigent world of unbelief refuses to acknowledge Him?
JP-More like "who regrets/is pained that so many will not accept/abide in the truth."
Stephen-Who causes the destruction of the "great City" and who will be invloved?
JP-All I know is "16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled."
Stephen-Who will turn on Satan's folly and destroy his human extensions at the end of the tribulation period?
Stephen-Do you know that it is the Lord Himself?
JP-OK. Hey, I agree [that Jesus will see to the destruction of Satan,
the "beast"s and those that belong to the "beast."]
Stephen-Your post-tribulational views keep you from discovering these things
[/quote]
JP- I don't see anything in your above that has been debated.
JP- Looked to me like you just felt like lobbing a few softballs.
JP-Focus, Stephen, focus.
I believe you know exactly why I asked you the questions
The correct answers shoot your Post-T view down in flames
Your answers are lacking
Also, I asked you who the mortal believers were that will populate the Lord's millennial kingdom
You cannot answer
I believe that you have selfserving ambitions behind your theology
The correct answers shoot your Post-T view down in flames
Your answers are lacking
Also, I asked you who the mortal believers were that will populate the Lord's millennial kingdom
You cannot answer
I believe that you have selfserving ambitions behind your theology
Stephen, I am still waiting for a reply from my previous Post. The Beast Makes war with the saints.. Is this also part of God's Judgements?
Satan's beast and followers will kill large numbers of tribulation believers
This truth is documented in Revelation's account
The tribulation period is also the Lord's time of wrath against unbelief
The major portion of the world's population at the time will consist of those who deny and ignore Jesus Christ just like today
Billions of humans will die during the tribulation period by its effects
These will include all who will not repent and also many of those who become believers during the period
Any who survive as unbelievers the Lord will cast off and they will not continue into His millennial kingdom
The Lord will allow for Satan's temporal victory over those who become believers, but He will ultimately save them because of their faith
Those believers killed will be resurrected and will rule with Him over His millennial kingdom
Those who survive will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals
The Lord will also take vengence upon all unbelievers at the time and those who will not turn will be destroyed
These will die physically and then their spirits will face the second death after the Lord's millennial reign upon the earth
They will be destroyed in the lake of fire
On the other hand, those who become believers and are killed during the tribulation will be save and will gain immortality
Your view is too narrow and does not allow for the full spectrum of Revelation's teaching
You are trying to make the case for saying that since the Lord will not directly persecute believers during the tribulation period but only allow for it, that He will not be directly taking vengence upon all unbelievers at the same time.
I do not buy your story here
Revelation incorporates both settings together
If you do not understand this then the problem lies with your faulty interpretation of scripture
So we will just have to disagree and move on
This truth is documented in Revelation's account
The tribulation period is also the Lord's time of wrath against unbelief
The major portion of the world's population at the time will consist of those who deny and ignore Jesus Christ just like today
Billions of humans will die during the tribulation period by its effects
These will include all who will not repent and also many of those who become believers during the period
Any who survive as unbelievers the Lord will cast off and they will not continue into His millennial kingdom
The Lord will allow for Satan's temporal victory over those who become believers, but He will ultimately save them because of their faith
Those believers killed will be resurrected and will rule with Him over His millennial kingdom
Those who survive will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals
The Lord will also take vengence upon all unbelievers at the time and those who will not turn will be destroyed
These will die physically and then their spirits will face the second death after the Lord's millennial reign upon the earth
They will be destroyed in the lake of fire
On the other hand, those who become believers and are killed during the tribulation will be save and will gain immortality
Your view is too narrow and does not allow for the full spectrum of Revelation's teaching
You are trying to make the case for saying that since the Lord will not directly persecute believers during the tribulation period but only allow for it, that He will not be directly taking vengence upon all unbelievers at the same time.
I do not buy your story here
Revelation incorporates both settings together
If you do not understand this then the problem lies with your faulty interpretation of scripture
So we will just have to disagree and move on
All I hear is Ones opinion. If God's wrath is filled up in the vials of the WRATH OF GOD, How can you say that what occurs in the 42 month reign of the Antichrist, is part of God's wrath? I know a pre-trib view HAS TO establish that what occurs in the duration of the 70th week is all of God's wrath, However, there is absolutely no scriptrual evidence whatsoever that established this. This is a conclusion based on mere assumptions from Numerous Scriptures. We will have to agree to disagree, because I refuse to compramise the Word of God, to accept a doctrine based on mere presumption. I would Highly reccomend you revisit what you have accepted as absoute Scriptural truth. Eternity is in the balance.
You have not convinced me in any way and you are not reading Revelation's presentation with integrity. Your biased views cause you to deny much scriptural truth. I actually think you know this, but you seem to be motivated by other ambitions. Good luck with your search and your journey.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 23 2008, 04:51 PM)
You have not convinced me in any way and you are not reading Revelation's presentation with integrity. Your biased views cause you to deny much scriptural truth. I actually think you know this, but you seem to be motivated by other ambitions. Good luck with your search and your journey.
I find your Hollow presumptions about me and others very unbecoming for someone who supposedly has such a close walk with the Lord. According to you, I am viewing Revelation wrong, I have a biased view, which cause me to deny Scriptural truth???? Fill me in Please!!!! You then State I know I am purposely doing this, and I am motivated by other ambitions???? Could you please tell me what those ambitions are???? Is this how you respond to people when they ask you to please explain a certian scripture, you have no answer for???? So before you pass Judgement on Myself, and others, Just explain yourself, and verify with scripture! Is that too much to ask??? All I have seen in most of your posts is continious opinions, with no scripture to back up what you state. You then accuse others of doing the very thing you do! Yeah... Lets talk about a little intergity here!!! [indent][/indent] I know what I have shared in many posts is very contriversial, and the end result of it "destroys" the view you hold so close to your Heart. That wasn't my intention. If you cannot even consider the possability of events being played out Like the Holy Spirit showed Me, shows exactly how closed your Spirit is to allowing New revelation in.. How sad!! Is your doctrine that important? You are betting your life on it! I say this in Love!!
You are waisting your time with your continued rambling here
I say you are way off base with your claims of special revelation by some spiritual encounter
What you are telling just does not match up with the Lord's Word
Sorry
Let's disengage
Game over
I say you are way off base with your claims of special revelation by some spiritual encounter
What you are telling just does not match up with the Lord's Word
Sorry
Let's disengage
Game over
QUOTE (Stephen @ Sep 23 2008, 06:42 PM)
You are waisting your time with your continued rambling here
I say you are way off base with your claims of special revelation by some spiritual encounter
What you are telling just does not match up with the Lord's Word
Sorry
Let's disengage
Game over
I say you are way off base with your claims of special revelation by some spiritual encounter
What you are telling just does not match up with the Lord's Word
Sorry
Let's disengage
Game over
It just doesn't line up with what you think it states. OK we'll disengage, But I sure don't consider this a game!! There is "head knowledge" of God's Word, and there is heart Knowledge. Try looking at the Word of God through the eyes of the author, and not your own.
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