The church is resonating critical failure for mixing law and grace. That is the case of Laodicean. The law is COLD and grace is HOT. Mix the two and you get lukewarm. I heard a sermon last night in a church I was planning on attending. All I heard is how I am under the curse for lack of obedience. That is NOT the WAY OF CHRIST. The case is for life stated as "either/or." It is not "or either." You have to have ONE without the other. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. You can have law. But you cannot have grace with it. No mix. The charismatic failure has come for this reason. It has demonstrated the lukewarm church in fullness of bloom. And we weep as little children beguiled. Like as if a little child stands at the top of the stairs (satires) and daddy is below and says, "Jump my little one! Daddy is here to catch you!" The little one trusts his daddy completely and so he jumps with wild abandon. But daddy does a dissappearing act and the little child crashes to the floor in great pain for having hit the floor with no trusted hand to withold...this is what law and grace does. It promises to catch you but allows you to fall....and hit hard....

There is a soon coming manifestation of His presence that will be like the book of Acts church. People who are not sincere will be like Annanias and Saphira...deaths will occur right in churches...people will fall on their faces in desperate repentance for all of their supposed faithfulness which was nothing more than a cover up. His Presence will reveal even this. Blessed redeemed souls, get ready for the appointed time is nigh. The candor and honesty has been heard by God in Dutch Sheets willingness to "own the problem" on behalf of the body. God is bring cleansing fire upon His church.

friend says:
Mixing Law and Grace is not a case of Laodicean. For Paul said if we practice the Law we FALL from GRACE.
What Paul was saying is if we feel the need to add the requirements of the Law under Moses to the Grace given to
us by Christ, then we are saying that Christ is not sufficient in saving us, that Works must accompany our Salvation
and this will remove us from HIS GRACE. A very serious matter.

The church in Rev. 3:14 Laodicea is a lukewarm church because of their DEEDS, their WEALTH. No where does it identify they were keeping the LAW with GRACE and this made them lukewarm. It is good to see the fever of the spirit in you, but as one of God\\\'s children you and me must all strive to speak solid truth and not put something into scriptures that simply is not there, trying to bring a point about. This makes you lose the strength of the message your trying to get out.

Law and Grace is a great subject to discuss and give light to for the readers, but we have to express it so that it is solid in it's presentation of scripture content to the reader.

Hope you understand where I am coming from, it is not to destroy what you want to express, just in helping you see that which you used is not adequate in the use of the scriptures your using. Nor can Lukewarm be identified with association with lukewarm, for if you are under the Law, you simple have fallen from Grace.

Now, there are churches who mix some of the legalistic statues and ordinances standard to the OT understandings with the New Testament Understanding.
Sunday keepers are told that must keep the 1st day of the week as the 4th commandment ie Church of Christ does this.
They are told that they are keeping the 10 commandments and they use this association, when they preach Christ.

No, they have not fallen from Grace, because they use the 10 Commandments under a NEW understanding. Are they correct? No, but they have not fallen from Grace either.

Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the Law....7:18 the former
regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, but now a better hope has been introduced.

A new covenant has been written that we have entered into. Through HIS GRACE that came to us from the seed of Jacob who did not want this New HOPE with HIM, we have been grafted INTO this PROMISE of ETERNAL LIFE being obedient to the SPIRIT OF GOD, which leads us and guides us. Yes, I used the word obediant to the Spirit NOT to the Law.

If you see a woman drop her money, you get excited and pick it up and give it to her quickly, you were being obedient to the spirit that moved you to act honest and give her the money rightfully hers. This is obedience to the spirit of God in you to be honest and loving her as your neighbor.

Now, had you hesitated and thought for a moment, humm, this is a 100 dollar bill, she looks like she has millions, I\'ll keep it.
Now, you have gone against the spirit of God that made you want to do good. This is the obedience Paul is speaking of. We are to be obedient in living the WAY through the Spirit that guides us, \"IF WE LET IT\" for we can go against it.

They say, "if you love Christ you will keep his commandments" Have we not been told from Christ that is we believe him, keep HIS commands. These many churches are keeping his commands but they simply use the term 10 commandments when that is not the fullness of their actions by keeping a Day to the Lord. Neither are Sabbath keepers. They are doing only what they understand and they have not fallen from GRACE.

It is the acts of circumcision that is added to Christ that is wrong. This is a physical act of works. Show me one scripture in the NT where it says YOU MUST NOT KEEP THE SABBATH, for we are to KEEP EVERYDAY NOW to the LORD> amen.

Col 2:16 Do not let anyone judge you by what you eat, or regard to a religious festival, or a Sabbath for these are a shadow of the things to come. Now Paul is speaking in the present sense is he not? Has not Jesus already been risen? The reality of these things are now found IN CHRIST. So, you can keep a Sabbath or festival, or you don\'t have too, the reality is it all is found in CHRIST who has set us free from the regulations and the ordinances under the Law.

We all are growing in understanding of the word of God. Some are on milk and eat vegetable not pork or meat. Paul said it is all good for God made it. But we are not to let our FREEDOM in understanding become a stumbling block to our weaker brothers. What I understand about the Sabbath and the change of Law as Heb 7:12 stated is different from most but I am not to destroy my weaker brothers because of my knowledge.

The one thing I see amongst the churches today is they put everyone else down, that they have such self righteousness in their knowledge they find pleasure in destroying the household of God through their TV shows, talk shows, saying hurtful, and their wrong teaching about the Law, Grace, the Sabbath, Sunday, and all who profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has been accepted into the family of God by Christ at repentance. Roman 10 gives clearly what saves us. And all we do is knock all our brothers and sister down from their understanding. We have not demonstrated the LOVE GOD has required us to show to each other.

Here I am venting and got off the subject matter that you posted. Thank you for reading this if you made it down this far.
I know you are a child of God, and Satan is looking for whom he can devour in the church to make us turn against our weaker brothers and sisters that we sin.

Friend.

I look forward to His Presence!

I guess I will pick here to disclose a prophesy I gave to Stephen Strader of Lakeland "Ignited Church", and the correspondence that I had with him concerning it. Read from the bottom up.

The prohesy I gave, and the following email correspondence:

Flag this messageRe: June 23, 2008 Day 83 Apostolic Alignment Part 2Friday, July 4, 2008 11:00 PM
From: "D. C." <engineering_technologist@yahoo.com>Add sender to Contacts To: "Stephen Strader" <stephenstrader@gmail.com>Hello,



I know you are very busy down there and you hardly have the time to read through these. I don't know much about what is going on with your Church, but I hope people are getting more then physical healings. If you click on the link I provided and read everything I wrote about in that thread, you will know what I am about. I had a vision about a disaster that is heading to you. A Katrina Class hurricane is going to hit somewhere down there, and it is coming because of judgement...not for blessing. My message is simple...God is telling His people to get ready and repent of sin or face His judgement. That is my message.

--- On Fri, 7/4/08, Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: June 23, 2008 Day 83 Apostolic Alignment Part 2
To: engineering_technologist@yahoo.com
Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 8:08 PM

Sorry, I don't get it please explain
Stephen Straderstephenstrader@gmail.comwww.ignitedchurch.com
Watch the Florida Healing Outpouringgo to website for link
Sign up for daily reports!IgnitedEvents-subscribe@myinjesus.comput subscribe on subject line




On Jul 3, 2008, at 8:17 PM, D. C. wrote:

I am writing to inform you of a prophetic dream I had. I am sure you get a lot of these, but you really need to hear this one:



http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=20684

--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com>
Subject: June 23, 2008 Day 83 Apostolic Alignment Part 2
To: engineering_technologist@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 10:30 PM

Ignited Events
Subscribe Unsubscribe Change E-mail View Archive

June 23, 2008 Day 83 Apostolic Alignment Part 2
Stephen Strader
Jul 3, 2008


This is Part 2 of the APOSTOLIC ALIGNMENT service on Monday, June 23, 2008

Please read a personal note from Pastor Stephen Strader at the end of this report.
~~~~~~~

To this he responded:

DC I've heard that same prophetic warning about a storm since 1971What can we do?
Regarding this outpouring: we have about 170 people a week that we are following up on as new converts... is that good?
all of my bills are paid at my church and I'm paying cash for everything... is that good?
all of my church members are excited and coming... is that good?
over 9000 people have been trained in evangelism... is that good?
Stephen Straderstephenstrader@gmail.comwww.ignitedchurch.com
~~~~~~~~

To this I responded:

Flag this messageRe: June 23, 2008 Day 83 Apostolic Alignment Part 2Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:24 PM
From: "D. C." <engineering_technologist@yahoo.com>Add sender to Contacts To: "Stephen Strader" <stephenstrader@gmail.com>

Remember this email when I prophesied to you what was coming? I hope TS Fay does not turn into a Katrina Class Hurricane for you...I would rather see mercy then judgement. ...but to Todd I write:http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=22500&view=findpost&p=225400

--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: June 23, 2008 Day 83 Apostolic Alignment Part 2
To: engineering_technologist@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 3:09 PM


On Jul 5, 2008, at 2:00 AM, D. C. wrote:

Hello,
I know you are very busy down there and you hardly have the time to read through these. I don't know much about what is going on with your Church, but I hope people are getting more then physical healings. If you click on the link I provided and read everything I wrote about in that thread, you will know what I am about. I had a vision about a disaster that is heading to you. A Katrina Class hurricane is going to hit somewhere down there, and it is coming because of judgement...not for blessing. My message is simple...God is telling His people to get ready and repent of sin or face His judgement. That is my message.

--- On Fri, 7/4/08, Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Stephen Strader <stephenstrader@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: June 23, 2008 Day 83 Apostolic Alignment Part 2


~~~~~~~

Notice the dates and times that I sent the emails, and what events happened after. Todd Bentley was judged, and Florida had an outpouring that broke records.


To Todd Bentley I write:

"Repentance is a rocky road best travelled in the day, when there is light, lest darkness comes, and I stumble in the darkness, and then comes the fall...that is to say the Spirit of God will not always strive with man. I will therefore humble myself before God, who has called me to walk this road of repentance." Sometimes we are thown curveballs...but we recover. Sometimes God will bring things into our path so He can get out attention.

Hebrews 12:5 ..."My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.

" Yours is a ministry of healing...now it will be a ministry of restoration and reconciliation...and Shonna will join you up on the pulpit. The divorce rate is way too high in among Christians...so your ministry will be one of healing of marriages, of healing of lives, and healing of families...to restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers...a ministry of repentance and reconciliation to the Lord.

This is conditional, in that repentance must take place. Please seek the Lord about this Mr. Bentley, and may God Bless you as you humble yourself and repent before Him.

This depends on the works you are talking about. If this is a call to personal holiness than I am all for it. If this is to be a call to Mosaic law, then you do not understand the scriptures.

Reminds me of something that was revealed in the Word, just a few nights ago, that previously had not ever stood out for understanding. It was in regard to these constant discussions over salvation and works. The Word clarifies that the one who has been saved by Jesus, MUST, I repeat, MUST maintain.......____________________? Anybody care to read the folowing for the answer? And the instruction goes further to clarify that to bring up the "LAW" in contention against it is not right. I find it interesting, because countless times, I've seen those who will quote verse 5 regarding grace, yet totally ignore the instruction of verse 8 and 9:


Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;




In His Love,
Suzanne

Please listen again to Paul. "Because the carnal mind is enmity with God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God....For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body you shall live" (Rom. 8:7-8, 13). But this was impossible before pentecost becuase the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. It wasn't until after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Penetcost that this would have been possible. That is why before the Holy Spirit was given, we had to serve God with ordinances and a multitude of Laws and commandments which neither we nor our forefathers could keep.



Will you please think of some questions based on these verses? Since the carnal mind is enmity with God, is it possible Christians can have carnal minds? Read 1Corinthians 3:1-3. Those who live in the flesh cannot please God.

Was it possible for the Roman Christians and for other Christians to live after the flesh? If were not possible, why did Paul write these words to the Romans? Can Christians maintain their salvation if they fail to mortify (or to kill) the deeds of the body?

You and I both know that Paul was not dealing in theoretical ideas. He was showing the absolute necessity of mortifying our carnal desires and ungodly behaviors (through the power and santification of the Holy Spirit).

Is that not also what Paul told the Colossian Christians? "Mortify therefore your members that are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience" (Col. 3:5). Does mortifying or killing our evil desires and conduct have no relationship to our being holy?

The Key is the "Born Again" experience and the giving of the Holy Spirit, who enables us to live in the Spirit and conduct ourselves here on Earth in holiness and honor...and those that do not have the Spirit of God are none of His.


I will write more on this and pick up where I left off with my Righteousness by Faith and not by the works of the Law thread...it's actually a continuation of revelation.

notice I said "works of the Law" and not good works...more later.

enables......yes. forces........no.


That is why the Law shows us where we are not yielding to His Holy Spirit's power to enable us to overcome.


I'm curious, why do you think that in the passages I posted, that Paul addresses the issue of "Law" with regard to it?


In His Love,
Suzanne

He does not force us, we yield ourselves.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...&version=9;

The Law is good:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=49;

The Holy Spirit Shows us, and not we ourselves. And it is the Holy Spirit who enables us to overcome by the Blood of the Lamb, and not we ourselves.

John 16:13 says:
However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

and again:

Romans 8
Free from Indwelling Sin


1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

(Righteousness by faith and not by the works of the law) 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I think we are in agreement Earendel.


In His Love,
Suzanne

Totally agree. What is walking in the flesh, that when we have the spirit of God we shouldn't do to stay in the Spirit?

Friend

The Law is good Suzanne:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=49;


The law just has no power over me...because I have no sin...and because I have no sin, I am not under the law and the law has no power over me! How do I have no sin? Jesus nailed my sins to the cross and this is called grace; therefore, I have no more sins before God, and I am completely made righteous before the throne of God, being made free from sin through the cross of Christ. This is the righteousness which is by faith. Do you understand? I am sin free before God because Jesus took away my sins, and where there is no sins, the righteousness that the law requires is fullfilled.

Now does this mean I do not have to have good works? ...of course not!! How shall we who have been freed from sin live any longer there in! God shall enable us to live free from sin in our lives:

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (meaning God will enable us to live holy with good works!) My body is physically the Temple of the Holy Spirit...meaning a part of me is God. I have His seed born into my spirit (the holy of holies is the place of His residence which is my heart...and I love Him so) which grows and brings forth fruit unto righteousness (righteous works), but but the Spirit, I serve God...inwardly which manifests outwardly through righteous works. And every day is Holy and is the sabbath...Jesus my rest...because He is within me...flesh of my flesh and bones of my bones...I am His physical body on Earth as you are too! We live every day in holiness to God...for without holiness, no one shall see Him.

Earendel.

What did l say to you right after that dream?...

I said a hurricane event isn't necessarily a literal storm. It could be any number of things..symbolic.

The Todd Bentley issue in my mind is a Katrina class event and I'll tell you why.

Look at New Orleans and why destruction was brought in the first place. Was it just the sins of the world that brought judgement? No..the world is already judged...take some time to look at what was going on in the church there at that time...I'm not saying the whole church ...

l want to say here and now ...
that when something is going on around you and you don't speak up you become part of the judgement.

New Orleans is still not fixed...

this is a message to the church if you believe the prophetic significance of your dream
which l believe you do or you wouldn't have passed it on....

I believe if we examine the wake of Katrina..or better said maybe...the "wake" of New Orleans will have a better understanding of what lies ahead for this particular "movement"

Perhaps you are right about the symbolism here, but I did prophesy to them and said:
A Katrina Class hurricane is going to hit somewhere down there, and it is coming because of judgement...not for blessing. My message is simple...God is telling His people to get ready and repent of sin or face His judgement. That is my message.

Both happened within a couple of weeks of me doing this. Todd Bentley was judged (and perhaps the movement), and they had a Katrina Class Storm hit Florida and caused widespread flooding that broke records. Shekel said something that kind of stuck. He said sometimes a prophetic word is not only predictive but causitive, as it is not just the prophets word, but the very word of God.

To be honest, I do not know too much about the movement that Mr. Bentley is involved in, but I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet, until I know more about them. The word I gave them was truly prophetic from the Lord, because it came to pass exactly as I told them, and in short order too.

I know that God is about to judge His church (this means all of us) In fact, I am going to prophesy again and tell us all that we better press into the Lord, and repent, (the Lord grant me repentance) (be prepared for God's presence in our midst!! ) - to reveal things to us, and start dropping sin and worldliness/carnality in our lives, because world events are about to occur/explode all around us soon.

It is going to be very difficult for us to be Christians in the world soon, and there is coming a great delusion too. We are living in the days just prior to the Great Tribulation Miki, and events that about to occur are going to point to this. "Be on your guard" "Be vigilant" "be sober" "do not compromise the word of God" The Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all of us. You know, after all is said and done, I would just rather Love God in my soul in the beauty of holiness. I truly love the burning presence of the Holy Spirit in my soul...I can feel His presence within me.

My thrust is that the charismatic church has adopted (borrowed really) concepts of the law which fit their belief profile and have ignored others. It cannot be accepted adhoc as one desires to fit one's belief profile. All law or no law. All grace ot no grace. They mix like oil and water. I have had to "unteach" myself concepts of that...tithing being an example...Charismatics like to apply the blessings from DT 28 as an example. But at the same time if you are in Christ he has become a curse for us...the curse of the law is no more if we are in Him. I attended a charismatic service this past Sat night...and I was infomed about all the curses that will come on me for non compliance...I got up and walked out...