I have been really trying to make sense of the rapture and the remnant of Israel of that time. This post is for post tribbers mostly, if there are any here.

Here it is:
If the church successfully witnesses the gospel to Israel (provokes them to jealousy, Romans 11) and the remnant (1/3 of the Jews who survive the refining judgments of Zech 13) are then born again before Jesus' return, then what Jews will populate the millennial kingdom since they all will be "raptured" with the rest of the church when Jesus splits the sky?

Is it possible that the living saints who are raptured at Jesus' return will not be transformed into glorified bodies at that time, but at the final day of judgment after the millenium?
Will the regathered newborn remnant of Israel be regathered from Exile and flight in fulfillment of many OT prophecies so that they may, as mortals, share in and experience the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel in the millenial kingdom?
I have not heard this discussed or taught. Have you made sense of this conundrum?

I mean, 1 Cor 15 says that "we will ALL be changed" but it does not appear to definitely say that this will happen at the rapture, but it uses the word "then," in reference to 'AFTER' the trump sounds and the dead are raised (the "rapture"). This seems to timply that the time when we will "all be changed" is possibly after the millenium when Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father "so that God may be all in all."

PS I know that the dead in Messiah will be changed into glorified bodies at the rapture. That much is crystal clear. I am pondering when the living who are raptured are changed. 1 John said that "when we see him we will be like him." DOes this say that we are glorified at the rapture?

And by the way, I am somewhere in the post trib camp if you haven't noticed.

Maybe there is no millenium, on earth. What if it was in heaven?

"If the church successfully witnesses the gospel to Israel (provokes them to jealousy, Romans 11) and the remnant (1/3 of the Jews who survive the refining judgments of Zech 13) are then born again before Jesus' return, then what Jews will populate the millennial kingdom since they all will be "raptured" with the rest of the church when Jesus splits the sky?"

>Your statement here is one of many of the reasons why post-tribulational teaching is in error. Have you figured that out yet? Who will populate the Lord's millennial kingdom of mortals? The post tribulation view has no answer that can be supported by scripture for this one. The truth is that the Church will be immortalized long before the end of the tribulation period. It will be the mortal believing suvivors who become believers during the tribulation period that will populate the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth. The immortal Church will rule with Him over a kingdom of mortals.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I wonder how the people in the "millenium" will feel about living on an earth destroyed by nuclear weapons? LOL. Probably not too happy! LOL

Actually, that would kind of suck.

This present earth will not be destroyed by nuclear weapons. The Lord will clean up the mess after Armageddon and He will also replentish the earth with a perfect environment. This He is capable of doing for sure. Read Ezekiel 39 with regard to the cleansing of the earth for the Lord's millennial kingdom. Mnay scriptures of the O.T. describe this kingdom and its perfection.

The being changed will occur at a time that appears to those on earth as right after the elect have been caught up. But because of the suspension of time, the elect will see and witness events in Heaven during this earthly suspended time, after which Jesus Christ comes down with the Angels to transform the earth and make it ready for the Kingdom to start.

I can say this with certainty as it was shown to me in a vision.

We (all believers) will be changed at the last trumpet when the dead are raised.
1 Thes 4:16 makes it clear that the dead are raised at the return of Christ.
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Now the kicker comes in the next few verses.
for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 1Thes 5:2,3

Right after the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of them and those who are alive, the wicked are destroyed.
Paul says the same thing in the next letter to the Thessalonians.
"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. 2Thes 1:6-10.
When Jesus comes to receive the church and take us to heaven all of those who do not know God nor obey the gospel will be unished with everlasting destruction.
The righteous are taken to heaven, the wicked are destroyed. Who is left on the earth?
Researcher is correct, the earth will be destroyed just as Peter said when Jesus comes and God's believers will spend the 1000 years with him in the heavenly Jerusalem. The same one that comes down to this earth after the 1000 years.
I disagree with researcher that it will be nuclear bombs that destroys the earth. Stephen is correct about that. God will do that himself.
The problem with Stephen's approach is that he insists on Ez 38 being the final word for prophecy.
Jesus is the final word. l Jesus and the NT writers have much much more to say.
Prophecy is a progressive unfolding of God's plan to restore the entire world, not just the middle east.

All of the 7 last plagues will be the final end of sin on this earth except for a short time of final judgment at the end of the Millennium as explained in Revelation 20.
The key is that the Saints will be with Jesus. He is the center of the book of revelation. The Lamb is the hero.

The problem with pre tribs is that they have to overlook the entire NT interpretation of prophecy.
They for some reason choose to ignore Jesus and the NT writers and force the OT prophecies into an interpretation used by the same Rabbis who rejected Christ the first time he came.
3am

The last trump is blown...

The trump is always blown at God's Holy convocation. numbers 10:10.

The very last trump is blown at the very last holy convocation. The 8th day of tabernacles
Lev. 23.

Paul says New moons, holy days, sabbaths are foreshadows of things to come.


This year is the 8th year of the 3rd "day" since Jesus was born to earth 2000 years ago.

After 2 days He will revive us on the 3rd day He will raise us, so that we may live in His sight.


Satan is tied down of a thousand years, if he is let lose at the end of the millenial reign then he had to be tied down at the beginning of the millenial reign. Kicked out of heaven.
Many have discerned the souls or names or mantles of resurrected saints and angels, while on earth.
Can Jesus be far behind?


Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Notice Satan is tied down and only afterwards the souls of the saints are seen....

Likewise after Jesus saw Satan fall He said this:

Luk 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight

Jesus said it is the Father who names those who will rule with Him in heaven, but Jesus saw their names in heaven after Satan the "strongman" was taken out of the way...

Satan wasn't tied down at that time because later on at passover Jesus told Peter how Satan had asked to sift Peter. Who did Satan ask? God.

Many believe things of the past, many believe the future. But few believe the present.

I know Satan was taken out of the way, because I discern haveanly spirits on earth.

Try to keep an open mind as to the time that we are in...

There is a lot more happening in the spiritual realm of heaven then meets the physical eye.

Many have discerned the souls or names or mantles of resurrected saints and angels, while on earth.
Can Jesus be far behind?

I am confused as to what this is meanig here.

He thinks he is already resurrected and immortal. He has been deceived by the "manchild" manifestation cult leaders of the latter rain movements of the 80s. This aberrant teaching is total nonsense.

After two days He will revive us, on the 3rd day He will raise us.

I believe we have entered the time of the first resurrection, and the spiritual ID of the martyred saints are being seen.
And many discern angels of God in this "day".

I don't know what you mean by "spiritual identity of the martyred saints."

Enlighten me.

Hey 3. Could be that God destroys the world without the use of nukes. I took the use of nukes below for part of the destruction.

Nukes (fire from heaven)
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men.
Nukes again
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.


As for new Jerusalem being a literal city, it's actually us, believers coming down out of heaven. The bride.

Rev 21:9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Who knows what the fire will be from. Maybe nukes will be ancient and primitive technology at that point.

I hope not!

Right now I believe we will be changed the moment we we Jesus in the clouds at the rapture. Being that this is what seems the most clear, this raises a number of questions about the millenium and the remnant of Israel in it. But these questions do not change what is already clear enough.

These are two different manifestations fo fire coming down from heaven.
Revelation 20 describes fire coming down to destroy the the wicked.
Revelation 13 describes the fire coming down as a miracle by the false prophet which deceives the inhabitants of the earth.
A possible fulfillment of the miracle in Revelation 13 would be a counterfeit of Pentecost.

Acts 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Couple that with the unclean spirits that look like frogs in Rev 16:13 and it causes one to wonder.
Frogs catch their prey with their tongues.
Is the miracle a counterfeit gift of tongues which deceives many into thinking they are experiencing a wonderful miracle of the Holy Spirit?
Just a thought.
I am not putting down the gift of tongues. I believe God uses tongues in many miraculous ways.
But Satan does counterfeit everything God does.
That is why God also gave the gift of discernment.
I see lots of people believing lots of crazy things because of miracles, not because of Scripture.
Scripture must be the final test not the miracle.
3am

Bull

Nightmare, I have been with you right up to this answer. Why this word you used? This person can have an opinion. Though I am one that believes the word rapture is not in the Bible and we are not going to fly away, there is nothing wrong with another's interpretation. Can you say for sure what will happen? I cannot.

Either or on the fire from heaven in 13. Could be a political leader who orders a nuclear strike, or, a political/religious leader who can do miracles. I lean towards the prior. Rev. 20 is def. nukes though lol

As for the frogs, they're just spirits speaking through people to get them to the war when Christ returns in the sky with chariots and horses. Everyone will think it's an invasion from space. LOL. Hence the armies go to fight what's coming out of the sky. (that's a war i'd love to watch! )

The Bible is full of scriptures about the millennium and none on us going to heaven.

Doesn't the Bible say heaven will be here on earth in the new earth?

The new earth will be "heaven" because God will be dwelling there with all people forever.

That's what I thought, thank you Eli.

Hi BF. Yes, I put "was" in the sentence to make it past tense, as in, was the millenium in heaven. We will be ruling on earth. I agree.

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Where are you if you die right now then?

Yes it does, but that will not take place at Jesus' return but after the white throne judgment; most Christians believe the white throne judgment takes place at Jesus' second coming, no, that's not so. The white throne judgment is for the unsaved dead who will be resurrected and after a certain period of time at the end of that period will be judged or a verdict will be rendered. It is after this that heaven will be on the earth or God the Father will move His throne in heaven to the earth.

It says with the Lord, it does not say in heaven. Also, even the wicked and unrepentant sinners at death go back to God.

The Lord's habitation is called heaven in the Bible.

When you die you go to heaven Good or Bad....

Do bad people stay there in heaven with God and the saved people then too?

Truth is what you are looking for and truth only resides in God's words. God is steadfast and true and never seen clearly by mear mortal man. You need the spiritual eyes to see and the spiritual ears to hear thus know and understand God and His words more fully. Being born of God's Holy Spirit is just the beginning of the true knowledge and understanding that comes from God and God alone. We just don't instantly know every mystery and wounder of God upon being born again, thus we fellowship with fellow beleivers of God's born again spirit of truth and freely give and share these truths as we all need to learn and grow in these wounderful truths of God and His "WORD". So don't expect a bill in the mail. What I have I will freely give you as I myself wrestled with these very self same questions and through a great deal of research and prayer now know the beauity of these truths of God's words.

Who am I? A converted christian(born of the Holy Spirit of God by the only way, faith in Christ Jesus as my savior, redeemer thus Lord of my life) from a false religion (Roman Catholic) and of Jewish stock with loved ones still in their fallen state of disbelief in Christ Jesus as the only way and by faith alone in Him to be saved. I personally have flesh and blood on the line here and seek no personal gain what so ever in my answers to you. Just building up the faith(truth of God's words) amoung fellow beleivers in Christ, His church, bodily members as we all are in Christ. Sharing the love of God which is truth.

It is most easy to understand Israel at the very end of this church age by simply looking at the beginning of the church age. A rare few, being just a few thousand as the book of Acts clearly explains excepted Christ Jesus as their Savior. The same is still true today though there are many millions around the world of Jewish stock. Nothing new under the sun, everything at the very beginning remains the same to this day. Their spiritual hearts are hardened now as they were than and will remain that way to the very end. Only as the kingdom age begins, will they be converted. Thus you now should clearly see the very need for them to be sealed at the very beginning of the tribulation. So as to be afforded devine protection by God as they are yet unsaved, in a fallen state with no fellowship with God, though they pray to God. However not in the proper and only way, which is found only in Christ Jesus as their personal Savior. So our wise and loving God has this initial 144000 unsaved Jews worldwide saved and spared death durning the tribulation, not by way of the saving grace of Christ Jesus, but by this seal and this even is not of there choice as well. They have been selected only by the will of are most loving God and God alone to be spared. Nothing to do with faith in Christ or even God as well. God just sees their blindness and is expressing His compassion. That is an example of how wise God is, this act will altimatly save many more by those yet unknown that are sealed and afforded this special protection. As they will indeed stand out durning the coming tribulation and others will see and take notice of them. Drawing others near them as they standout as such. All of these Jews, once again, are in an unsaved state as in disbeleif of Christ Jesus as their Messiah and personal Savior.

You asked alot of most difficult questions for which there are no short answers so please bare with me as I'll continue.

Those of the true beleif in God, via Christ Jesus are afforded God's devine protection through the tribulation by way of our seal of deposit, God's Holy Spirit which resides within our mortal members. Able to assist and guide us along this way. We are only awaiting this final outpouring of God's Holy Spirit for the extra streangth an protection we will all need to survive these most difficult times. As we receive this final outpouring of God's Holy Spirit, rest assured these unsaved Jews will have been than sealed by God as well, though once again, not all will be sealed. Just the 144000 as noted equally from all the twelve tribes of Israel. Some say where is Dan? As always as being the first tirbe of Israel to fall away from God, they are in their unsaved and fallen state till the very end. Unprotected by seal or Christ Jesus's gift yet spared total destruction by both God and man. We saved Christians are very much like the unsaved Jews that are sealed, however there is a differance. The major differance is we know we are not only saved unto God through Christ Jesus but are in charge of our fate by the knowledge and understanding of God's gifts of His most precious Holy Spirit. These sealed Jews as well as unsealed have no knowledge or understanding of God's devine protection. They can only see the results. We who are saved by Christ Jesus, Gentile and Jew alike, know and proceed in full knowledge and understanding of the protection we are given by God in Christ Jesus and thus praise Him for all that we will be given. This will standout, as we proceed through the tribulation, to one and all. Both unsaved Jew and Gentile alike. Our harvest will be indeed most ripe durning the tribulation as all will be looking for devine protection. Jew and Gentile alike.

At the end of six years of tribulation, all who are not only now, but those durning the tibulation who call upon God to be saved via Christ Jesus will be raptured to God in heaven. Those yet alive at the end as well as all who have ever accepted this gift of eternal life found only in Christ Jesus will be raptured. In a blink of an eye those yet alive will be translated not only up into the air to meet their Lord and Savior but put on immortal flesh to be able to do just that. In sinless perfection, mortal flesh is sinful, immortal pure, as that is the only way to be able to stand before God. Forever with the Lord and God of all who is in heaven, except those 144000 sealed to God and Christ Jesus which I'll explain later.

At that point in time only the unsaved of this world will remain upon the earth. These specially sealed Jews included as they are still in their unsaved state yet under devine protection. The mystery of the gospel of Christ Jesus as well as all of the new testament which not only Jew but Gentile alike have rejected will than be more clearly seen for what is always was, the truth from God through Christ Jesus and His deciples by the power of God alone.

This final year is where the bowl judgments pour out upon all the unsaved in punishment. That is the full wrath of God is released. Judgments of God are expressed at the very beginning of the tribulation and increase in number as these first six years of tribulation play out. We who are saved at the very beginning are not under the wrath of God, only His devine judgment. Saved by the blood of the lamb we are more than conquerors to remain in are saved states thus not under judgment as the rest of the unsaved world is. We remain to save these lost soul for God in Christ Jesus as best we can. The more souls we save, the greater our reward when raptured to God in Christ Jesus.

As this last year of bowl judgments concludes, the ruling body of Christ Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom of Christ Jesus upon this earth for God. These are the special and selected 144000 sealed unto God and Christ Jesus retuning on white horses from heaven. By the power of God, the last of the unsaved, enemies of God perish. Only these specially selected servants of God in Christ Jesus return to rule the earth for God and Christ Jesus. All others will remain with God and Christ Jesus in heaven to be forever before their Lord and God. Only these 144000 sealed unto God and Christ Jesus return to the earth. Those special 144000 sealed Jews of all the tibes of Israel will not only have survived all these seven years of tribulation, but will be converted to serving God in Christ Jesus as well. Only a few other Jews and Gentiles alike will have survived this final year of judgment, thus the need for the first resurection.

These resurection saints are made up of both Jew and Gentiles that only in this final and last year of judgment called upon God to save them in Christ Jesus. They will have missed the rapture of all the saints of God, thus dead or alive, remain upon the earth even after resurection to repopulate the earth and carry-on throughout the 1000 year reign of Christ Jesus's Kingdom upon this earth.

Like I stated, you asked small and simple questions that have no easy answers, however I am sure you are much more at rest, as in a more fuller knowledge of God's words.

Resurection saints do not have immortal bodies nor do any and all who survive till the end. The Jews that were sealed by God for God are no differant than all others who survive till the end. Only that special 144000 sevrants, saints, bride, body and church of Christ Jesus who return form heaven have immortal bodies. Thus the ruling government will never come to an end due to loss of mere mortal life. Those put in charge at that time, whether it be a tribe or nation will rule till the end of time upon this planet. Please note that sin and death are still present till the end of this age as well. All will find one does not need any help from Satan to sin. Mortal flesh is indeed naturally sinful. Through the love that God provides in Christ Jesus to rule and reign forever this world is a far better place to live in once again. Grace mercy and foregivness are ever present as well as all blessings in Christ Jesus. People will live longer, yet perish as mere mortals and await the final resurection. Those who perished in their sinfulness to everlasting destruction. Those fully in and by the will of God, into ever lasting life with God in the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem as well.

I pray this will do as intended, enlighten you to a more fuller understanding of God's words about these last days so you will be better able to stand in these days of God's judgments. A shelter from the storm of tribulation all aound. Saving as many souls for God in Christ Jesus as God will allow. Thank you for your most precious time to fellowship.

I do. Christ came back and told us. It is all there in His Word.

The first resurrection from the dead happens at Christ's return to earth from heaven. Those who are resurrected will rule with Him a thousand years. They will be changed and can not die anymore.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Luke 20
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

God is omnipresent but it does not mean that heaven is...heaven was created, so before heaven was created God already existed from eternity.

No body that has died is in heaven, except Jesus.

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

When we (all people) die our body returns to the dirt that it came from and our spirit returns to God.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV)
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The spirit of man (human beings) goes up to God at death


Ecclesiastes 3:21 (ASV)
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man, whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goeth downward to the earth?

We don't really know what we will be like but we will be like Jesus, but we will not be spirit because Jesus has a glorified physical body and also the scripture tells us that we will have a spiritual body. A spiritual body is not a spirit body; there is no such thing in the Bible as a spirit body....you will never find spirit body in the Bible.

That is right heaven is for the living. Enoch ascended into heaven alive and Elijah ascended into heaven alive and Christ ascended up into heaven alive. Heaven is our Living God's throne.

Matthew 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

So are you saying that Jesus lied, when He said that no one has ascended to heaven?

By the way, I have a short Bible study on that topic that I will post on the Bible study aria, when I have earned enough post on this forum to start a new topic of my own.

http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq417.html
http://tinyurl.com/5jlnk6

The word Bible is not in the Bible either, neither trinity or sinners' prayer. Antidisestablishmentarianism and pro-life are not in the Bible either. The list could go on.

Atheism is the teaching that there is no God. "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).

Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character. Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.

Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh. Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).

Monotheism is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:8).

Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18). Thanks to Voice for that bit of info.


There is a "rapture" in the Bible for sure. That is not a matter of a human arbitrary opinion at all. We are not part of the New Age, post modern relativist movement. There can be only one truth. Truth, by its very nature and definition, can only be exclusive. The Holy Spirit is infinitely powerful and He guides people into all truth in His time and His way.

We are part of the church which is "the pillar and foundation of the truth," according to Paul. That is monumental!

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mat 24:29-31.


"14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, [4] that we who are alive, who are left until the [u]coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."[/u] 1 Thes 4:14-18.

These passages are two that describe what people call the rapture. That is a word that is close enough of a description of the Biblical teaching about the event. It is not a "heretical opinion of man" to use a word that is not in the Bible. We are not Muslims here. We are free to be creative and use words not found in the Bible if they are truthful words.

Notice the order of events and the language used in the above passages.

Paul: "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord..." Jesus first spoke of this in Mat 24, etc.

Jesus: "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven..."
Paul: " we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord..."

Jesus: "And he will send out his angels..."
Paul: " the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel..."

Jesus: "with a loud trumpet call,"
Paul: "and with the sound of the trumpet of God."

Jesus: "and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Paul: "And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,"

The scriptures do not say that the saints will go to heaven when Jesus returns, at least not the heaven where Jesus will come from. The scriptures shows us that the saints will rise up into the air, to the clouds to meet Jesus, but they will eventually return to the ground. The saint will be one the earth with Jesus and will be ruling over the nations with Jesus. It's important to put all the scriptures together to get a complete understanding of where we will be. Yes the wicked will be punished, some will be killed, but not everyone on the earth will be destroyed.

The "changing" involves transformation [translation] from the mortal to immortality. Heaven is a state and condition of existence .... not a place far far away in a corner of the universe. The immortal being inhabits this dimentional state of existence and it is in parallel with the material universe. Mortal life forms cannot enter into this dimension which is actually every where in the Lord's creation which has no limitations. There are no boundries for the immortal being in this condition.

The Lord has demonstrated this Himself by His movements at will into and out of the dimension that the Bible often describes as "heaven". Mortal life forms are barred from this dimension and cannot sense its presence by seeing, hearing, or touching. The idea of heaven being "up" from the earth is the mortal's concept depending upon where one is located on the earth. There is no "up" or "down" in the universe. "Up" refers to a "higher level" of existence. For example, when the believer is "caught up" to meet the Lord this means to the higher level of existence of immortality. This catching up to meet the Lord in the air is the symbolic way of explanation to the mortal on the earth that "heaven" is a higher plain of existence.

Paul has the explanation of this "changing" event recorded in 1Corinthians 15 and 1Thessalonians 4. He explains the necessity of the change for the mortal to enter into the heavenly dimension. He also tells that this is a "future" event for all human believers. This event has not taken place yet, but will for all at the same exact moment. The spirits of the physically dead believers are sleeping as Paul explains it, and waiting for their "change". When the event occurs there will also be some living belivers on the earth who will not have time to die physically, but will be directly changed into the state of immortality and will enter eternal life.

This event will be sudden and unannounced, and will occur in a moment .... in the twinkling of and eye. The spirits of the physically dead believers from the beginning of human existence will be awakened from their sleep [the preservation of their spirits over time] and at the same moment those living will be changed into the immortal state of concious existence with indestructible bodies that will last forever. Both the dead and the living will be "changed" by the Lord into the immortal state of existence and will be like Him and where He is.

We are changed when we receive the kingdom of God.

"We have already been translated in the kingdom of His dear son"

Blessed are those who partake of the first resurrection, they will not know the 2ND DEATH"

2nd death is spirtual death the first death is physical death, notice the resurrected elect will know the first death but not the 2nd death which is the death of the soul.

The last thing to go out of the millenial reign is sin and death. so much for your errant doctrines. Physical death is still around during the millenial reign...

Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die. Hence this feel good and false doctrine put forth by the ennemy so that we keep our guards down.

The first resurrection of the saints is already at hand and yet everyone is here on earth.

Hosea: After 2 days He will revive us, on the 3rd day He will raise us....

It's the same when Jesus saw the names of the 70 written in heaven, while they were on earth.

It's the same as to when John saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their testimony.

The scriptures tell that in the last days some will depart from sound study and correct interpretation of the scriptures in exchange for doctrines of demons. Any human walking the earth today who believes that he has been resurrected and immortalized has fallen for satanic manipulation and is utterly deceived.

You're taking Hosea 2 out of context to fit what you believe.

The world is already spiritualy dead.

Matthew 8:22 (BBE)
22 But Jesus said to him, Come after me; and let the dead take care of their dead.

So the second death can not be spiritual death, since anyone that is with out God is already spiritually dead as Jesus said...they are alive physically but spiritually they are dead. The second death is a literal and complete death, since in the first death only the body died, but the spirit remained and was being kept somewhere with God awaiting either the first resurrection, if you're of God or the second resurrection if you were not.

The dead in Christ will be raised from the dead with the sound of a trumpet at Jesus’ second coming.

Matthew 24:29-31 (ASV)
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (BBE)
16 Because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a word of authority, with the voice of the chief angel, with the sound of a horn: and the dead in Christ will come to life first;
17 Then we who are still living will be taken up together with them into the clouds to see the Lord in the air: and so will we be for ever with the Lord.

I think such a person can take a few simple tests; see if they can fly. If you are unable to rise up from off the ground into the air I think that is enough proof that such a person is still in their old body. If that is not convincing or if the person is unwilling to take that test, how about this one, see how long you can go without eating, or pinch yourself to see if you can feel pain. Of course I am just kidding around, because this is ridicules to believe that one is already resurrected or changed...that is, if that what one really believes.

Gideon said absolutely,

Who will Repopulate the Earth

Pre-tribbers argue that if the rapture occurs after the tribulation, all raptured and resurrected believers would receive glorified bodies, while all unbelievers would be sent to eternal punishment, leaving no third party to generate an offspring capable of revolting at the end of the Millennium, [Rev. 20:7-10]. This objection is largely based on the Sheep and Goats parable. It appears that no one is left out of Jesus' parable. "All nations" are gathered before Him and sepparated. Pretribbers believe the "sheep" in Jesus' story are "tribulation saints," saved after a pretrib rapture. They believe the Church will enter the Millennial Kingdom in glorified bodies, while "tribulation saints" will enter in natural bodies, bearing the rebellious offspring. The challenge for posttribbers is to explain how unbelievers could be present on earth towards the end of the Millennium, if all the unsaved are damned, and if all saints receive glorified bodies, incapable of reproduction, at the beginning of the Millennium.

This judgment will occur when Christ appears in glory with the angels to take His seat on the Millennial throne, [Matt. 25:31]. We know that there will be a Jewish remnant who be protected by God through the tribulation, [Rev. 12:14]. They will look upon Christ and be saved when He appears in glory for the battle of Armageddon, [Zech 12:10,11]. They will flee on foot toward the Mt of Olives after Christ and the saints touch down [Zech. 14:4,5]. Since, according to the posttrib view, the rapture takes place just before Christ appears to the world at Armageddon, this Jewish remnant will have missed the rapture. They will enter the Millennial Kingdom as new converts in natural bodies. These could produce many children, some of which will revolt at the end of the Millennium. The "sheep" are all believers who participate in the rapture and resurrection. The "goats" are the unbelievers who worshipped the Beast. The Jewish remnant will be a third party not mentioned in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats. One important point that adds credibility to this scenario is the fact that Jesus said the "nations" will be judged, some being the sheep and others the goats. The Greek word for "nations" is usually used in Scripture to denote Gentile nations. It is variously translated "nations," "Gentiles," or "heathen." It usually excludes the Jewish people. This scenario, in my opinion, completely solves the problem raised by pretribbers regarding who will spawn the seed that revolts at the end of the Millennium.

But, there is more to this than just a Jewish remnant. Several Old Testament passages indicate there will be Gentile survivors of the tribulation who will enter the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies. These are Gentiles that may have been in remote areas and the Beast never got to them before his end. For such we see, if the Lord had not shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake he will. I also believe that flesh of the unsaved that did not accept the mark or had not will be saved also. They shall possibly be the ones here to .lA few examples follow.

Isaiah 2
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isaiah 14 1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

Zechariah 14
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one....
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Ezekiel 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God....
36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

These passages clearly indicate that there will be some unsaved people who survive the tribulation and enter the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies. Yet pretribbers claim the parable of the sheep and goats has all the unsaved cast into eternal punishment at the beginning of the Millennium. Some claim this is also implied in Revelation. According to Revelation 13:8, all who are not written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast, and all who worship the Beast will be damned, [Rev. 14:9-11]. The verses in Revelation, however, do not indicate if this damnation occurs before or after the Millennium, or upon the end of their natural life span during the Millennium.

The challenge for posttribbers is to explain how unbelievers could be present on earth towards the end of the Millennium, if all the unsaved are damned, and if all saints receive glorified bodies, incapable of reproduction, at the beginning of the Millennium.

Unbelievers will mostly repent after Jesus finishes the battle of Armageddon. The unbelievers who survive that time are likely ones that were not directly involved in the battle(s). They are a remnant who survived God's judgments on the earth also. Many may be people who rejected the antichrist and were in flight/hiding from his forces. They may not have really heard the gospel even until after Armageddon. All nations will have heard, but not all people are promised to have heard the gospel. There are those calle "the righteous of the nations" or "righteous Gentiles." They may not really know God but they do the right thing. It only takes a small number of people to repopulate too.

You are right on track what the Antichrist will do in the end time. If there is one word I can think of, it is duplication! There will not only be miracles, but the false messiah will try to duplicate everything the real Messiah will do when He returns!! Christ Will have His kingdom, So will antichrist. We will be co-rulers with Christ. Antichrsit will "divide the land for Gain" who does He give it to? the Decieved bride. There will be a seduced, and decieved Bride, for His is the false Bridegroom. There will be a false Marriage supper..

He will be able to do all of this because there will be a seven year period, and certian events He will be able to point to, and explain all prophecy is fulfilled, and He is the Messiah!! The Church is walking into the biggest deception the world has even seen!!