One World Religion and Government

A brother once said,



There are hundreds of examples in the bible where the word all is used and it never means the entirety of the whole. When all is being used with words like earth and world, much needs to be considered in getting a proper interpretation. One example is,

Daniel 2:39  And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Regardless of who you believe this empire is, no empire at any time ever ruled over all the earth.

There are dozens of examples in the New Testament where all is used in different ways always implying a part of the whole. If I said, "the whole town was there last nite". It doesn't mean everybody in town was there, yet the bible actually often speaks like this. etc. If a verse says that all the people were antonished, it means that all the people who were there were astonished. This sort of thing is found throught scripture.

Brother Fortner say's.


(2) Whole World?
At this point you might bring to mind that in Revelation 13 it says,
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev.13:8)
To begin with it does not say that everyone will worship the beast, but only those who are not Christians. Most inhabitants of the Middle East and North Africa are Muslims and will be part of or give approval to the coming Islamic Empire. Second, when the bible uses the term "earth" or "world" it does not mean the whole planet as seen in the following examples:
And all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the world. (Genesis 41:57)

The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart. (1 Kings 10:24)

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar August, that all the world should be taxed. (Luke 2:1)

So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" (John 12:19)
All nations did not go to Egypt to buy grain, neither did all nations seek an audience with Solomon, neither was the whole planet taxed by the Romans, neither did the whole world follow Jesus while he was on Earth. What this shows is that the Bible often speaks of the whole world or the whole Earth, but it really means just a large geographical area of no certain size, and refers to nations that exist in the Mediterranean world.

When the book of Revelation says the whole earth will worship the beast, it mostly refers to Islam across the world and esp. the nations of the Middle East, and North Africa, which are Islamic; Islam will be the religion of the beast with ten horns. Yet there is another verse which seems to indicate the whole planet, "And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation" (Rev.13:7). It says it was given "authority over" every nation, but that does not mean it rules every nation for a full 42 months; it means it will invade the world during World War III, like Hitler invaded Europe, but it will be defeated like Hitler was defeated. To further illustrate that the Bible does not mean the whole planet, even when it appears to, in Daniel 2 King Nebuchadnezzar is said to rule the whole world:
"You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all." (Daniel 2:37-38)
Wow, Daniel must have been exaggerating. This is also an example of hyperbole, which is an intentional exaggeration to make a point, as the land was "flowing with milk and honey." At no time was the land of Cannan actually flowing with milk and honey. It means it was a very fertile land. Just a few decades after Neb was declared ruler of the world, Babylon was conquered by the Media-Persian Empire (Persia is today Iran). So Neb did not rule the world, he did not rule all the known world, he did not even rule all the Middle-East.

Also, in Jeremiah, God said of Nebuchadnezzar, "All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him" (Jeremiah 27:7). If "all nations" are subject to Babylon, where do the kings and nations come from that will defeat Babylon? So this shows that the Bible does not mean the whole planet but merely a large section of no certain size. Likewise, the beast will not rule the planet but will rule most nations in the Middle East and North Africa.

Finally, Paul said, "All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing" (Colossians 1:6). Clearly, Paul did not mean the whole planet. So the beast does not rule the world as a dictator, and does not bring peace, but war.

(3) Past Empires
There have been several vast empires in the world, such as Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome, but what most people do not realize is that there have also been two vast Islamic empires that were more vast than the Roman. There was also a vast Christian empire that Historians call the Byzantine Empire but it was really the Eastern Roman Empire after it converted to Christianity and was ruled from Constantinople.

The first Islamic empire began shortly after the death of Muhammad the Prophet, the founder of Islam. It was the plan of Muhammad to spread Islam throughout the world, and any nation that did not allow the practice of Islam was invaded and conquered; so began the war against Byzantium because it was a Christian empire that did not allow the practice of any other religion. It was repeatedly attacked by Muslim armies over a period of 800 years as it slowly lost its territories. Constantinople itself was finally defeated in 1453 by the second Islamic empire, ending 1,100 years of Christian life and culture. The second Islamic empire was the Ottoman Empire that lasted over 600 years until it was defeated during World War I.

The beast of the book of Revelation has ten horns and seven heads. The seven heads, we are told, are past empires that have ruled the civilized world in the Middle East, Southern Europe and North Africa. We are also told that one of those empires will rise again.
10 [The seven heads] are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. (Revelation 17:10-11)

This passage tells us that seven kingdoms will rule one after the other, and that an eighth will be one of the original seven who rises again, the coming Islamic empire. Those empires are Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome, Arabic, and Ottoman. The purpose of this beast is to continue the war against Christians as it did in the past in another attempt to dominate the world.
12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." (Rev. 17:12-14)
The beast has defeated Christians in the past and will do so again, but it will be defeated by Christ himself when he returns to bring judgment upon all nations.

(4) Worship the Beast
Some people insist that everyone on Earth will actually worship a global dictator, in spite of the verses in Revelation 13 that say that the beast will wage war against Christians. The Greek word for worship used in the book of Revelation is proskuneo (4352) which literally means to bow down before someone. The Complete Word Study Dictionary says,
In the NT, generally, to do reverence or homage to someone, usually by kneeling or prostrating oneself before him. (CWD)
Every instance of the word "worship" in the book of Revelation is proskuneo. If John wanted to give a different meaning he could have used one of several different Greek words such as sebomai (4576) which means,
To revere, stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, to worship religiously. To stand in awe of someone, to reverence, venerate, worship.
Bowing before someone was considered a form of worship and the Greek word proskuneo refers to this form of worship. What this points to in Revelation 13 is the bowing toward Mecca that Muslims do five times every day; the religion of the beast will be Islam and it is the majority religion in the Middle East and North Africa.

(4) Jihad -- Holy War
Some people will have you believe that Islam is really a religion of peace and that "jihad" does not mean holy war, but struggle.


- C.H. Spurgeon said,

The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
So what happens to verses that say;

"ALL" who are not written in the book of life will worship the Beast.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in
the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
It becomes All of every sort, i.e. every nation every people, ect. will worship the beast.
But none of the ones whose names are already written in the book of life.
The same with "he will cause All to receive the mark.

__________________________________________________________________________________________
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So what I'm saying is that there will not be a one world government. The beast has ten horns and seven heads. That does not imply the entire planet and to claim that it does contradicts the obvious symbolism of this beast and therefore the vision itself.

There is not one verse that implies that the end time religion would be any form of religion united into one. The religion of the beast is here. The longtime enemy of Israel...ISLAM... is the counterfeit religion of the beast. The two major sects of Islam, sunni and shia, are symbolized in the two horned beast of Revelation. Babylon the Great is Islam.

sw

Hi SecondWind,
Nice to talk with you!

I would propose that although you have carefully argued your case, it is neither scriptural nor historical.

In considering "all the earth", the audience must perceive that there were levels of regions, communities, fifedoms, kingdoms, and an existing empire. Certainly Alexander conquered that empire, and all the kingdoms! Thus, "all the earth".

Furthermore, even historians have generalized (correctly so) that the "Great War" was a "world war"; and aptly renamed that event WWI, when WWII arrived. -- Did EVERY nation fight? No, Switzerland and Ireland both imprisoned Allied soldiers who crossed over their borders, and Switzerland's fighter aircraft even shot down at least one wounded American bomber which was attempting to parachute it's crew to safety.

Please allow me to suggest that Daniel 11:2 validates the "whole earth"/"WWI" premise proposed herein. Thus when properly transliterated should better read:

2:39 "... a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth."
11:2 "and when he has become strong through this riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece all the earth."

To validate this premise, one must simply consider 3-4 as WWII, etc.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

PS 12:4 & 9 dictate fulfillments approximate to 1948AD, not ~483BC.

You have to read carefully.

All will worship the beast that are not in the Lamb's book of life.

That does not mean christians exclusively at the time of the desolation. It means those that are foreknown to be believers by the end of the age; surely there will be those who flee and or do not worship the beast that are not saved when the final desolation happens. Indeed, many awake, after he proclaims himself as god; but, all that are not in the Lamb's book of life, those who are afraid to lose their life to gain their life, will worship him.

DaDad,

You said...




The word all is used in different and odd ways in scripture as Spurgeon said. The word "audience" may be to whom the word is directed to, so it's not directed to the entirety of the whole. Also. The third kingdom did not conquer the entire earth neither did it even come close to ruling over the "inhabbited earth" and it for sure did not rule the entire planet. These are just some of the way's the word "all" is used throughout scripture.

You may want to research what Spurgeon and Fortner said.

SW

This is not the way this verse should really be understood. It would be more accurate and more logical to understand this as all those who are within the religion of the beast or within it's many kingdoms.

Those who are written in the book of life, and those who are not believers and are not within the systems of the two beast are excluded. It's all of them within that are subject to the worship of the beast. However,

Muslim's may bow to him...the ac, 5 times a day and that kind of thing does cover the whole planet.

SW

hi~

stand on the Word of the LORD more-so than the works of men, the holy bible is very specific concerning things added or taken away from the Word ~ what is written in the Word is holy & true. in essence, trust in God. of a truth, two groups will be distinctly divided - the clay & the iron, the iron will be loyal to the false prophet, the clay will be loyal to the LORD.

in the Book of Revelation, it explains that this division will be uneven, the majority of the earth will be loyal to the false prophet while the minority will remain loyal to the LORD, even unto death.

the devil will be given temporary dominion over this earth with his bab-el 2.
but it shall profit him not.

~levite-7

one world ,one religion, and family is in heaven, we cant find on the earth in the near future.

Hi SW,
I would propose that Spurgeon and Fortner are not a primary source. As such, the primary source suggests that Greece indeed did conquer "all the earth", as I attempted to substantiate previously. I also proposed that Daniel 11:2 validates that "all the earth" premise in the WWI fulfillment.

But the significance of your Islamic focus is not valid either in the "whole earth" postulation, nor in your Revelation 13; John 12:19; "seven heads"; implied fulfillment for the "ten horns"; the "beast"; entire planet; and conclusion to the Islamic religion.

Your agenda is neither scriptural or historical. However, it is an agenda. -- (Sorry!)

With Best Regards,
DaDad

DaDad,

It's not at all unscriptural. It's beyond my understanding how anyone can tell me that, and then tell me that the Greek Empire encompassed the whole world. The words earth and world often mean a geographical area or the inhabited earth at the time, and they don't alway's mean the entire planet. Both Spurgeon and Fortner use Strong's concordance and lexicon and so do I. If you don't use it, it's almost hopeless trying to convince people of anything. You more than likely did no research on anything.

By translating the words in their own language, and using the lexicon, you can see how the same word is used in other verses then you would see that like Spurgeon said that there are about 7 or 8 ways in which the word is used. And he is right. and so is Fortner.

You should read and research before you say this is unscriptural. Nobody likes to admit they wrong or that they have been wrong.
If you want, we'll bring out the scriptures, bring out the Strong's, and I bet it won't change your mind a bit.
I'll even do some of your homework for you.
Are we on!

SW

Hi SecondWind,

2:39 ... a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.
Please allow me to suggest that "the whole earth" appears to be a relative term as I suggested earlier, in that 2:39 is limited to those dominions which could be conquered. (I.e., I really don't think Alexander's troops are searching the piney woods for three shacks approximate to each other, and demanding: "Who's your king?".)

it never means the entirety of the whole
In this consideration one must only look as far as verse 35: But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

Right away we can perceive that the same word, "ara", Strongs #772, are employed in both texts. Issiah suggests that during the millennium reign that there will still be sinful disobedience. So although the returned Messiah will have global dominion, men still have individual choice.


However, from what I gleened from your post, it would appear that "all the earth" only means -- what, half of the world's governments? Such that Jesus will only have the northern hemisphere? -- Your logic appears to be driven by a false Islamic expectation, resulting in a contradictory conclusion, (i.e., no true global government / but a true global millennium).

I hope this helps,
DaDad

2

Are you hearing what I'm saying?

That's my point. And that's what Spurgeon say's. That is just one of the 7 or 8 way's in which the word all is used where it doesn't denote the entirty of the whole. Get it? It doesn't mean the entire planet or even the inhabited earth. It means a part of the whole...the dominions which were conquered...like you said. And the same goes for the kingdom of the antichrist. Only those within it's ten nation kingdom will be subject to the wiles of the antichrist. This type of prose is seen throughout scripture when it comes to the use of the word "all".


The beast has seven heads and ten horns. Since I've been a christian, speculation by all the experts about this beast has changee several times over the years. It went from the league of nations to the UN, to the EU. Now many have changed their tune and say the world will become some sort of 10 entities/nations and that's what will become the beast and all people on the planet will accept this man of sin. That's hogwash! And it's sad so many don't know how to research this and repent...change their minds and let the truth of prophecy speak for itself.

The big shots have fabricated a fantasy and a mess that most christians who don't know any better have fallen for. The events to come will speak for themselves. And the big shots will continue to fabricate their story as the events unfold because... their still here. And to a pretribulationist who has accepted this bundle of blunders, these are not the prophesied events of the end...because their still here!

The final kingdom will be limited to ten nations. That's clear from the symbolism of the beast and other verses. There will be no pretrib rapture that will launch the planet into a one world government and one world religion.
The theory of the big shots who have misled millions keeps changing. And the people who research very little and accept what these big shots teach just follow them along into dillusion.

SW

Hi SW,
Please allow me to suggest that Alexander DID conquer "the whole earth". (I.e., down to hamlets.) So too, there will be a one-world-government. (I.e., down to hamlets.) And I might also suggest that this entity is sufficiently described to match one of those which you declared as "hog wash".

As such, please believe what you choose to believe, but you really shouldn't infer that it has a scriptural basis. Scripture does NOT match what you have suggested.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

PS You might want to research the Permanent Membership on the Security Council for those ten nations.

DaDad,

You said,



Alexander did not "bear rule over all the earth". You neglect to understand the many ways how the word all is used and implied. You continually insist that Alexander conquered the whole earth when he didn't. I'm not sure you understand what you said when you said that in Daniel 2:39 is limited to those dominions which could be conquered. A more accurate statement would be to say, "limited to those kingdoms which were already conquered. That's not the whole earth and that's what Spurgeon, Fortner, and I are saying. The point is the word all is often used in the bible where it doesn't mean the entirety of the whole.

SW

"Alexander did not "bear rule over all the earth". You neglect to understand the many ways how the word all is used and implied. You continually insist that Alexander conquered the whole earth when he didn't."

>This is true. Alexander conquered the Asian Middle East ..... and then he died

>The territory was then divided among his generals

>Why do you quote Spurgeon and Fortner frequently?

>Who else do you rely heavely upon for scriptural interpretation?

Hi SW,
I think we're confused on the concept "whole earth". In the first instance, Alexander conquered all that could be conquered. In the second, the one-world-government shall govern all that can be governed. It this second point where you diverge from that fulfillment. You have suggested the following:

• the Bible does not mean the whole planet but merely a large section of no certain size. Likewise, the beast will not rule the planet but will rule most nations in the Middle East and North Africa.
• the whole earth will worship the beast, it mostly refers to Islam across the world and esp. the nations of the Middle East, and North Africa, which are Islamic
• Some people insist that everyone on Earth will actually worship a global dictator
• Babylon the Great is Islam.

I would again suggest that your Islam centric doctrine is without foundation, and is demonstrated in your contrivances. -- Please research the U.N. Permanent Membership on the Security Council for the correct fulfillment.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

DaDad,



I

That's why I'm trying to make you understand that those words are used 7 or 8 different ways in the bible. But I don't think your getting it.
The ten horned beast tells us that that government will be limited to 7 kings and ten nations. Ten nations don't imply the world unless you fabricate it into it! It's not a world kingdom And it's not a world religion united by the pope. The two horned beast, which is symbolic of the two major sects of Islam, is a world religion. One beast is the politically united geographical area of the antichrist. Otherwise known as the coming ten nation kingdom of the Islamic beasts. (Middle East)

The other beast is symbolic of Islam. The religion of the two horned beast.

"It's not a world kingdom And it's not a world religion united by the pope."

This is true

The little horn's base of operations will be in the Middle East

Hi SW,
I know that we've strictly addressed the concept of whether the one-world-government will be global or regional. Your argument requires regional, thus you ardently attack that single point. However, one must understand that neither Alexanders, nor the end-times governance are regional.

Now, to expand that premise, one merely has to consider other prophetic components, which heretofore we haven't considered.


1. Daniel 2 is attributed to portend FOUR world empires. This is FALSE. Daniel 2:45 clearly and distinctly dictate FIVE: iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold, - 4,3,5,2,1. Please feel free to parse this sequence as inconsequential, random, lack of perspective, ill-informed, lazy, stupid, and wrong. -- Pick one, or make one up. -- However, I would propose that GODs word is precisely correct, and we're the ones who fall under the provided venacular.

2. Because Daniel 2 is FIVE, with the last one being "divided" then Daniel 7 MUST represent that "divided", because my second grade teacher told me that FIVE does not equal FOUR. Thus one could consider the following sequence of world history:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle
-- 6. Bear
-- 7. Leopard
-- 8. "dreadful"

Thus you should now discover your seven, and "an eighth who was and is not", because the U.N. has no geography, citizens with representative vote, army, etc.

This eighth will obtain the sovereignty of the three superpowers, along with the alliance of seven others. And as I've tried to suggest several times, this would be the Permanent Membership of the Security Council.


SW, there are so many holes in your argument that when you hold it up to the sun, there is no shadow. But please, if you want to believe something that has zero merit, please believe it all you want. However, you should also know that a teacher is held to a higher standard, so you may not want the "guilt" of misleading other less informed who may believe you.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

DaDad,

You said,




I'm totally impressed that you still contend that Alexander's kingdom was not regional. Maybe a few maps of those kingdoms would help? Visual aids are beneficial if your having trouble understanding the difference between global and regional. The word's earth and world,
can also mean, a territory, a geographical region, or an inhabited area. Knowing how these words are used throught the bible makes a big difference in your understanding of the end times. What you believe about these key words has a bearing on how one should perceive as truth,
and what the meaning and authors intent is. I can post the maps if you like?

Daniel 2:39  And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.[color="#0000FF"][/color]

41  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided;
but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

772 'ara` ar-ah' (Aramaic) corresponding to 776; the earth; by implication (figuratively) low:--earth, interior. But the word "inferior" also is "ara"which means 1) earth, world, ground. The word "inferior' in 2:39 is also the Aramaic word "ara" which means low:--earth, interior, below. It always implies less than.

Here are some examples in Daniel alone, where the word all is the same word and used in two different way's.

The "part of the whole" word all....

Daniel 3:7  Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

All the people means all those people within the Babylonian kingdom. Even then, I doubt that all the people in Babylonia heard the music. Neither did all people on earth worship the golden image.

Daniel 3:3  Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.

All the rulers under Nebuchadnezzer and provinces within the Babylonian kingdom. Not all the rulers of the entire earth.

Daniel 4:1  ¶Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.

In this verse, it seems like the reference to those within his kingdom, but it could be refering to the entire world because of the verses to follow...
2  I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
3  How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.



7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 2:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

What Spurgeon, Fortner, and I are saying is that there is not one standard use for the word word all in scripture. There are over 130 different words for all and it is used about 7 different ways. Neither is there one use/meaning of the word earth and world. This must be understood in verses where these words are used to get the proper meaning of the verse. This is especially true of the word inferior which is "land".

These are from the root word "erets"...

776 'erets eh'-rets from an usused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):--X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X natins, way, + wilderness, world.






I suppose you could say there are five.
This is how I see the sequence of kingdoms.

1.Head of gold...Babylon/Nebuchadnezzar.
2. Silver...Inferior kingdom of the Mede's
3. Bronze...Persian's
4. Iron and clay...Grecian.
5. The everlasting kingdome which destroyed all the others. And there is a lot of argument from here.


The word "inferior' is used to describe the second kingdom. This is the only place where the word arah is used for land.( out of 21). It's unusual for this word ara/land or ground to be used here. The Persian empire was not inferior to the Babylonian empire. The empire of the Medes was.


Iron and clay better describe the Arab Muslim world as opposed to the EU or Rome. Iron and clay don't mix and are "brittle". A better description of the un-united Arab/Muslim world as it is today.




If you insist, let's bring on the holes. Let's see where the merit stands. Let's see if it's you and the big shots have it right. And lets see where all the holes are. I'm willing.

The word "mixed" which is used to describe the iron and clay, is a chaldean term that means "arab". This alway's implies "arabia' or an "Arabian"! In Northern Africa alone there are about 262 Arab/Muslim tribes. Many are controlled by Muslim warlords.

HuH! Little words like mixed and inferior can turn a light on for someone not in denial!!!

SW

Hi SW,
You are really obsessing with this Islamic agenda.

Do you purport to re-write history such that we know have a brand new "Silver...Inferior kingdom of the Mede's"; and "3. Bronze...Persian's "?
Does you new version also contend that it was this "Persian" which conquered all the known world? Does your new version also discount Alexander's circumstance: "he was the man who wept because there were no more worlds to conquer..." ---W.W. Tarn, Alexander the Great, II, 262 Arr. 2.3.1-8 -- http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/mideast/0...eamgordion.html

You also have a problem with your math:
5. The everlasting kingdome which destroyed all the others. And there is a lot of argument from here.
In fact, there are FIVE world empires; and the SIXTH is the "everlasting".


SW, please allow me to suggest that your doctrine has NO scriptural substantiation whatsoever; you contrive arguments to make your case; and those arguments fail both math and logic.


Also, for your reference, this fifth "divided" kingdom has the Roman/Republic/Representative form of government. We see this today in Washington, state capital, county, and city. However, the last I knew, none sent taxes to the geography currently occupied by Italy, -- (ROME is DEAD).

In this this circumstance please allow me to suggest once again, that when the U.N. encompasses the worlds governance, it will not have individual representation. Thus the iron and clay will not stay together, and this new entity will not be democratic, but rather a most oppressive autocratic.


But far be it from me to change your or anyone elses mind on those things which they imagine.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

Dadad,

I'm going to let the scriptures thenselves translated in their own language do the talking for me. I use to believe a lot of the hogwash you do that was promoted by the big shots. It's when you use the words in the original languages that people like you don't like it because it goes against the status quo. So rather than face this head on and confront this furthur, you, like the big shots you would rather make snide remarks of judgementalism.

You explain to me why the word mixed means "arab" then!
You explain to me why the word inferior refers to the Persian empire when it was about three times the size of the Babylonian empire?
You mentioned that my doctrine has...



I substantiate my beliefs by what the words mean in their original language. that's logical to me. Where is your "substantiation"!

Hi SW,
I certainly do commend you for researching the original text, and I too believe it forms the basis for understanding. However, some texts have multiple meanings. And additionally, one should also consider the full context of both scripture and history. (I.e, the Daniel 7 "leopard" is actually a "tiger".)

Regarding the size of the empires, you miss the significance. Alexander ventured all the way into India in his search to conquer new kingdoms. But that's not shown on any maps -- because there were NO kingdoms to conquer. Thus he moved on.

Regarding "big shot" - "hogwash", please allow me to suggest that those points which I present are neither from some commentator, from some contrived agenda, nor from some contrived version of history.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

DaDad,

You said,




Then if you believe, you tell me why the meaning of inferior and mixed supports your theory? You're on!



Even if they do have multiple meanings, the translation of the full text is supported only by the meanings of the words in those verses. When it comes to supporting anythig by the different symbolic beast mentioned in scripture, then the argument becomes about the identity of those beast so we are best to stay within this text alone.




The size of the empires are what counts when the word inferior also means land. The size of the empires does matter when I say they are regional and you say they are global. You miss the significance!



Do I have to do your homework again and post the maps? They may be in the back of your bible?



AHH! Well it's all kind of the same!

SW

Hi SW,
One piece of "homework" which is the easiest to start with is the 2:45 sequence for which you already have my explanation. -- If we can start at this most obvious issue then it might help the discussion. So the question is:

Please provide the fulfillment of the: iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold; within the confines of the iron being with the clay for some period of time; and both why & how that "marriage" is dissolved. -- Please note the apparent FIVE "distinct" world empires in this presentation which appears to discount a "4a"/"4b" scenario (i.e., being the clay is positioned such as the bronze interrupts any "continuity" to the iron).

With Best Regards,
DaDad

Bro...We have already started. And your trying to take the easy way out.

How can we start with something else if you don't want to confront the word inferior and the word mixed so we can be on the same page. You are the one who brought up Daniel 2 and it's kingdoms. I am the one who told you about two very significant words. We must first resolve the issues we already have about verse 39 before we can move on with one another. Let's not put the cart in front of the horse.

You said that I already have your explanation on Daniel verse 2:45. It isn't much of an explanation. You can do better. Let's not get into history and more symbolism before we resolve other disagreements. That starts at verse 39. So to do this right we need to go there. Which your trying to avoid by me doing more homework for you.

You have not confronted my argument at all. Your trying to go around it. Please try again.

Sw

Hi SW,
My thought is that if one can assess the macro components, then we can work toward the micro. (I.e., one can parse the 4th place accuracy of the micrometer in great and encompassing detail, but if the component length is off by 1/2", that issue is moot.) Thus the request to evaluate verse 45.
With Best Regards,
DaDad

DaDad,

This is a thread I started...and your micro verses macronisms aren't working. Your avoiding the real issue becuase you have no answer and no argument about the inferior kingdom or why the word arab (mixed) is used to describe the fourth kingdom. I get this kind of cop out diversion from the experts too. We cannot move foward to verse 45 until we resolve our issues with verse 39 and then up from there.

So confront or cop out. That's how I see it.

SW

Hi SW,
Please allow me to suggest that truth is accurate in ALL points. As evidenced in the Garden of Eden, a lie only takes one false component among many true. Per our discussion, at best you only have one true component among many false. Thus one can only conclude that your doctrine (thus far) may not be defensible.

However, please feel free to have the discussion which this audience deserves, and prove your case by satiating all points. -- I choose the points, and you get to defend. Let the readers decide!

With Best Regards,
DaDad

PS I really don't care whose "thread" this is. If a protangonist is distorting scripture and history to arrive at some contrived fulfillment, I will maintain whatever defense of truth is required. -- But you can "cop out" if you want. Just make a decision.

DaDad,

You said,




You always have "suggestions. But I never see you move on. I not only challenge you but anybody else abot two words and you haven't taken the challenge to refute me out of fear that I will refute you.
I've been running into so many of you guys lately.

You were the one who posted Daniel 2:39. I replied with my thoughts about the inferior kingdom and you avoid it all the time and all the way. You don't dare confront it. You've coped out. I can only go to verse 45 uuntil you answer my questions. If, as you say, my doctrine may not be defensible, then why aren't you trying at all to refute it? It sounds to me like you think it's pretty easy!



That's fine with me bub! The words inferior=land and mingled=arab really is a problem for you isn't it. Like I said. A man named Kyle Williams has picked up on some of the blunders on Daniel 2 of our wonderous prophecy experts and used them to debunk the bible. So I can understand why I don't make any friends when it comes to some of these discussions. And just think, we haven't even gotten started!



We can discuss all the history you want as long as it starts at verse 38. But I'm losing interest with you.

So big daddy. I gave it my best shot and all I ask is that you honor my request to start our discussions at verse 38 before we can move foward to what you want to in verse 45...

God Bless,

SW

There are two beast, the first beast thats rises up is a political united nations system.... A UN IF YOU WILL....Everyone will not worship this beast, that is correct.... But when the second beast comes up(antichrist) the first beast will no longer be a world order political system.... It will turn into a religious system...

Everyone will not follow either of these beasts!! thats why there are elects.. But a big number and I mean a BIG NUMBER will follow the antichrist....

Hi SW,

Please feel free to proceed with your version of all those components which you would propose. However, I will similarly continue to refute those points which contradict both scripture and history.


And in this circumstance, please be aware that there are two paths to knowledge. The one which you have chosen is the most common:

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


The second one is the less traveled:

2 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, ...


As such, please allow me to suggest that you have neither Truth in this Chapter 2 scope, either by experience or by revelation; nor the integrity to assess those points which would contradict your agenda.

With Best Regards,
DaDad


PS One doesn't have spend a myriad of words parsing what the definition of "is, is", when the blue dress is available for all to see. -- And yes, you have a "stain".

Hi Nightmare,
You should probably be made aware that the U.N. has a Secretary General. Thus the organization and the person. As such one should not expect a "religious" affiliation.

And regarding those who follow the a/c, -- two thoughts:

1. Maslow identified the Five increment "Hierarchy of Needs". As such, when faced with no shelter, food, clothing, etc., most people will choose these over Christ.

2. If the church had any training, exercise, proper diet, practice, discipline, (much like basic-training), they would be better prepared to make their stand. However, when we pay one person to do the all above, (like watching at the gym), we are weak, no stamina, no fortitude, and will fail. -- Thus the "church" is unintentionally preparing us to fall. So if we're to be strong, we need to do this in our own efforts.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

I have to tell you big daddy. You have an awful lot of nothing to say and a host of ill advised suggestions. You opened up a can of worms when you quoted Daniel 2 and the worms are still out of the can. People use diversion tactics and try to derail a thread when their losers of a debate. Judgemental comment like yours are always a sure sign that you have been out done. Your no fun to debate with because you go nowhere. You don't debate you suggest and comment. You just make judgemental comments and snide remarks and have a bunch of useless suggestions. Your not my type! I'm all done with you!

See Ya!


sw

Hi SW,
Please allow me to suggest that I will gladly provide any substantiation to any of my statements. You on the other hand have provided an empire sequence which fails to match scripture and history:

Post #19
I suppose you could say there are five.
This is how I see the sequence of kingdoms.

1.Head of gold...Babylon/Nebuchadnezzar.
2. Silver...Inferior kingdom of the Mede's
3. Bronze...Persian's
4. Iron and clay...Grecian.
5. The everlasting kingdome which destroyed all the others. And there is a lot of argument from here.

When contronted with this discrepancy, you retreated into a tired "is, is" argument, and refused to defend your own words. As such, please note that although you accuse me of being "judgemental", I'm only holding you accountable for those things YOU have presented.

But to be fair, it's an impossible task defending any false doctrine, and you are smart to distance yourself from those who would challenge said.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

Didnt quite understand this....are you saying there will not be a religious system??? please explain

Hi NIGHTMARE,
When one considers the Revelation 13 first "beast", one should comprehend that the Leopard/Bear/Lion represents the three end-time superpower authorities under the one-world-government auspices. Secondly, the seven heads represent the seven world empires:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China

And because the U.N. is that entity which obtains the sovereignty of the three superpowers:

-- 8. "dreadful", U.N. -- (Please note that this beast is the eighth which "was and is not", because it has no geography, populous and individual vote representation, army, etc.)

Per the above, the "head" which is mortally wounded is Russia, as depicted in both Ezekiel 38&39, and Daniel 11:40-44.


And thirdly, the 10 horns represent both the three superpowers plus the additional seven in the U.N. Permanent Membership of the Security Council:

Current Members:
U.S.
U.K.
France
Russia
China

Nominated Members (as of 8/93):
Germany
Japan
Brazil
Nigeria
India



Thus, per the evidence provided, there is certainly a geo/political representation, but no overt religious affiliation. -- I believe that most would distort both scripture and history to arrive at a "Roman" foundation, which would probably account for the "religious" (i.e., Catholic) premise.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

Hey SW,
Where are you, and why don't you want to defend your rather "interesting" version of world empires? I'm sure the library shelves are full of Median Empire and Persian Empire accounts which you can cite.
With Best Regards,
DaDad

I don't think that the one world government exists yet. But the time is getting close. Think about this; if the all the world was beset with natural disasters, i.e.; earthquakes, floods, solarwinds, then the world would be thrown into chaos. A one world government would be needed to put an end to the chaos. It would be as if all of humanity's survival depended on it. Suppose it started with good intentions. Then it was taken over by someone evil. Someone who wanted to promote the mark of the beast for security reasons. Would that scenario fit both scripture and the world as we know it today?

Hi Freeman,
Nice to talk with you.

Please allow me to suggest that Israel was "birthed" as a nation in 1948, but the "conception" was actually 1924. So too, the one-world-government, exists today, and will fill that oppressive role in the very near future.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

Big Daddy,
I told you. I'm all done with you. I have no time for people like you. You don't answer any of my questions and all you have are snide comments and useless suggestions. Your not a very good debater. You and Stephen out to get along very well.

SW