[/indent] I want you to consider the following. If the Book of Revelation is a consecutive, blow by blow account of events that lead up to the Lord's return, then what is actually occuring Here? How can this be the DAy of the Lord, if this is only the sixth seal??? Doesn't this event seem to be a little "out of place" with the rest of events??

Is this truly the day of the Lord? Who is stating it is? Is it John? No! Is it Jesus? No, Perhaps an angel, Nope.. It is the great men, the rich men, thr mighty men. What did Jesus say about this type of Person. Isn't it very difficult for them to enter into the Kingdom of God? Are these Believers? Apparently Not. They Hide themselves From Him that is sitting on the throne... Throne?????? When Jesus returns, isn't He riding a white Horse? Consider the following Verse....

QUOTE

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; FOR THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT IS COME....

ISN'T THIS ANGEL PROCLAIMING THE VERY SAME THING, THAT THOSE WHO HIDE IN THE ROCKS ARE?

THE BIG QUESTION IS, WHO DO YOU YOU WANT TO BELIEVE???? Do you want to believe a group of people who Hide from God, that it is the day of the Lord, or this angel?? Here is something else to consider

QUOTE

Joel 2:30-31 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon into BLOOD, BEFOREthe great and terrible day of the Lord comes.

We are witnessing the Blood red moon event in the sixth seal. according to Joel, this occurs BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD Comes. Why then are those who hide themselves in the rocks state, the day of the Lord IS COME? What we don't know is how far before the day of the Lord this happens. THis blood red moon event mustn't be confused with the following...

QUOTE

Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, get you down; for the press is full. the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision. THE SUN AND MOON SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE STARS SHALL WITHDRAW THEIR SHINING....

DID YOU CATCH THAT? We are witnessing the "blood red moon event, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES.... However In the valley of decision, when the harvest occurs, BOTH THE SUN AND MOON ARE DARKENED. (turned black) The moon is not turned blood red. These are two seperate events!

What we are witnessing in the sixth seal is a group of people, accepting an event that APPEARS TO BE the day of the Lord, but it isn't It cant be, for it is only the sixth seal!!!!

The Lord stated He would bring a "strong delusion" on those that "love not the truth" Is this truly the day of the Lord, OR If the order of events are Chronological in Revelation, is this "revealing of the Lord" occuring BEFORE the reign of the FALSE MESSIAH. WILL THE WORLD ACCEPT SOMETHING THAT APPEARS TO BE THE DAY OF THE LORD, before antichrist? [indent]

So we have to ask ourselves, is there a prophetical scripture, where we witness the Lord revealing himself, but not returning at the time He does? This will be by next post. Ezekiel 38 in Revelation.

ok i see what you are saying, the thing is the book of revelation is not consecutive it is not blow by blow, it is written just like the rest of the bible, it tells the same couple time periods in a few differnt ways with difernt details so those who study will get the whole picture together as they piece it through the whole word of God, for example rev 12 is the first 3 1/2 years.

rev 11 and rev 13 are both the second three and a half years.

the vials are all in the day of the Lord which is the wrath that comes after the whole 7 years is over.

the 6th seal, and 7th trump are both the end of tribulation after which the vials come.


the church is in the wilderness fled from the dragon for the first half of trib. then in the second half the beast is given to speak against the most high and persecute the saints who are in the outer court.

babylon is fallen in the day of the Lord

the reaping in rev 16 is the end of the trib and beginning of wrath when we are gathered,reaped up to Jesus and the wicked are reaped and thrown into the wrath of God which is the day of the Lord- the 8th day/year. rev 19 is the end of that day of the Lord, rev 20 partly replays that same time period, then the new heaven and earth and bride and white throne are after that.


all of these events can be proven in that order through all of scripture.

Actually, what I am trying to say, is, the Book of revelation IS in Chronological. The concurrent point of view you mention, (the sixth seal and the 6th trumprt are the same) comes from a lack of understanding to what is acuallty ocurrring in Revelation. Think duplication. There is a series of events we know will occur Prior to the return of the Real Messiah. THe book of Revelation reveals a series of events that will occur Prior to the reign of the FALSE MESIIAH, that will be misconstrued as full prophetic fulfillment. This is what we are witnessing in the Sixth Seal. It is Not the beginnning of the day Of the Lord, But a group of People accepting an event AS the day of the Lord, but it is actually occuring Before the Reign of the FALSE MESSIAH! It is easy to understand why one may conclude a concurrent point of view. The events DO sound so much the same, but they had too, Due to the first event being the :strong delusion" the Lord said he would bring. The sixth seal IS not, and in no way can be the DAy of the Lord!

I've argued the same argument with another on this forum, but it went right over the head.

..................



Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

???

I look forward to the study.

In Christ,

Mike

This event you refer to occurs at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. This however, is not the Ezekiel 38 war. In the ezekiel 38 war, we see it is every mans sword against His brother (Ez. 38:21) This war is being fought between two "brothers" or their descendants. This is the Islamic world Vs the Christian West. In the Battle at the end of the Millineum, it is the Lord Himself that devours, not another Army!!

This view will straighten out the confusion:

The seals of the scroll which contains the actual events of the period are previews of the prevalent conditions of the upcoming tribulation .... not the tribulation period itself. All of the seals must be removed by the Lord from the scroll before the actual tribulation events can begin. This previewing is given to John and those present in heaven during the process of the removal.

The 6th seal gives a preview of the beginning of the upcoming of the tribulation period and pictures the prevalent condition of the beginning of the period including the Lord's wrath and the corresponding human reaction. This condition will last throughout the tribulation period. The stars falling are satan and company, and the beginning earthquake is the same as recorded in chapter 8. Chapter 8 records the start of the actual tribulation events themselves.

The 7th seal is actually a condition in heaven, and just before the scroll opens bringing the actual judgments upon the earth. Only then will the actual events of the tribulation period begin. They will come without warning upon the earth and will begin with the worldwide earthquake in chapter 8.

The details of the 6th seal exemplify the beginning of the tribulation period, not the end of it. This passage is often confused with similar details given of the end of the period as recorded in Matthew 24:29-31. These are not the same, and are separated by time lapse. If one compares the details of each, one will find this to be the case. One set of details marks the beginning of the tribulation period and the other marks the ending of it.

And example would be the "stars" in each passage. The first defines satan and the fallen angelics coming to the earth for their involvement during the tribulation period. The second defines cosmic disturbances related to the visible appearing of the Lord to the mortal inhabitants of the earth who survive the tribulation period. In the first passage the stars fall to the earth ....in the ending passage they do not fall to the earth and are movements of heavenly bodies [the stars], not fallen angelics. If an actual star fell and impacted the earth it would obliterate it. A critical analysis of these two very significant passages of scripture will reveal the differences and this will reveal the correct frame work for the Lord's involvement in His coming judgment and His appearing at the end of it.


+ The Lord's hour of trial will begin with His wrath and will end 7 years later at His appearing.

Beginning - Revelation

The beginning of the tribulation of those days [note 6:17]

Earthquake [note 8:5]

Darkness caused by the destruction on the earth [note 8:7-13]

Stars [fallen angelics] falling to the earth [note 9:1-21, 12:4,9]

Humans intransigent attitude and their hiding from the Lord's coming and continuing wrath of the tribulation period [note 8:7-13, 9:1-21, 16:1-21]

No sign of the Son of Man given

Earth dwellers do not see Him during the tribulation period

No gatherings take place


Ending - Matthew

After the tribulation of those days [note 24:29]

No earthquake [note Revelation 16:18 and Ezekiel 38:19. This quake at Armageddon will occur just before the end of the tribulation]

Darkness caused by the cosmic disturbances. [note 24:29]

Stars [cosmic] falling because of the cosmic disturbances related to the Lord's appearing [note 24:29]. Not falling to the earth .... just one would obliterate the earth.

Sign of the Son of Man appears [note 24:39]

Earth dwellers see Him [note 24:30]

Humans mourn when they see Him [note 24:30]

Gatherings of the mortal elect of Israel and of the nations that are left [note 24:31, 25:31]

That is an ineresting Perspective, however, Isn't the entire Book of Revelation A "preview" for us, to what will occur? Why would we need a"preview" in a "preview"

[/indent] If events in revelation were concurrent and exact, that would be a possability, However we are witnessing events getting Progessively worse through the Seals and trumpets, which leads to the 42 month reign of the False messiah. In Matthew 24, Jesus stated that there would be "wars and rumors of Wars" all these are the beginning of Sorrows, or Birthpains. Isn't this what we are witnessing throught the Seals and trumpets? In the seals 1/4 of humantiy is effected. In the trumpets 1/3 of humanity is effected. These are the Birthpains. Things get progressively worse, that will lead not to the Reurn of the Lord, but the establishment of the Kingdom of the False messiah First. Jesus warned us that there will be "wars and rumors of Wars" BUT THE END IS NOT YET! Was this Just a "general warning" about the state of the world, when He returns, or was this a more specific warning?? The reason Jesus stated, "but the end is not Yet", is He knew that there would be a possablility of one accepting the "Wars and rumors of wars" AS the end. He was telling His disciples that there will be events that will appear to be the end, BEFORE THE END, BUT DON'T ACCEPT IT AS THE END. BECAUSE IF YOU DO, YOU WILL BE DECIEVED!

QUOTE

Matthew 24: 23 The if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not

follow the flow of what is being projected here By Jesus to His disciples. There will be wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet, There will be false Christs, but the end is not yet! There will be a false Messiah, because there will be events accepted as full prophetic fulfillment, before the false Christ Comes.[indent]

Prophetical events MUST be able to hold muster When it come to continuity. The order of events must line up, whether if it was What Jesus Said, revelation, or the Prophets. I see Birthpains occuring, leading to the 42 month reign of the false messiah. This is followed by the Harvest, and the vials of the wrath of God being poured out. The true 70th week is made up of 3 1/2 years of Birthpains, that leads and projects the False messiah to his position of Power! At the end of His reign, his real identity is made known. The falling away has come, His identity is revealed at the END OF HIS REIGN (NOT THE BEGINNING) this will be followed by the day of the Lord immediately after THE 70TH WEEK.

"That is an ineresting Perspective, however, Isn't the entire Book of Revelation A "preview" for us, to what will occur? Why would we need a"preview" in a "preview""

Of course the Book of Revelation is a forecast of the future events of the time of the end .... no question about it. And so is the previewing of the tribulation period just before the period begins. This previewing is part the sequents of events that will take place at the time. John's spirit was taken to heaven and into the future [time travel] to be shown the time of the end in advance so that he could record the time frame and then present it in the Book of Revelation.

It is the Body of Christ including the 24 elders and the great multitude who will be shown the removal of the scroll seals by the Lord .... then the tribulation period of His wrath will begin on the earth .... and John will obviously be present as an immortal an member of the Body of Christ [most likely one of the 24 elders]. He will experience the same that he has already experienced again. There is an interesting indication of his position as an elder recorded in chapter 7. One of the elders asks him who the great multitude around the throne is that he saw and he replied "you know" and then the elder gives the answer. John saw and conversed with himself.

This removal of the seals which will include a preview of the upcoming tribulation is still a future event and has not taken place yet. If you are a believer you will be immortalized and will attend this event. You will see the Lord actually remove the seals and will be in His presence. This event will take place in heaven and then the Lord will trigger His wrath upon the earth. If you are present you will observe the Lord's removal of the seals and also the ensuing tribulation events themselves as they play out upon the earth. Revelation presents this picture. Those immortal humans who dwell in heaven during the period are mentioned 10 times in Revelation's unfolding and these will return to the earth with the Lord at the end of the period to rule with Him during His 1,000 year millennial kingdom which will be composed of mortals.

it can only be concluded that revelations is consecutive if the book is taken by itself and is not added and compaired to all the rest of end time prophesy, when we put it all together it is clear that it is not in order but it written exactly like the rest of the word of God.

Can you please supply scriptures that prove that it is NOT in order?

Revelation's literary structure does revolve and repeat like the first part of chapters 7 and 14, there are parenthetical discourses that give detail, and there are selective reach backs which include historical detail for giving the reader overview like chapters 12 and 17 .... but the overall movement of the vision is forward and in order.

I do agree that there are certian "reach backs" to past events within revelation to bring clarity to what is currently occuring. This however, does not make, what is being reached back to, a preview. Let me give you a good example[indent][/indent] This is a "flashback" to what was Just experienced in the fifth and Sixth trumpet. It however, doesn't make the fifth and sixth trumpet "a preview". It is actually happening when the fifth and sixth trumpet is blown. We are being given clarity to an event that has already occured, so there will be no confusion at all to what has Just occured.

i will first try to give a simple example, and if after this you would like a long more detailed explination i will give it, but we will first see if this simple example shows to you that it is not in order.


Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.


Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev 12:13 ¶ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This is a 3 1/2 year period showed here a couple times and we see that the DRAGON HAD SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS AND SEVEN CROWNS ON HIS HEADS.

Now we can see in the very next chapter a CHANGE in the government from DRAGON TO BEAST

Rev 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

So this beast now comes in and has seven heads like the dragon and ten horns like the dragon but with this beast the crowns are upon the horns where as with the previous dragon the crowns were on his head. so this is a change from one beast to the next ( we know beasts are governments)

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority

So the DRAGON GIVES AUTHORITY TO THIS NEW BEAST in chapter 13- the problem now comes that this same beast is seen BEFORE this chapter in revelations and in both places this beast does the same thing

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Now we see this same beast- do the same thing in chapter 11

Rev 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Rev 11:7 ¶ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


that is one example of how it is not in order. here is one more simple example

you are proposing that the 6th seal is a fake deceptive time of wrath but the word of God shows this to be untrue by other scriptures which show that other events at this exact same time are shown to happen at the end of tribulation when wrath comes,and are shown to happen in revelation at the 6th seal.

Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Mat 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:


Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.


Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.


Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.

Mar 13:24 ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.


Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Mar 13:28 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Luk 21:25 ¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;


Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Luk 21:29 ¶ And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;


Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.





Now i decided to show one more thing that was about your first point- you contend that the moon being dark and the moon being as blood is not the same thing however we see it is the same thing here is the proof

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [/color]

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Joe 2:12 ¶ Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:


Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.


Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?


Joe 2:15 ¶ Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:


Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.


Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where [is] their God?


Joe 2:18 ¶ Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.


Joe 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:


Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern [army], and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.


Joe 2:21 ¶ Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.


Joe 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.


Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].


Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.


Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.


Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.


Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I [am] in the midst of Israel, and [that] I [am] the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.


Joe 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. [color="#8B0000"]


So compair these verses together

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:



Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


hope this helps

"I do agree that there are certian "reach backs" to past events within revelation to bring clarity to what is currently occuring. This however, does not make, what is being reached back to, a preview."

>The preview material is in chapter 6. The removal of the 6 seals will occur before the tribulation begins. These are like a pre-game review before the actual game begins. This event will take place in heaven just before the tribulation period begins on the earth. The last seal removed is in chapter 8 and then the unfolding of the actual tribulation events will begin. All of the first 6 trumpets will sound initially in rapid fire sequence and these will set up the backdrop of and include the actual judgment events of the tribulation period. These actions are not previews. The preview of the period will have already taken place before these things begin. The removal of the seals will happen in short order, then the first 6 trumpets will sound and the tribulation period will take its course. The 7th trumpet sounding and related events will occur toward the end of the 7 year tribulation period and will bring the Lord's specific judgments against the kingdom of the beast and his followers. These judgments will occur within a 30 day period after the second 1,260 days of the 7 year time frame of the 70th week decreed and will consumate in the battle of Armageddon. The Lord will destroy the beast's kingdom in 30 days. It is also significant to understand that the 6th seal views the beginning of the tribulation, not the end of it. The end is described in Matthew 29 and these are two different events separated by the time lapse of the tribulation period. Careful study of the these two events will reveal this truth.

I don't see How all these scriptures you posted, establishes the blood red moon event as the event that occus In the day of the Lord. To the contrary,Lets compare the two events in Joel[indent][/indent]tHIS EVENT CLEARLY OCCURS BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES. WHAT WE DON'T KNOW, IS HOW FAR BEFORE THE DAY OF THE lORD THIS OCCURS! One day, one month, or perhaps 3 1/2 years? Almost in the same breath Joel states the following: Consider the Following. The blood red moon event occurs in the sixth seal. The event Where the sun and moon are darkened, happens when? at the time of the Harvest. This is in Rev. 14:15-20. There is a definite time gap between the blood red moon event, and the harvest, when the sun and moon is darkened. Not only is the trumpets described between the two, the 42 month reign of the false messiah is also described in the 11th 12th, and 13th, chapters. it is very clear to me, that these are two seperate events!! One before the day of the Lord comes, and the other, in the Valley of decision at the return of the Lord. The problem is, Most will accept the blood red moon event as the latter! (when it occurs) this is why we witness those who hide themselves in the rocks, proclaiming it is the day of the Lord. They are confused! LAST TIME I CHECKED, JESUS WAS STILL GOING TO RETURN ON A HORSE. These folks see the "face of him that sits on the throne". This is not when the Lord is returning. We witness this same event being played out in Ezekiel 38 at the climax of the Ezekiel 38 Battle. "all the men that are on the face of the earth shall "shake at my presence". Look up the Word "presence" in Ezekiel and the word "face" in Revelation. you will see they are one and the same, and are interchangable.

I would suggest that the "first" darkness will be caused by the destruction of the great city in chapter 8 [first 4 trumpet soundings]. This darkness caused by the destruction of 1/3 of the earth where the great city is located will be the hall mark of the beginning of the Day of the Lord .... His coming judgment period. The harvest in chapter 14 is in reference to the battle of Armageddon and the wine pressing of the grapes [the beast and his followers]. The Lord swings the sickle and the angel gathers the grapes into His wine press. This passage should be read in conjunction with 19:11. This harvest is one of judgment at the end of the tribulation period. The "second" darkness in Matthew 24:29 is a different event and this will occur just after the tribulation period is over. This cosmic disturbance will accompany the Lord's visible appearing to the mortal suvivors of the tribulation period.

If I understand you correctly, you are now stating that there are TWO darkness events AFTER the blood red moon event???? The one spoken of in Joel 3:12-15, is the Same one Spoken of in Matthew 24:29. It is the same, because it is at this time He sends forth His angels Vs 31 For the harvest! One angel has a trumpet in Matthew, the other the sickle, In Joel and revelation. but it is the same harvest!! We do not see a Harvest occuring in the Sixth seal do we? Only a group of people Hiding from God! How can we see the final harvest, when Joel tells us the blood red moon event occurs before the Day of the Lord comes? Thus, BEFORE THE HARVEST!

I layed this out very clearly from here may the Lord just give you truth and bless you in Him God bless brother

"If I understand you correctly, you are now stating that there are TWO darkness events AFTER the blood red moon event????"

No. The "darkness" is what you call the "blood red" moon event. One occurs at the onset and beginning of the tribulation period and the other one will occur just after the end of the tribulation period. If the sun is blotted out by massive debris of destruction upon the earth, the moon will appear red just as in an eclipse. This will be the case with the "first" darkness accompanying the destruction noted in chapter 8. The effects on the sun and mood after the end of the tribulation period will be different and will be caused by cosmic disturbances effecting the sun's output. This will be caused by the Lord Himself and will accompany His appearing to the world at the time.

So, you do acknowledge the diffence between the blood red moon event, and the event that occurs when the Lord returns, when both the sun and moon are turned black Correct?

Correct. If you mean the "darkness" at the onset of the tribulation period caused by destruction upon the earth which you call "the blood red moon event". This destruction will have the same effect on both the sun and moon since the moon's light is dependent upon the sun which will be blotted out by the debris from the destruction upon the earth. This event is totally different that the darkness that will come upon the earth when the Lord appears to the world just after the tribulation period. The Lord's intervention [return as you call it ... He is here right now and is watching, we just can't see Him} will begin with His day of judgment, so He intervenes only once .... the world will just not see Him until the tribulation period is over.

Sooooo, if the blood red moon event IS before the Day of the Lord comes,As you state it is, then you would have to agree, that those in the Sixth seal ARE accepting something that appears to be the day of the Lord, but isn't! Not only that, If the blood red moon event occurs BEFORE the tribulation, and the Sun AND moon are Darkened at the Lords Return, what does that do to the concurrent theory of events?? By your own admission that the blood red moon event occurs before the day of the Lord, and the Sun and Moon are darkened AT the Lord returns Disproves the concurrent theory.

What is the concurrent theory you refer to?

The events of "darkness" in view are different and separated by a period of 7 years of tribulation for sure, but I do not not agree with your thinking that the view in Revelation 6 is one which does not appear to be the Day of the Lord to the inhabitants of the earth. They will know exactly where the judgments are coming from and why. They will not repent even after the Lord sends blow after blow of His many and varied judgments .... even after billions are killed. Further reading about this intransigence reveal this truth.

The "Day" of the Lord is the entire time frame of the beginning of the tribulation period, its duration, His subsequent millennial kingdom, and eternity. All of this is the "Day of the Lord". It is His "day" ..... the time frame in which human rule (man's day) will cease and the Lord will reign. Many events will take place in the "Day" (time) of the Lord. This "day" is not just one day as some teach .... but the time frame of an unending time lapse.

Hope,

No one knows when the Lord will trigger the events of His coming judgment .... the tribulation period. He has kept this date from human discovery. I do see stage setting events today that must be in place before the Lord begins His judgment.

A remnant part of national Israel has returned to the land of Israel. These must be there for the Lord's time of judgment. I also see the enemies of the nation including the Middle Eastern adherents of Islam. These populations must be present as well. All other signs and events included in the scope of visionary prophecy contained in the Bible will not begin until the actual time frame of the Lord's coming judgment is in play.

The coming tribulation period will begin suddenly and without warning or signs bringing unprecedented massive destruction and upheaval to the earth. There will be no question about its identification when it begins. But, no one knows when it will come. It could start before this day ends, or the Lord could tarry for a much longer time. It has already been more that 2,000 years since He was present on the earth in the first century.

This is why the Lord has said that the believer living at the time must be ready .... focused upon Him and following His ways each and every day of one's life. There will be those who profess belief at the time and who will not be ready. In this case He will not keep them from His coming judgment. They will still be able to turn to Him during the period, but under very confusing, vexing, and destructive conditions. Unfortunately most who enter the period will not do this and they will be killed by the tribulations of the period and lost forever.

The problem with the Folks in the sixth seal. is THEY ARE ACCEPTING what they are experiencing, As Gods Wrath, or His Judgements. What they are are going through at this point in time truly IS BAD, but what they are experiencing is not the Lord's Judgements. I base this on the following two scriptures...

[/indent]We witmess in the fifth seal a group of souls who had given their lives for their testimony. The question they ask, is quite profound... How long will you NOT JUDGE? What does that tell us? God's judgement has yet to begin to fall! If anyone would know it, these folks would!!! Look at the reply that is given them....

QUOTE

And white robes were given unto every one of them: and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a "little season" untilltheir fellow servants also and their brethren should be killed as they were SHOULD BE FULFILLED.

NOT ONLY HAS THE LORD'S JUDGEMENTS NOT BEGAN, THERE IS STILL A "SEASON" before they do begin to fall. There is no mention of anyone giving their lives after this, but before the sixth seal. The Lord stated that it was Prophesied to happen, for those who will still give their lives. This occurs in the 42 month reign of the FAlse messiah! The point I am trying to make is, How can the "Wrath of the lamb, according to the people of the sixth seal, be going forth at this time? It can't, for their is still a "short season," many will give their Lives for their testimony. The Lords Judgement, is not poured out until after the 42 month reign of the false Messiah. Rev 14:6-7 Verifies this.

QUOTE

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of Heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and People, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to Him: For the hour of His judgement is come

[indent]

This angel is stating the very same thing those who hide in the rocks are, and are proclaiming "the Wrath of the Lord is come" This is the second scripture that verifies that what is being experienced in the sixth seal, IS NOT the wrath of the Lamb. Its bad, REALLY REALLYBAD, BUT IT ISN'T THE LORDS JUDGEMENT. One cannot even conclude that what the people in the sixth seal are stating is a "preview" of what is occuring with the angel, because these are two different "beings" stating it!! One Human, one Angelic!

I see the visions in a totally different way than you do with regard to your post above. I think you are basing your speculative interpretations on some sort of pre-conceived idea that you have encountered. It happens to be a common slant that is in circulation today and I have studied it before. My opinion is that it is in fact just an attempt to push an idea and it is not based upon a comprehensive and correct rendering of the visions of the Bible prophets. Much is added with this speculation that is simply not foundationally sound exegesis of the prophetic scriptures. Much of what you tell has to be added to the texts of the visions. For example, you say that it is "not" the Lord's wrath and that the humans who experience it just think it is. The passage in question states just the opposite and gives no accompanying rendition like the one you have suggested. Your view requires manipulation of what is clearly written and this is why I would suggest that you check out your source. I believe you are on a dead ended trail which will not lead you to the correct understanding of the time of the end.

I like your interpretation..The seals and the vials and trumpets are describing the same events, but they intensify as time progresses..instead of them being consecutive, they are simataneous but there intensity grows greater, in other words the seals turn into trumphets as they grow more intense..

So by the time the sixth seal is opened all the other vails and trumphets have been opened..