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BFSmith
It is God whom has chosen the believer and cause him or her to come to God

John 6:44 (MontgomeryNT)
44 answered Jesus; "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him; then I will raise him up on the last day.

The twelve disciples were chosen

John 6:70 (MontgomeryNT)
In reply Jesus said to them. "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? And yet even of you one is an enemy."

Though some believe in Him yet Jesus did not choose them

John 6:14-15 (KJV)
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 2:23-25 (ASV)
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. 24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, 25 and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.

They were not chosen by God, the Father

John 6:63-71 (MontgomeryNT)
63 "The spirit is what gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words which I have been speaking to you, are spirit and are life.
64 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who should betray him.
65 So he added, "This is why I told you that no on can come to me unless it be given from the Father."
66 Therefore many of his disciples drew back and no longer companied with him.
67 So Jesus appealed to the Twelve. "You also do not wish to leave me, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered. "To whom shall we go Master? You have words of eternal life;
69 and we have learned to believe and we know that you are the holy one of God."
70 In reply Jesus said to them. "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? And yet even of you one is an enemy."
71 Now Jesus was speaking of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot; for Judas was to betray him, although he was one of the Twelve.

Then there are those who don’t understand the gospel; Satan also prevents the message from taking root in their mind

Matthew 13:19 (KJV)
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Do we understand what Jesus is saying here? Satan is the one who steals away what is put in the mind of this individual; Satan does not allow what is sown to take root and grow. This is happening with out the person realizing it. To such a person he or she just believes that they are not interested in the message, and just forgets about it and go on with their lives.

Jesus did not want everyone to know who He was

Mark 1:23-26 (KJV)
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.


Mark 1:34 (KJV)
34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

What would be a better witness (not counting the miracles that He did) than the demons themselves of who Jesus was? Had Jesus aloud the demons to speak all the people would began to believe that Jesus was whom He said He is….the Son of God…God in the flesh.

Jesus did not want those whom the Father had not called to understand His message

Mark 4:11-12 (KJV)
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The unbeliever is already separated from God; they are already dead….spiritually.

Matthew 8:21-22 (GW)
21 Another disciple said to him, “Sir, first let me go to bury my father.”
22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Most unbelievers do not believe not because he will not but because he cannot….it is not in our nature to do what is right in God’s eyes. Our natural nature is to do what we feel is best to us or as we see it.

Romans 8:7-8 (KJV)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jeremiah 10:23 (ASV)
23 O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Deuteronomy 12:8 (NASB77)
8 "You shall not do at all what we are doing here today, every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes;

Proverbs 21:2 (ASV)
2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes; But Jehovah weigheth the hearts.
Our natural nature is to do what we feel is best to us or as we see it. But our experience often tells us that more often that not what we thought was right was not right after all.

Proverbs 14:12 (ASV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; But the end thereof are the ways of death.

God allows the unbeliever to be the way they are so that He will have mercy on them.

Romans 11:32 (BBE)
32 For God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all.

Luke 23:34 (MontgomeryNT)
34 Jesus kept saying, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided his garments among them, casting lots for them,

God does not hold the unbeliever responsible for their unbelief….Satan, whom the Bible calls the god of this world is the one who is responsible for deceiving the unbeliever.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (ASV)
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.

God will have mercy on the unbeliever and at the time appointed and raise them from the dead or if alive at Jesus’ second return open their mind to the truth.

Revelation 20:5 (NKJV)
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
Both the just (Christians) and the unjust (unbeliever) will be resurrected…but the unjust will not be resurrected together with the just. The just will be resurrected to eternal life, but the unjust will be resurrected to their former state of existence. It is that time God will offer them eternal life, by giving them His Holy Spirit as He did Christians, whom at this time have been gloried.

Acts 24:15 (ASV)
15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust.
The prophet Ezekiel in a vision was told by God that He will resurrect the house of Israel from the dead. They along with all people who died without hope God will pure out His Spirit on them, then they will not only know that God is, but they will be able to obey Him as well.

Ezekiel 37:3-14 (ASV)
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord Jehovah, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah.
5 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live.
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and, behold, an earthquake; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I beheld, and, lo, there were sinews upon them, and flesh came up, and skin covered them above; but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.
12 Therefore prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O my people.
14 And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have spoken it and performed it, saith Jehovah.

Joel 2:28 (ASV)
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

As a result of God’s love and mercy all nations will come and worship before the feet of Jesus in His kingdom; which He will set up in Jerusalem.

Psalms 86:9 (ASV)
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify thy name.

Isaiah 2:2-4 (ASV)
2 And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
4 And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Now there will be those; and I believe it will be just a few who will still reject God’s gracious gift of eternal life. God will not force people to receive His Holy Spirit if they refuse it. God will not force anyone that does not want to become His son and the blessings of inheriting everything that He owns….those that knowingly reject His gift will be cast into the lake of fire. They will be burnt up….they will cease to exist. Contrary to what many Christians believe God will not torcher sinners in hell forever. Unrepentant sinners are not promise life without end in hell. The wages of sin is death, not spiritual death; they were already spiritually dead. Now, when they are cast into hell (fire) they will be burnt up. The ultimate separation from God is to be removed from existence….all life comes from God and belongs to Him, so He will remove or separate them from existence.

Revelation 20:14-15 (ASV)
14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
God will destroy both soul (psucho) and body in Hell
Matthew 10:28 (ASV)
28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

No one will live forever in an ever burning hell….the Bible says the wicked will go into eternal punishment. Notice that it does not say, “eternal punishing” but eternal punishment. The punishment not only will be final and irreversible, but nothing about them will ever be remembered….it will be as if they had never existed.

Matthew 25:46 (ASV)
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

What does the word that is translated Eternal means?

Eternal:
Greek Word: αἰώνιος
Transliteration: aiōnios
Phonetic Pronunciation: ahee-o'-nee-os
Root: from <G165>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:208,31
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Eternal, Everlasting



from <G165> (aion); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

If you notice that the Greek word that is translated eternal does not only refers to the future but the past as well. The word does not just mean immortal, but means without beginning or end. The word immortal simply means incorruptible. Why do I say this? Because the word that is translated Eternal in Mathew 25:46 is the same Greek word that is used to describe God. God is eternal, meaning He has always existed and will always exist in the future as we know it.

No more past

Isaiah 65:17 (ASV)
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

This is why it is called eternal punishment….time will be erased; like cleaning off what was written on a black board….the past will exist no more which actually mean that the past never existed. The earth and the former things of this world has become something that never was and will never be. The saints will be with God in eternity…where time does not exist.

Even Satan will no longer exist

Ezekiel 28:15-19 (KJV)
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

This is how the ASV reads it…the last part.

Ezekiel 28:19 (ASV)
19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being.

So with this understanding, what should we do as Christians?

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

And if they don’t believe, what should we do?

Matthew 10:14-15 (ASV)
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, as ye go forth out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mark 6:11 (KJV)
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Jesus is saying that one would not be responsible for the unbeliever not hearing the gospel; because they heard it but choose not to accept it. It will be much easier for Sodom and Gomorrah because there is a greater witness than Lot, which is Jesus, yet they did not repent. Mathew is not saying that they are doomed, but in there Day of Judgment repentance will be harder than those from Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now, we have read all those scriptures, the question is, what does it have to do with me personally? The answer has something to do with the question that the disciples asked Jesus about who was the greatest in the kingdom of God?

Here is Jesus’ answer

Matthew 18:3-4 (ASV)
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

In other words what Jesus is saying is that in order to be called the greatest in the kingdom, we must have a teachable attitude in relation to God’s word. If we insist that what we have always believed is the truth, and I am not changing that, even when the scriptures tells us you’re incorrect, then you not the greatest in the kingdom. In fact, you might not even be in the kingdom, since having a childlike/teachable attitude enables one to enter the kingdom.


So when we are witness to an unbeliever, bare in mind what the scriptures says about the carnal mind, and that only God is able to give the individual a receptive attitude of the gospel….a Christian’s responsibility is to help spread the message regardless whether or not anyone believes.
dennis mann
i thank God that He welcomes any person to Himself and Salvation from sin and salvation unto Godliness, Holiness, Love, Peace with God.

God wants all people to be saved.

if any person is un-saved,,,,,,,,it's not God's fault.

God chooses to save all people who will believe by their free-will

John 3;16.........God loves the whole world's people,,,,,,,,,,,every person

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

not one person, or family or nation or language is left out of God's Salvation.............God will save all people who will believe

Calvinism is wrong



Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain could have gotten saved........if he had wanted to get saved,,,,,,,,,but Cain rebelled against God
BFSmith
QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 07:22 PM) *
i thank God that He welcomes any person to Himself and Salvation from sin and salvation unto Godliness, Holiness, Love, Peace with God.

God wants all people to be saved.


I certainly did not say that God does not want anyone to be saved or the He only wants some people to be saved. The scriptures in that subject/Bible study should be very clear, when one understand fully what God is doing.

QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 07:22 PM) *
if any person is un-saved,,,,,,,,it's not God's fault.


My intention was not to pass blame on God, but to show that no one, absolutely no one can ever repent unless God grants that individual repentance. Can anyone boast that it was their own goodness that caused them to repent? That would be a contradiction, because if we were good, then why would there be a need to repent?

QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 07:22 PM) *
God chooses to save all people who will believe by their free-will


And that will, has to be imparted by God.

QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 07:22 PM) *
John 3;16.........God loves the whole world's people,,,,,,,,,,,every person


Yes that's true, but that still does not mean that one can repent on their own.

QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 07:22 PM) *
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

not one person, or family or nation or language is left out of God's Salvation.............God will save all people who will believe

Calvinism is wrong


I did not say anyone did....I would like for you to go back and read very carefully what I post. I believe you are letting your emotion get in the way of understanding what the scriptures that's there says...in fact I believe that you are ignoring those scriptures entirely.

What is Calvinism by the way, this is new to me? I would like to say that we should stop putting negative labels on people because it only helps to prevent some form looking at the truth for fear of being labeled. It is good enough just to say I disagree.
researcher
QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 04:22 PM) *
i thank God that He welcomes any person to Himself and Salvation from sin and salvation unto Godliness, Holiness, Love, Peace with God.
God wants all people to be saved.
if any person is un-saved,,,,,,,,it's not God's fault.
God chooses to save all people who will believe by their free-will
John 3;16.........God loves the whole world's people,,,,,,,,,,,every person
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
not one person, or family or nation or language is left out of God's Salvation.............God will save all people who will believe
Calvinism is wrong
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain could have gotten saved........if he had wanted to get saved,,,,,,,,,but Cain rebelled against God


Which means, everyone will be saved, apparently, lol

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 45:23 By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Everyone will confess with their mouths and believe that Jesus is Lord. Lol. Guess it turns out better than we thought! biggrin.gif
Humble Bob
QUOTE (researcher @ Sep 2 2008, 09:07 PM) *
QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 04:22 PM) *
i thank God that He welcomes any person to Himself and Salvation from sin and salvation unto Godliness, Holiness, Love, Peace with God.
God wants all people to be saved.
if any person is un-saved,,,,,,,,it's not God's fault.
God chooses to save all people who will believe by their free-will
John 3;16.........God loves the whole world's people,,,,,,,,,,,every person
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
not one person, or family or nation or language is left out of God's Salvation.............God will save all people who will believe
Calvinism is wrong
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain could have gotten saved........if he had wanted to get saved,,,,,,,,,but Cain rebelled against God


Which means, everyone will be saved, apparently, lol

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 45:23 By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Everyone will confess with their mouths and believe that Jesus is Lord. Lol. Guess it turns out better than we thought! biggrin.gif


I agree. Everyone is saved. Christ came to save the world and undo the devils work. smile.gif
researcher
QUOTE (Humble Bob @ Sep 2 2008, 06:14 PM) *
QUOTE (researcher @ Sep 2 2008, 09:07 PM) *
QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 04:22 PM) *
i thank God that He welcomes any person to Himself and Salvation from sin and salvation unto Godliness, Holiness, Love, Peace with God.
God wants all people to be saved.
if any person is un-saved,,,,,,,,it's not God's fault.
God chooses to save all people who will believe by their free-will
John 3;16.........God loves the whole world's people,,,,,,,,,,,every person
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
not one person, or family or nation or language is left out of God's Salvation.............God will save all people who will believe
Calvinism is wrong
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain could have gotten saved........if he had wanted to get saved,,,,,,,,,but Cain rebelled against God


Which means, everyone will be saved, apparently, lol

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 45:23 By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Everyone will confess with their mouths and believe that Jesus is Lord. Lol. Guess it turns out better than we thought! biggrin.gif


I agree. Everyone is saved. Christ came to save the world and undo the devils work. smile.gif



I'm ok with that! biggrin.gif
dennis mann
God does not grant repentance ...........He calls all people to belief and repentance and salvation, RIGHT NOW

if a person decides to believe,,,,,,,,that belief is the reason for repentance..........since God commanded us to repent

God wants all people to believe and repent RIGHT NOW, WITHOUT DELAY..........we don't wait for God............God is waiting for us to believe and repent

many people choose to NOT believe,,,,,,,,,because they love the pleasures of sin, more than they love Love, Righteousness, Humility, Helpfulness, Gentleness, Kindness, patience, Forgiveness, Wisdom, etc

even the worst sinner will blush red,,,,,,,,when he's caught in a sin/crime........
the sinner is ashamed of his evil,,,,,,,,and he can believe and repent anytime he wants to.

the sinner does evil in the nite, when we can't see his evil

the Saint does his Love/Righteousness in the Day, when the world can see our Godly behavior,,,,,,,,the Saint has nothing to hide.........the Saint wants to "let his light shine, so that God will be glorified".


if a sinner wants to rob the bank,,,,,,,,he waits until the cops are gone down the street,,,,,,,,,,,,the sinner is fully capable of controlling his impulses..........he believes or dis-believes,,,,,,,,whenever he wants to


if we're waiting for God to grant repentance to the sinner,,,,,,,,,why doesn't God grant repentance to all sinners RIGHT NOW?............God is not partial

He does not save one person and reject another, for random reasons
BFSmith
QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 08:19 PM) *
God does not grant repentance ...........He calls all people to belief and repentance and salvation, RIGHT NOW


Well you don't believe He does, then take a look at this.


2 Timothy 2:25 (ESV)
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


Acts 5:31 (NASB95)
31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


This may not be what some of us have been taught in Church, but Christians are supposed to be taught by the scriptures. So whenever there is error in our belief we should be willing to change it to what the scriptures tells us.
damo7




also i would like to add something to this topic and leave something for the op to think about


what made you believe when you heard the word being preached since you can bluntly state that its god who draws men to repantance ?





John 1 English standard version


1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God


2 He was in the beginning with God

3 All things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made

4 In him was life and the life was the light of men



John 17 English standard version


2 since you have given him all authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him

3 And this eternal life that they know you the only true god and jesus christ whom you have sent


6 I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world yours they were and you gave them to me and they have kept your word

7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you

8 For i have given them the words that you gave me and they received them and have come to know in the truth that i came from you and they have believed that you sent me


what made you BF SMITH believe remember the disciples had christ we have our bibles the disciples could have rejected christ and not believed that he was the son of god

also why did the jews reject the living word when they heard the word preached in their own language why did they harden their hearts towards jesus and refues to believe was it jesus father hardening their hearts like he did with pharoh when moses was asked to go to pharoh and tell pharoh to let my people go ? how many times did moses come before pharoh and ask pharoh to let his people go ?

what was god trying to teach moses ?


the word was origonally meant for the jews though the jews rejected what christ had to say so who did christ focus on ?


the reason the unbeliver does not believe is so simple that a blind man could tell you

look at how some christians carry on today look at how some question if you are a true christian

i tried to pressent what i pointed out to you in my own language and a member decides to poke fun at what i had layed out its as if the word can only be pressented to those who speak english yet if we were to have the bible in its origonal language i wonder how many would be able to under stand what jesus was saying to his own people

all i see hear is the op playing chess with his favorite scripture passages he makes one move you make the next move and if he agrees with you he will say i agree but if he disagrees he will also let you know

may be i should start ussing my trump cards

BF SMITH needs to go over his bible again and this time alow the holy spirit to guide him



God bless from damo


researcher
QUOTE
Why The Unbeliever Does Not Believe?


2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.


Probably sums it up pretty much. smile.gif
BFSmith
QUOTE (researcher @ Sep 2 2008, 11:25 PM) *
QUOTE
Why The Unbeliever Does Not Believe?


2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.


Probably sums it up pretty much. smile.gif


It sure does.
BFSmith
QUOTE (damo7 @ Sep 2 2008, 10:31 PM) *
also i would like to add something to this topic and leave something for the op to think about


what made you believe when you heard the word being preached since you can bluntly state that its god who draws men to repantance ?





John 1 English standard version


1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God


2 He was in the beginning with God

3 All things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made

4 In him was life and the life was the light of men



John 17 English standard version


2 since you have given him all authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him

3 And this eternal life that they know you the only true god and jesus christ whom you have sent


6 I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world yours they were and you gave them to me and they have kept your word

7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you

8 For i have given them the words that you gave me and they received them and have come to know in the truth that i came from you and they have believed that you sent me


what made you BF SMITH believe remember the disciples had christ we have our bibles the disciples could have rejected christ and not believed that he was the son of god

also why did the jews reject the living word when they heard the word preached in their own language why did they harden their hearts towards jesus and refues to believe was it jesus father hardening their hearts like he did with pharoh when moses was asked to go to pharoh and tell pharoh to let my people go ? how many times did moses come before pharoh and ask pharoh to let his people go ?

what was god trying to teach moses ?


the word was origonally meant for the jews though the jews rejected what christ had to say so who did christ focus on ?


the reason the unbeliver does not believe is so simple that a blind man could tell you

look at how some christians carry on today look at how some question if you are a true christian

i tried to pressent what i pointed out to you in my own language and a member decides to poke fun at what i had layed out its as if the word can only be pressented to those who speak english yet if we were to have the bible in its origonal language i wonder how many would be able to under stand what jesus was saying to his own people

all i see hear is the op playing chess with his favorite scripture passages he makes one move you make the next move and if he agrees with you he will say i agree but if he disagrees he will also let you know

may be i should start ussing my trump cards

BF SMITH needs to go over his bible again and this time alow the holy spirit to guide him



God bless from damo


The scriptures that is in that study is very clear, so it's up to you to accept them or reject them; the choice is yours, so I'm not going to argue with you.
damo7
QUOTE (BFSmith @ Sep 2 2008, 10:47 PM) *
QUOTE (damo7 @ Sep 2 2008, 10:31 PM) *
also i would like to add something to this topic and leave something for the op to think about


what made you believe when you heard the word being preached since you can bluntly state that its god who draws men to repantance ?





John 1 English standard version


1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God


2 He was in the beginning with God

3 All things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made

4 In him was life and the life was the light of men



John 17 English standard version


2 since you have given him all authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him

3 And this eternal life that they know you the only true god and jesus christ whom you have sent


6 I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world yours they were and you gave them to me and they have kept your word

7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you

8 For i have given them the words that you gave me and they received them and have come to know in the truth that i came from you and they have believed that you sent me


what made you BF SMITH believe remember the disciples had christ we have our bibles the disciples could have rejected christ and not believed that he was the son of god

also why did the jews reject the living word when they heard the word preached in their own language why did they harden their hearts towards jesus and refues to believe was it jesus father hardening their hearts like he did with pharoh when moses was asked to go to pharoh and tell pharoh to let my people go ? how many times did moses come before pharoh and ask pharoh to let his people go ?

what was god trying to teach moses ?


the word was origonally meant for the jews though the jews rejected what christ had to say so who did christ focus on ?


the reason the unbeliver does not believe is so simple that a blind man could tell you

look at how some christians carry on today look at how some question if you are a true christian

i tried to pressent what i pointed out to you in my own language and a member decides to poke fun at what i had layed out its as if the word can only be pressented to those who speak english yet if we were to have the bible in its origonal language i wonder how many would be able to under stand what jesus was saying to his own people

all i see hear is the op playing chess with his favorite scripture passages he makes one move you make the next move and if he agrees with you he will say i agree but if he disagrees he will also let you know

may be i should start ussing my trump cards

BF SMITH needs to go over his bible again and this time alow the holy spirit to guide him



God bless from damo


The scriptures that is in that study is very clear, so it's up to you to accept them or reject them; the choice is yours, so I'm not going to argue with you.



but why are you disagreeing with some of the other members i have been going over the bible study you have pressented also you pressented this from the kings james version i had to have my bible next to me as i noticed when it comes to the kings james version many seem to think its one of the accurate verssions that has ever been pressented


i believe in gods word i also have gods spirit guiding me


remember they had jesus 24 / 7 we have our bibles


these were unlearned men paul was the only educated apostle among them but paul preached from the old testament


what i was wanting answered is this why was the word rejected by the jews ? was it god hardening their hearts or were the jews just not wanting to hear what the word had to say to them ?

this was not meant for us but who did christ turn to when his own rejected him ?


thats right the choice is mine i took my time and went over the study you pressented and tend not to agree with it



i have been watching this program for some time it comes on the Australian christian channel its called jewls its a jewish christian program the pressentors are jewish and i find it very intresting to what they have to say concerning what i pointed out

jesus came no to condem the world



John 3 English standard version


6 what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit


15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life

16 for this is how god loved the world he gave his unique son so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life


17 for god sent the son into the world not to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through him


18 whoever does believe in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe has already been condemned because he has not believed in the name of gods unique son


those that love the darkness cant stand the light but those that love the light can stand the light


i bet you when you were hearing the gospel preached for the first time your flesh was finding it very hard to accept what the preacher was saying ?

when you sat in the church or were ever you heard the gospel preached i wonder what was going threw your mind

did you want to leave due to the flesh being so uncomfterbal to were it could not accept what the word was saying to you ?


we have a free will and jesus does not force him self on us nor does the holy spirit jesus weights patiently and its the same with the holy spirit


who knows the mind of a man except that mans spirit its the same who knows the mind of god except god


hay thanks for the study it has at least shown me what is being pressented its just another doctrine



God bless from damo
sainte
So are the unbelievers condemned in the end, or just the wicked?
damo7




you wil just have to allow the holy spirit to guide you god does not want no one to perish he gives us a choice if we choose not to believe i feel those who refuse will get a second chance and if they refues then they will be condemned

its the same warning christ gave about blasphmy



Matthew 12 English standard version



31 so i tell you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven


you will only get one chance and if you choose to reject him the book of revelations tells us where those people will be sent


you need to read your bible and not listen to doctrines or bible studys done by men as it says to test the spirits and never go in blind



God bless from damo



sainte
Ah, I see the answer: John 3:18.

So if the unbeliever is condemned, what does condemned mean? Is it condemned to the death?

It is given once for a man to die, and then judgement. What does judgement mean?

All judgement is given unto the Son - both in Heaven and in Earth. And we know that the Sons judgement is mercy. Life.

The Jews who didn't believe weren't condemned to eternal death, were they? Just the death of this world, diaspora, dispersion, shattering of dreams; loss. Physical death without knowing Christ. But perhaps this is a bad example. I noticed that some of the scriptures the original author used pertained to the Jews, and they are a different case;

Twelve were choosen, but one a Judas, a devil. And that devil believed, or wanted too. But like Paul said, maybe it is a worse thing to have beleived, and then turn back; and certainly if one causes 'one of these little ones to stumble', it be better for that man to have not been born.

But the skeptic is lost forever? written off? or still valued, like an independent voter, he just doesn't know, and so he stays his course hoping for the best - but the good guys still want him bad.

Is it like the Baptists say, if you don't receive Christ you are lost? What does lost mean? Gone forever? or lost in the wilderness like the above mentioned Jews - without a compass, without a true home. And if so, is physical death the final deciding point? or did Christ transcend death? And if so, does his judgement apply on both sides of the line.

Kind of opens up the possibility of the original doctrine (and it was a doctrine, not an idea) of purgatory doesn't it? Quite a conundrum you people have opened up, at least in my mind, as I struggle with this; finally:

Why does the bible say, Christ died for the sin, singular, of the world?

Is the unbeliever or one who doesn't know (there is another thread on this) condemned to the death eternally? or until he or she fully believes? be it this life or the next. Wondering. And should we even ask these questions, I don't know.

But I do know this: Appologetics is not 'defense of the gospel', it is MERCY toward unbelievers. Have mercy.

Could it be that the wicked, the unjust (unjust is not unbelief is it) the treacherous, the lovers of death; are given when all is said and done, what they have themselves chosen?
sainte
I think I agree with you Damo, forgive my meandering - How are things on the far side of the world? I'm in the US. Is the church ok there? We had a questionable loss, and I am trying to come to grips a little bit. The Lord is working on me, and slowly showing me that his mercy - lasts forever. In other words, he seems to be telling me, although this person was not in the best spiritual shape, it's alright, don't worry. I shunned all things catholic before, I am protestant, but the Lord has been leading me to release my fears into his magnificent hands, amen.
dennis mann
QUOTE (BFSmith @ Sep 2 2008, 09:22 PM) *
QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 08:19 PM) *
God does not grant repentance ...........He calls all people to belief and repentance and salvation, RIGHT NOW


Well you don't believe He does, then take a look at this.


2 Timothy 2:25 (ESV)
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


Acts 5:31 (NASB95)
31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


This may not be what some of us have been taught in Church, but Christians are supposed to be taught by the scriptures. So whenever there is error in our belief we should be willing to change it to what the scriptures tells us.




i think you may be claiming that :

Today is not the day of salvation,,,,,,,,because we must wait for a future day, when God will allow us to be saved.




2 Timothy 2;24.....AMPLIFIED BIBLE

24And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.

25He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],

26And that they may come to their senses [and] escape out of the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him, [henceforth] to do His [God's] will



the above-described people were snared by satan,,,,,



2 Corinthians 6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



2 Corinthians 6
1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)



Today is the day of salvation.............god is waiting for us to believe and repent...........we are not waiting for God to do anything,,,,,,,,,,He has already done everything that we need for salvation


don't wait for tomorrow to get saved..........tomorrow, we may all be dead
THE SEVEN THUNDERS
QUOTE (BFSmith @ Sep 2 2008, 06:49 PM) *
Now, we have read all those scriptures, the question is, what does it have to do with me personally? The answer has something to do with the question that the disciples asked Jesus about who was the greatest in the kingdom of God?

Here is Jesus’ answer

Matthew 18:3-4 (ASV)
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
In other words what Jesus is saying is that in order to be called the greatest in the kingdom, we must have a teachable attitude in relation to God’s word. If we insist that what we have always believed is the truth, and I am not changing that, even when the scriptures tells us you’re incorrect, then you not the greatest in the kingdom. In fact, you might not even be in the kingdom, since having a childlike/teachable attitude enables one to enter the kingdom.





Unfortunately, many Christians do not understand this concept of the “child”. I have witnessed an excess of many Christians allowing their egos and pride to get the better of them, puffing themselves with belligerence, self-righteousness, and an attitude of superiority to strike out in retaliation, particularly those who refuse to admit when they’re obviously wrong, as one poster just demonstratively exhibited on this very thread.

My understanding is that “to be as a child” is not merely obedience, pliability, willingness, and eagerness towards Father God, but it also has to do with complete and total “selflessness”--- having NO EGO. Like when a child sees his/her reflection in a mirror for the very first time and actually believes that the self-reflection is that of another being separate from him/her self. This is being “dead to the self”. I call it the “State of the Eternal Child”. It is a state that is NOT self-seeking. It is a state where one forgets about themselves, their ego, abandoning it, and is transfixed on others and the world around and outside them, just as a child whose self-identity is still yet being fashioned. But most paramount it is a state where one is focused upon Christ, Himself, being “Christ-Focused” or “Christocentric” while abandoning one’s self. It is when we step outside the self that God can finally enter into us. Also, to be in the State of the Eternal Child is simultaneously to be in a “state of powerlessness” rejecting our own strength; and consequently this allows God to empower us with “True Power”, not self-seeking power as the world promises, for True Power, just as “True Love”, is NOT self-seeking. It is when we are powerless is when God becomes our True Power. These are all the amazing supernatural benefits if one merely “becomes like a child” and steps into the State of the Eternal Child. I think this is what Christ was really referring to in His analogy of the “child”. But of course, silly self-absorbed egotistical adults just don’t get it, and they wonder why their lives are like a rancid bog of anguish, despair and turmoil. Yet, Christ prefaced His statement regarding "the child"... that in order "to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" one needs to be as a child--- I believe He was not merely speaking of literal Heaven, but also the calm "Eye of the Storm", a protected place, a "State of Heaven" while we are yet living on Earth. This is what many are missing, for they lack understanding.

-7


dennis mann
Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.


i think i just had an Epiphany.

Jesus told us to be like "little children".............what does that mean?

we are the children............God is the Parent............we learn from Him............it is His job to train us to be adults..........maturity is the goal


He makes the rules.........we obey the rules

He provides for us..........we love Him, with increasing love

He is our SPIRITUAL FATHER............we are His SPIRITUAL CHILDREN

we live as He lives........we talk like He talks..........we walk as He walks

like Father, like son
damo7
QUOTE (sainte @ Sep 3 2008, 02:56 AM) *
I think I agree with you Damo, forgive my meandering - How are things on the far side of the world? I'm in the US. Is the church ok there? We had a questionable loss, and I am trying to come to grips a little bit. The Lord is working on me, and slowly showing me that his mercy - lasts forever. In other words, he seems to be telling me, although this person was not in the best spiritual shape, it's alright, don't worry. I shunned all things catholic before, I am protestant, but the Lord has been leading me to release my fears into his magnificent hands, amen.




high sainte

i am ok our church in australia is going threw changes and its the same with my fiancee churches in the philippines


just let god lead you i know exactly were you are comming from as i was their my self when i was young


right know i am raising funds for our church that got destroyed when the typhoon turned that ship over in the philippines and peoples lives were lost


that is why i said to you stick to your bible and let the holy spirit guide you



God bless from damo
BFSmith
QUOTE (THE SEVEN THUNDERS @ Sep 3 2008, 05:57 AM) *
QUOTE (BFSmith @ Sep 2 2008, 06:49 PM) *
Now, we have read all those scriptures, the question is, what does it have to do with me personally? The answer has something to do with the question that the disciples asked Jesus about who was the greatest in the kingdom of God?

Here is Jesus’ answer

Matthew 18:3-4 (ASV)
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
In other words what Jesus is saying is that in order to be called the greatest in the kingdom, we must have a teachable attitude in relation to God’s word. If we insist that what we have always believed is the truth, and I am not changing that, even when the scriptures tells us you’re incorrect, then you not the greatest in the kingdom. In fact, you might not even be in the kingdom, since having a childlike/teachable attitude enables one to enter the kingdom.





Unfortunately, many Christians do not understand this concept of the “child”. I have witnessed an excess of many Christians allowing their egos and pride to get the better of them, puffing themselves with belligerence, self-righteousness, and an attitude of superiority to strike out in retaliation, particularly those who refuse to admit when they’re obviously wrong, as one poster just demonstratively exhibited on this very thread.

My understanding is that “to be as a child” is not merely obedience, pliability, willingness, and eagerness towards Father God, but it also has to do with complete and total “selflessness”--- having NO EGO. Like when a child sees his/her reflection in a mirror for the very first time and actually believes that the self-reflection is that of another being separate from him/her self. This is being “dead to the self”. I call it the “State of the Eternal Child”. It is a state that is NOT self-seeking. It is a state where one forgets about themselves, their ego, abandoning it, and is transfixed on others and the world around and outside them, just as a child whose self-identity is still yet being fashioned. But most paramount it is a state where one is focused upon Christ, Himself, being “Christ-Focused” or “Christocentric” while abandoning one’s self. It is when we step outside the self that God can finally enter into us. Also, to be in the State of the Eternal Child is simultaneously to be in a “state of powerlessness” rejecting our own strength; and consequently this allows God to empower us with “True Power”, not self-seeking power as the world promises, for True Power, just as “True Love”, is NOT self-seeking. It is when we are powerless is when God becomes our True Power. These are all the amazing supernatural benefits if one merely “becomes like a child” and steps into the State of the Eternal Child. I think this is what Christ was really referring to in His analogy of the “child”. But of course, silly self-absorbed egotistical adults just don’t get it, and they wonder why their lives are like a rancid bog of anguish, despair and turmoil. Yet, Christ prefaced His statement regarding "the child"... that in order "to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" one needs to be as a child--- I believe He was not merely speaking of literal Heaven, but also the calm "Eye of the Storm", a protected place, a "State of Heaven" while we are yet living on Earth. This is what many are missing, for they lack understanding.

-7



Thank God that you have eyes to see....very good, you have spoken the truth.
BFSmith
QUOTE (Humble Bob @ Sep 2 2008, 08:14 PM) *
QUOTE (researcher @ Sep 2 2008, 09:07 PM) *
QUOTE (dennis mann @ Sep 2 2008, 04:22 PM) *
i thank God that He welcomes any person to Himself and Salvation from sin and salvation unto Godliness, Holiness, Love, Peace with God.
God wants all people to be saved.
if any person is un-saved,,,,,,,,it's not God's fault.
God chooses to save all people who will believe by their free-will
John 3;16.........God loves the whole world's people,,,,,,,,,,,every person
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
not one person, or family or nation or language is left out of God's Salvation.............God will save all people who will believe
Calvinism is wrong
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain could have gotten saved........if he had wanted to get saved,,,,,,,,,but Cain rebelled against God


Which means, everyone will be saved, apparently, lol

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 45:23 By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Everyone will confess with their mouths and believe that Jesus is Lord. Lol. Guess it turns out better than we thought! biggrin.gif


I agree. Everyone is saved. Christ came to save the world and undo the devils work. smile.gif



Jesus' death paid the price for every single human being, all that they need to do is reach out and accept that sacrifice, but they cannot untill God grant them repentance. The day is coming when all nations will (this does not mean that every single person will, but as a whole nations will) seek God and desire Him to teach then His ways.

Isaiah 2:2-4 (ASV)
2 And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
4 And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mountain’s house, is talking about the saints who will rule over the nations from Jerusalem. God knows what He is doing; He is taking out a special and peculiar people (Christians), for Himself from all over the world, from various nations then at Jesus' return He will used these same people to teach the nations. The scripture says we will be kings and priest…we will have both a political and a religious office.

Revelation 5:8-10 (MontgomeryNT)
8 When he took the book, the four Living Creatures and the four and twenty Elders fell down before the Lamb. And each had a harp and a golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 8 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art thou to take the book And to open its seals; Revelation 5:9 For thou wast slain and didst ransom for God Men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation; 9
10 Thou hast made them kings and priests unto our God, And they shall reign on earth."

The early Church knew that one day they will reign/rule.

1 Corinthians 4:8 (Darby)
8 Already ye are filled; already ye have been enriched; ye have reigned without us; and I would that ye reigned, that we also might reign with you.
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