Brother Jake

Romans 3v 22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

what is the righteousness of God?
what is belief?
what redeemed us since all have sinned?
what is Grace?



there are many people who believe because they are under grace they can still sin. Many people!! this is the doctrine of the Protestant churches.

what is the bible definition of Love?
what is the bible definition of sin?
what is faith?

Rom 5v
18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

what is the offense?
what is the judgment?
what is the condemnation?
what was the righteousness of one?
what is the free gift?
what is the justification of Life?



I don't get that from Rom 5v18 verse!!

before anyone can understand Grace these questions have to be answered and more.




only if you continue in his word!!!

Jn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Faith, grace and love, many have erroneously used these three words to exempt themselves of any real responsibility to God. They have shared such axioms as "…all you need is faith"; "since we have grace we don’t have to keep the law…" and "we are under the law of love." The following three scriptures prove however, that without actions these words are empty and hollow.

"But wilt thou know oh vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20)
"We… beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." (II Corinthians 6:1)
"If you love me, keep my commandments." (John14:15)

Hi Ozell,

Blessings to you and the family.

Softly, what do you get out of Romans 5:18? This is the crux of my question, which pertains to the cross of calvary.

Firstly and sadly, many will be lost, yet that does not deny the facts of scripture. We are to procliam the "gospel", not our own theory of scripture. ... There is ONLY ONE GOSPEL.

The Young's Literal Translation is very good in these verses, ACCORDING to the original language.

Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to ALL men to justification of life;

Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

BEFORE you accepted Christ Jesus why and how was your existence (life) "justified?" Is there any reason for your "justification" to even live dear brother? Verse 18 of Romans 5 is speaking of an "objective" justification "IN CHRIST" for ALL MEN. Where does it say, "for only those who believe?" ALL MEN means ALL MEN!

Now then, verse 19 of Romans 5 is speaking of a "subjective" experience. Those who really "believe" will be consituted "righteous." TAKE NOTE! VERSE 18 states "THE MANY." Justified "objectiviey in Christ." VERSE 19 states "MANY" without "the" in front. .... Hence, "THE many" (vs. 18), will be justified objectively in CHRIST. That means ALL MEN, not just those who believe. Again, vs. 19 states "MANY" with the "THE", if you will.

Romans 5:18 uses the word "JUSTIFICATION" and means "acquittal" (dikaiosis). FOR ALL MEN. .... Romans 5:19 uses the word "RIGHTEOUS" meaning "holy" (dikaios), "many" will be MADE (consituted) HOLY." If you notice, Romans 5:18 does not use the word "MADE." Verse 18 does not make anyone holy, but GRACE does acquit "ALL MEN."

Did Christ Jesus fail to be everyone's Savior? Or was HE successful? " ... we trust in the living God, who IS the 'Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10.

Let's "dig" for truth and share the BETTER GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL! After all, there is only ONE GOSPEL.

It is true when Adam sinned all were condemned according to Romans 5, yet Christ Jesus reversed that condemnation, officially, when He died on the cross.

The judgement will reveal the fact that Christ GAVE salvation to ALL MEN. Yet sadly, many reject the salvation He gave to all men. "For the grace of God has appeared BRINGING SALVATION to ALL MEN. Titus 2:11.

Jesus condemns no man, WE condemn ourselves with our own words and actions when we do not believe. "For God sent not his Son into the world to 'condemn' the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. .... And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (Jn 3:17; Jn 12:47).

The Bible definition of love is the keeping of the commandments. Those who do keep the commandments will be "made holy" and those who don't will be judged by their own words and suffer eternal damnation, they will "perish" according to scripture.

Romans 5:18. --- Does this verse state "all men" are justified, OR does this verse state only those who believe are justified?

Should we not be "elated" in our hearts that Christ is not a respector of persons and He loves everyone? OR will we go to heaven and stand up to Christ and say, "I accepted you Jesus, I did what I needed to do. I said yes to you, I was a commandment keeper, I "justified MY-SELF" by accepting. Thanks for the cross Jesus, but it really was ONLY AN OFFER, NOT A GIFT GIVEN! .... Where in scripture is "salvation" an "offer." ... If a car salesman "offers" you a car, you have to give him something in return. When Christ gives us a gift, we just need to say "YES." The word "believe" is not some kind of "cheap" word in the Bible, unless you allow satan to steal the true meaning!

The Pharisees supposedly were meticulous commandment keepers, they boasted of the same all too often. The worked hard at it! They said to Jesus, "What shall we DO, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him, whom He hath sent." John 6:28:29. In other words, what a silly notion that we can do God's work. "For it is God which worketh in you to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil. 2:13.

To "believe" is only a cheap word to those who do not have faith. Faith and to believe is actually the same word in the original (pistis). For God so loved the world that He gave His son, whoever believes [has faith] will have eternal life." It always befuddles me when so many are antagonistic regarding the word "BELIEVE." Let's not satan steal the true meaning of "belief." .... It is never, "justification by faith" PLUS WORKS. It is "justification by faith" WHICH works. "NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:9.

blessings in Christ,
Jake

Hi Ozell,

Regarding Romans 3:22 --

"Even the righteousness of God which is by 'faith OF Jesus Christ." This phrase does not state "faith IN Jesus Christ."

Christ's FAITH is spoken of, NOT our faith. For example, Galatians 2:16. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the 'faith OF Jesus Christ', even we have believed IN Jesus Christ ..." .... Here again we have "justification by the faith OF Jesus, THEN we have "justification by FAITH" for those who believe.

Let us rightly divide the word of God, which often is in total contradiction to our traditions.

Back to Romans 3:22 --

All righteousness comes by the "faith OF Jesus." Upon who? "UNTO ALL" .... and upon ALL that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God, [the all who sinned] are BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY by His GRACE through the rredemption that is in Christ Jesus" All who sinned are being justified freely.

The whole human race was declared innocent at the cross, objectively, in Christ.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:19.

Is this not the message of God to the world? .... Is not our message to "all men" to proclaim that God is NOT imputing their trespasses unto them? IF when proclaiming this beautiful message do we fear that they might go on sinning? I suppose so, but that does not negate the work of the Holy Spirit does it? I know for a fact looking back in my childhood the Holy Spirit was always convicting me of sin. Does He do the same for all men? Yes, absolutely yes. .... The cross of calvary, Christ's message of the Good News is NOT CHEAP GRACE. HE ALWAYS CONVICTS THE "LAW" BREAKER!

YES, let us preach the commandments of God, BUT, if it's not in the context of the GOSPEL then it BECOMES WORKS, NOT GRACE. The commandments are GRACE, they are "ten promises." When we see Christ hanging on the cross, We see, "thou shalt not steal" as God's glorious promise to keep us from the same! Jesus says, "I took the curse for you, I kept my Father's commandments, trust in Me, have faith in Me, and you shall not "commit adultery."

blessings in Christ,
Jake

Hi Brother Jake

Peace in Jesus name to you and your family.

what I understand from verse 18 is this

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



There is no justification on why I should live? NO

Rom 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

what I understand here is the righteousness of one(Jesus) his (free gift) blood or grace came upon all men for a (Justification)reason of life.




19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Paul also said in the same chapter above and in a earlier chapter all men have sinned

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



all men are acquitted by the free gift(grace) what is grace? what is the free gift?


Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
many shall be made righteous. when are the many made righteous? at Jesus coming

Mt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Did Christ Jesus fail to be everyone's Savior? Or was HE successful? " ... we trust in the living God, who IS the 'Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10.

10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



all men!!


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

it is our past sins that the blood covers.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;




keeping the commandments is not about justifying oneself, keeping the commandments is about obedience.

does God really love everyone? It is written

Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Ps 119:163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.



The Lord said do as the Pharisees say but not as they do.


John 6v28-34
28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Here is what you are to believe

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

what are some of the words out of Jesus mouth?

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

and

Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20: The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

should we believe these words from Jesus own mouth?

keeping the commandments is not a justification for life it is a requirement for eternal life and love.



Brother Jake

the problem here is that the people are taught wrong concerning works.

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jms 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

there is a Godly understanding of works and there is a false teaching of works.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

what Law is Paul talking about here?

we are Justified by many things?


Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul uses might be when it comes to faith.

Lk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.



22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Faith came unto all men, but all men don't have to believe.




innocent of what?

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

what if you commit a sinful act after the knowledge of the truth?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?




what is grace brother Jake?
what did the blood of Jesus give all men?
what was the purpose of the cross of Calvary?

Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:




Jms 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jms 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jms 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Amen, the Spirit was given to the prophets and a few individuals in the OT but today it is freely given to ALL who will repent and accept Jesus as Saviour and Lord over their lives.

Great post!

Grace is the free gift that God gave to all men.

Before Adam sinned the grace was here.

Rv 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus said to the Father

Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus was here!! before man before the creation of the world.

The Father said

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

here it is again and again and again.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The free gift is Jesus

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Hi Ozell,

You asked, 1. "What is grace?"

Neither one of us want to argue against grace. In some eyes, "grace" is only given to the obedient. An egocentric-faith, if you will. .... In other words, those who talk of "their faith" and "obedience" to God must have faith. That is true dear sir. But if one keeps on talking about humanity's faith and not God's, they are essentially, slowly and subtley taking away God's MAIN MESSAGE TO THE WORLD, the faith OF Jesus. Those who have the "faith OF Jesus" will "keep the commandments of God." Rev. 14:12.

Notice, firstly and foremost it's "faith OF Jesus", not "faith IN Jesus." Faith IN Jesus is a by product of UNDERSTANDING CHRIST's FAITH, then, and ony then, do we have faith IN Jesus." In other words, Christ's faith is to be foremost, our faith is simply His faith. After all, He is the AUTHOR AND FINISHER of our faith.

We may MISS the all important theme of the Bible by procalaiming what WE NEED TO DO, INSTEAD OF PROCLAIMING WHAT HE HAS DONE! When we are melted and truly comforted by this message, then we WILL keep (cherish) His 10 promises (commandments).

But you are hesitant to talk of "Christ's FAITH." ... I understand, a new concept. A selfless, non egocentric faith must be the center, not based on man's faith, but God's, which is based on WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED FOR MANKIND. IS THAT NOT what Paul proclaimed? "FOR I DETERMINED NOT TO KNOW ANYTHING AMONGST YOU, EXCEPT CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED."

Now then, if you go back to keeping the commandments, that's fine, and all well, good, and holy. BUT ONLY THE CROSS WILL ALLOW YOU TO KEEP ANY COMMANDMENT!

Your main theme and line of argument is the "keeping the commandments." My line of thinking, according to the scripture is the CROSS-- which gives you the POWER to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

The subject "FAITH OF JESUS" and "FAITH IN JESUS", according to scripture, seems obviously NEW to you dear sir. I can send you more evidence if you're interested in the new concept of "WHAT CHRIST ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS and WHAT CHRIST WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH IN YOUR LIFE AS A BELIEVER. A more balanced, biblical message indeed!

I have noticed, you speak very little of JUSTIFICATION and a whole lot on SANCTIFICATION. I speak on "justification" and "sanctification." ONLY THE CROSS, which melts the heart, will give us a sound perspective on JUSTIFICATION, and leads us to a HOLY AND SANCTIFIED LIFE.

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto ALL [that's ALL], and upon ALL them that believe; for ther is NO difference. ... The righteousness of God is unto ALL. IN CHRIST, ALL are righteous. IT IS ONLY IN CHRIST! .... and upon ALL them that BELIEVE. Do you hear the two concepts of the GOSPEL. Righteousness unto ALL .... and upon ALL WHO BELIEVE. There are two ALLS! Justification of life for all men and justification by FAITH for the "believer."

If we simply want to proclaim God's holy law, then we are ONLY PROCLAIMING SIN ALONE! "Moreover, the law entered, that the OFFENCE might ABOUND, But where sin abounded, GRACE did much more abound:" (Romans 5:20). ... "for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20).

Let us remember, the cross procliams "law and grace." How about we proclaim both in the same message?

I know, so redundant, does Paul procliam "justification of life for all men?" OR ... just for the believer? ... May our hearts be melted by the CROSS, then, we can TRULY BE SANCTIFIED.

May we LOVE OUR ENEMIES, NOT PUT THEM DOWN BY THE CALL OF CONTINUOUS JUDGMENT, APART FROM GOD'S GRACE, WHICH CAN ONLY BE THE CROSS! (Romans 5:15-18).

2. What did the blood of Jesus accomplish?

Total righteousness for all sinners. NOT righteousness that MAKES them righteousness, but a righteousness given to them, a free gift of GRACE, IN CHRIST. That's an acquital, a legal righteousness (Romans 5:18; 3:21-24). That does not mean a free trip to heaven regardless of their acts. The true gospel leads to total righteousness. ...

DECLARING one righteous, IN CHRIST, .... and MAKING one righteous are two different things. "Justification of life FOR ALL MEN" is an acquital, Romans 5:18. By the obedience of one shall many be MADE righteous. VS. 19.

3. The purpose of the cross?

That's easy! To eradicate sin in the universe, an end of sin, if you will. ... To save mankind FROM sin, not IN sin! ...
"For this is the covenant that I will make with Israel ... I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. (Hebrews 8:10). You see, this is where we differ Ozell, an end of sin is not accomplished by a set of rules, "obey the commandments." An end of sin is accomplished by a melting of the heart, seeing Jesus "TAKING ... the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us ..." CHRIST HATH REDEEMED"! (Romans 10:10; Gal. 3:13).

Jake

Jake,

Does that mean that you have no need for the Word of God/The Bible?


If you do, what do you need it for?


In His Love,
Suzanne

Grace is simply Yahweh's power and ability. The law came by Moses but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ who is the wisdom of God.

Some have taught that it is God's un-merited favor. But what can that perform?
There is a false God called grace that alleviates one in his mind from all responsibility. A kind of juvenile delinquent excuse for not obeying what is both reasonable and expected.
This form of "grace" has and will continue to contribute to hell's expansion as long as we insist to being left to our own devices.

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is NOT earned or deserved. It is a free gift. It comes to us only because of what Jesus did for us, NOT for what we can do for ourselves or God. We receive grace when we trust Jesus alone for eternal life (this is called faith). If our salvation was based on or upheld by anything for which we can receive any credit for (this is called works), then we can boast.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are righteous in God's eyes only if we have Christ righteousness imputed to us (Romans 10:3-4; Philippians 3:9). We can not add to the righteousness of Christ.

Objection!!! (I see it coming)

Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

What does it mean to do the will of the Father?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The will of the Father is for us to put our trust in His Son alone for our eternal life.

If doing the will of the Father is obeying the commandants, then we would have to do so absolutely perfectly and completely 100% of the time (Isa. 64:6; Gal. 3:6-14; Heb. 10:1-18; James 2:10).

Good morning Brother

This thread is not about arguing, I put it here for study. The Topic s about grace not faith, even though they intertwine the topic is grace. Who's talking about humanities Faith, you and I should be talking about grace. There are faithful Christians out there that believe in Jesus, yet they are taught that the commandments are no more. Those that have a understanding of the commandments are obligated to help those who understanding is limited through false teaching. We of understanding must tell those that the commandments are utmost important in God's plan for our eternal salvation.





There is different levels of faith. Our faith at some time in life will need to be increased by God as was the apostles.

Lk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

The Lord said

6: And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

obey Jesus if we want our faith increased.



what Jesus has done is done. it is our responsibility to do our job so we can become like him.

Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. Jesus said

Rv 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

proclaiming what Jesus has done will not get us in his kingdom. Being Christ like is what we are suppose to BE. Being Christ like requires work on our part. Jesus has showed us the way.

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Solomon wrote

Eccl 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

fear God and keep his commandments is man's duty.



the topic is not faith brother Jake, the topic is of grace.

let's stick to the topic if you want to talk faith lets talk faith as long as it pertain to the topic.

Faith is a topic that is preached in every church, every week, the bible is much more than the topic of faith.



how is that? how can a piece of wood going to allow you to keep the commandments.
what is more important how Jesus died or why he died? do you really want to go here? The cross is a method of death.



people were keeping the commandments before the piece of wood came along brother Jake.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

where's the cross?




I can read in the bible what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Here are a few verses.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Mt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



do you get this view from this topic or the many post I put?

here is justification in the bible 3 verse all in the same book

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

here is sanctification in the bible 5 verse 4 different books

1Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Thes 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

1Thes 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

2Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.





I see a stipulation it is ;

what if you don't believe? that = no faith. yet grace is upon all men even those of no faith.
The faithless keep some form of the law brother Jake. Those that claim they don't believe in Jesus keep the law.

Hindu's, Muslims, and atheist keep some for of the commandments. yet they don't believe in Jesus.

Heck protestants and Catholics believe in Jesus but some don't keep the law and teach man to do like wise.



backup to verse 13

13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

yet we have a law and we still have sin.




how do we love our enemies? with a cross? or by keeping the commandments?



it is written what Jesus blood did

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.





the cross did all this?

or the act upon the cross?

is sin eradicated in the universe brother Jake?

people are still sinning, babies are born into sin brother Jake

what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

people still transgress the law!!!

sin is still in the world

his name is Satan.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

all men includes the different religions and beliefs so it is not just Christians that grace is poured upon it is all men.




what is grace?

what is the free gift?

what is righteousness



what is righteousness?



of course!




Rm 10v

6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

in order to believe one must here about the true Jesus of the bible and not the other Jesus Paul spoke of.

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Jesus speaks of worshiping him in vain so it must be more than just faith in God.

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



where does it say that you have to be absolutely perfect?

Jesus said to Abraham

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

then he said

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham obeyed the will of the Lord.

let's read the verse you put.


Isa 64
1: Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
2: As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!
3: When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
4: For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

God is mad because of there sins?

5: Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

of course we are unclean, even when we keep the commandments, we are flesh, thats why we have to repent and pray even after we accept the Lord.

do you pray? do you ask forgiveness? what are you asking forgiveness for?

6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

the Lord his his face because of there sins, sounds like someone better keep the commandments.

7: And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Gal. 3:6-14

6: Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9: So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

what is just?

11: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12: And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

what law did Jesus redeem us from?

what law is a curse? I pray that you don't think the commandments are a curse?

how did the curse get on the tree?

13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Heb. 10:1-18

what law is Paul talking about here kahuna?

James 2:10

10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

and it is written
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

why is this, when Jesus took away our sins, why do we need Jesus to be a advocate for something he took away?

let's get back to the topic of grace, it is evident there is some here who don't understand the law and grace.

Grace is the blood of Jesus.

this is the free gift,

this is the unmerit favor

this is what all men are under and those that believe will remain under.

2Pt 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

this is another step to salvation.

its more than just faith, faith is a part of the process.

Hi Suzanne,

Many will be lost, but that does not mean God is not a respector of persons. He saved everyone, yet many "reject" that salvation. Do not forget, all through the Bible, SALVATION is in the "past, present and future tense. It's a hard concecpt who think themselves better than anyone who will be lost at last. NEVER have I implied "universal salvation" of "eternal life" for all men. Many will be lost. Again. Many will be lost. What the word of God is stating, Christ did "accomplish" what He said He would do, not that many will "accept" what He did! The scripture is full of "objective" and "subjective" phrases.

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, BUT to SAVE the world." John 12:47.

Do you believe the God of the universe FAILED in His MISSION? Is Jesus a failure? God forbid. "I came not to judge the world, BUT to SAVE the world" John 12:47. Jesus did succeed in His mission of saving the world. WHEN JESUS WAS ON THE CROSS, HE SAID, "IT IS FINISHED"! John 19:30. He did accomplish His mission. Are you not estatic dear believer? OR ... is Jesus only the believer's SAVIOR? That's what the Pharisees belief was, we know that to be true, in their eyes only. .... I know you to be above that belief.

Who really suffers when procliaming the true gospel? .... Who really suffers "reproach?" FEW love the "good news." Many are resistant. "FOR THEREFORE, WE BOTH LABOR AND SUFFER REPROACH, BECAUSE WE TRUST IN THE LIVING GOD, WHO is THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. 1 Tim. 4:10.

Many are "threatened" by the good news, as if this will "excuse" SIN. NOT SO! ALL are convicted of sin, judgment and righteousness. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT? If anyone thinks that God ONLY convicts the believer, then they are "self-righteous" in their approach to the sinner. In other words, "HEY, God is my Savior, but not yours. ... God did not really die for your sins, but for only those who believe. ... But that is contrary to scripture. ...

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours ONLY, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." 1 JOHN:2:2.

What seems to be the most sacred and scandulous thing among Christians is to let the "unbeliever" know that CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF THEM! God forbid we put the sinner, such as Mary caught in adultery as "equal" with the believer! Where is our compassion! Is it simply based in Law or is GRACE ABOVE IT? Does that excuse us from sin or from violating the law?? God forbid, yet the Bible does state, "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound, But where sin abounded, GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND! Romans 5:20.

I am waiting for your compassion, I know you have it, but not yet disclosed.

blessings in Christ,
Jake

Dear Jake,

I believe that you are stating the "obvious" for argument's sake.

Of course Jesus died for all of mankind. No one has disputed that. The discrepancy is that you twist to "imply" that (A) either all will be saved or that B, I have implied that because I am saved, that I somehow look down my nose at one who is not. If that were the case, then there would be no point in my sharing of the gospel....because I would only be satisfied that I am saved....I am not. I long for the joy and victory of Jesus Christ to be realized by as many as will receive the Truth of His Word. THAT is why I share it often, because I KNOW that it is truth, and that it is able to save from destruction.

I am not sure what the purpose of your posting is though? It sounds double-minded as a whole is not clear about salvation.


In His Love,
Suzanne

Hi Ozell,

The apostle Paul may have been wrong, according to the Holy Spirit, the word of God, Christ Himself, "For I determined not to know anything amongst you, except Christ and Him Crucified." .... You stated the "wood." IT's not the wood brother, it's the shed blood! There can be no remission of sins without the blood! Why would anyone aruge against the wood? ... A parodox indeed!

Remember, Christ does not "act" on the cross. He really accomplished His mission. Only the pharisees thought Christ "acted." Christ was not a "hypocrite."

"But woe unto, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! ... (Matthew 23). Hupokrites = ACTOR, STAGE PLAYER.

YES, people are still sinning, that does not mean Jesus did not "free them from sin" (objectively). IN CHRIST. ... Blessings to many sincere belivers in the Roman Catholic Church, but Christ died ONCE for sin, He freed everyone "ONCE" in CHRIST."

IF the sinner ACCEPTS HIS DEATH IN CHRIST, then HE or SHE HAS ACCEPTED HIS OR HER DEATH IN CHRIST. HE OR SHE HAS BEEN FREED IN CHRIST, will they believe the same?

"FOR HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREE [JUSTIFIED] from sin." (Rom. 6:10). Who died, and who is dead?

The following verse IS the GOSPEL! ... Keeping the commandments is the result of heart melting love dear brother.

"For the LOVE of CHRIST CONSTRAINETH US; because we thus judge, that IF ONE died for ALL, the were all DEAD." (2 Cor. 5:14).

ALL DIED! THAT''s what the CROSS OF CHRIST ACCOMPLISHED! IN CHRIST, ALL DIED, YET, the question becomes who wants to accept that death? "And that HE died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him, which died for them, and rose again." (VS. 15).


Speaking softly. Is not the word of God in harmony? Is "grace" opposed to faith? That's what you "seem" to imply. IS not TRUTH ONE? Are you saying when I speak of grace, "faith" does not come into total harmony with "faith" itself? Are you saying that since I talk of faith, grace is not included in the discussion? Is the word of God divided against itself? Are you saying dear brother that grace and faith are not interconected to another?

Who do you think is the "author" of grace?" THE FAITH OF JESUS of course. Rev. 14:12; Gal. 2:16; Romans 3:22. ... Dear brother, I give you Jesus, the author and finisher of grace and faith, you give me arguments against "faith vs. grace." Is that not a losing proposition? Since when can "grace" not be syncronous with "faith"? They are one with another, if not, the Bible is disruptive with itself.

Instead of letting ourselves "divert" each other from the HARMONY of "faith and grace" lets COME into harmony dear brother.

"BY WHOM ALSO WE HAVE ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE, wherein we STAND, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:2. Hence, the access of faith is the grace in which we stand! Speaking biblically, "grace is the access of faith!" The faith of Jesus is the accesss of such wonderful grace. It's really not that clever to "rail" against "faith" being not the same subject as grace." It's only a false agrument into the larger question. TRUTH OPPOSED NON-TRUTH.

By the way, if you believe sin will be eradicated, then you certainly do not believe that "unbelievers" will be immortal. In other words, sinners will actually "perish", if not, sin will never be eradicated.

Speaking of experience, sin has not been eradicated in our lives, nor from the universe, yet IN CHRIST everyone has been freed from sin. Yet, that will happen! Praise the LORD, He will PURGE the whole universe from sin, by the way, that includes the sinner, it cannot be any other way.

Blessings in Christ,
Jake

Dear Jake,

As I go and read your post #67, I really struggle to see where the disagreement is, if you do not believe in universal salvation, what is the disagreement? Your post is very confusing.


In His Love,
Suzanne