http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/nation...x-marriage.html

Personally, I think it's about time, are we getting closer to the equality and understanding of and between all peoples? I hope so....

What in the world do you think Christian think??

I never said Christians think in one way or another, that would be absurd....

I have met Christians who are both for and against same-sex marriage, and members of both sides can use the Bible to prove either or.... especially when you take into account the numerous versions of the Bible.....

so I wasn't implying anything of that nature.

And people scoffed at the idea of amending the US constitution to leave marriage between 1 man and 1 woman only. It was to insure that politicaly activist judges like the ones in California would never do what they did today.

It's no longer a slippery slope. Today they jumped right off the cliff and state by state will fall prey to exactly the same activist rulings.

What a sham our republic has become. Democracy? HAH! What a farce. Every state that has had the propostition voted upon by "We the people" overwhelmingly voted against homosexual marriage. We speak our minds through the ballot box and then get slapped in the face as if our voice and input didn't matter.

Despotism and tyranny of a few appointed individuals took place today who consider themselves above us. A goverment of the people for the people and by the people. Ya right! More like a government by the people for the corporations, special interest groups, and lobbyists.

Good Lord come quickly.

BTW, I would NOT be surprised if the US is hit hard and soon. GWB is pushing his 2 state agenda in Israel as I type and then this in California. I'm just sayin' cause there's a pretty good track record so far of things happening in scenario like this.

well, actually, it seems more and more people, like myself, support same-sex marriage.

in a country that promotes equality, this shouldn't even be a problem...

and yes, you can vote on many things, but ones constitutional rights are protected, so that freedom of belief, religion and lifestyle cannot be taken away.

the US is not simply a Christian nation, or of any one religion, but consists of people of multiple faiths....

in is there constitutional right to believe what they want, which means that they don't have to follow a religion which bans homosexuality.

to deny them this right is what is killing our Democracy, not the lack of

and they aren't harming anyody, if two gay people marry, that doesn't harm me, but it does bring them joy, and it allows them to live their life, like anybody else.

A very aberrant decision

This further removes restraint against an unacceptable practice

The Lord's Word is very clear about His position against unnatural human relationships

The related adverse consequences are both temporal and eternal

Marriage is only a piece of paper deep

If you want to make a marriage holy, which god will allow this?

I think this whole same sex marriage thingy is just a way to get the same rights as anyone else, tax break and I think they deserves it.

Well done.

This is the first of your posts that I have read, DracoJesi--welcome to the forum. I found it like you apparently did--through a google search on a topic that I can't even remember now. I had a blast reading through the different forums and looking at the topics I was interested in. Hope you take the chance to look around and read. And I hope you have a peaceful time here, too. I know sometimes people seem defensive and even hostile, but it's only because they believe very strongly and are convinced that their faith is based on truth. (True of me, too--I'm not leaving myself out!)

I don't believe I know any wiccans. I know some people who know some people who know some wiccans . . . all joking aside, I believe you are the first wiccan I've encountered in any way, at least that I know of. It's funny that just today, I was flipping channels and came across a show that dramatized the experience of a family who had several spirits in their home, and the way they chose to rid the house of them was to call in a group of wiccans. It would be interesting to hear the complete story of what actually happened, but in the show, the spirits left--"crossed over," it was referred to. It seems that everywhere I turn on tv, I'm running into things like that. That and ufo and alien stuff.

Sorry to ramble--just wanted to welcome you to the forum. And again, I hope you enjoy your time here and don't get your feelings hurt by people's strong convictions. Take care,
Debbie

he does? I've heard Biblical arguments both for and against this subject.

but regardless, of Biblical interpretations, there is a little thing called "separation of church and state"

their can not be equality for all when one religion has authority over all the others



thanks, but I think it goes deeper than that...

Marriage is also spiritual, and it's not just a Christian concept either, but even if it were, I know some (although a few) homosexuals, who do claim the Christian faith.

so in any case it, I do think there is a spiritual level as well.

also, assume your same sex partner is dying, and you have to make some decisions, but they wont let you because your not next of kin, you have to get married first, but then they tell you that you can't get married

I forget what the current laws are for a Handfasting, or Pagan marriage, but I'm correct, there are no same sex restrictions, but I don't think we get as many rights either, which if you ask me is bull, it's just under a different religious structure.

but you shouldn't have to convert to get married.

thank you, I must say thats the best welcoming, ok the only welcoming I've gotten here.

I find it admirable that your at least willing to see what I have to say before shoving me out the door so to speak,

I just hope what you see on tv doesn't "paint" your whole perspective of Wicca,

personally, I'm a fan of Sabrina, she's hilarious, and cute, and you gotta love Salem, but the Witchcraft depicted there, is nothing like the real thing,

and don't worry, I grew up around religious hostility, mostly directed at me xd, I'm from Indiana, in a part were, well I'm pretty much the only Wiccan in a very conservative area xd (there is one other around here I met through a friend)

"he does? I've heard Biblical arguments both for and against this subject."

>You need to read for yourself and discover the truth on this issue ..... not just hear opinions.

"but regardless, of Biblical interpretations, there is a little thing called "separation of church and state"

>This is a "little" temporal human perspective only. There is also the "larger" separation built into the Lord's view. All need to discover what it is. Your eternal Life ..... or death is the issue.

"their can not be equality for all when one religion has authority over all the others"

>It is the Lord's authority that one must seek and discover, not a particular religion. If the Bible is truth and in fact the word of the Creator of the universe one needs to know it. What one does about it is the difference.

I have read it, and I think it could go either way

Temporal, as in relating to time, can you see the future, do you see the notion falling? I hope not, it it does, the US will become a Dictatorship.

Larger separation, why must we be separated by our differences? why can't we be united and appreciate our own individuality.

equality for all when one religion takes over? no, not those who aren't of the "norm" prescribed by that religion, homosexuals and others who have different viewpoints wouldn't be given the same rights,( not that they are now )

maybe some day one religion can unite us, but that religion is going to have promote the notion that there more than one way of interpreting the Divine not just one, and each person has the right to choose there own path.

or else it will never work out, diversity, different cultures, and viewpoints, it gives life flavor, keeps things from stagnating.

if you have to conform to someone elses view instead of being able to thing for yourself, why even bother living?

I've seen allot of things on here described as cults, now a cult is a gathering of people of the same beliefs, it's an organizational step toward religion, not all cilts brainwash people, but some do, and it seems that it is the brainwashing kind that is often referred to on this board, and under that notion,

your view that one religion, your religion should be the only one and that others should conform to it, is a cultic view, and it is prejudice.

thats not equality, it is monopoly, and the death of individualism.

DracoJesi,

The problem is that your flaunting an shoving down our throats, an unhealthy and sinful lifestyle. The liberals believe in stomping over my constitutional rights of not exposing my children to a sinful homosexual lifestyle. Now let me think? How many children are forced to read school textbooks about how Jane and Sue are trying to adopt a baby. Or else..How Bob and Bill are so in love that they feel a need to share their love with a child. On the far right we see a fracturing of constitutional rights. We see a judicial system that fails to do their homework when handing down their decisions.

But to this particular case? The ruling of the court yesterday ignored the will of the People who approved Proposition 22. So how much weight does the will of the people have in our constitution? The framers saw fit to make a workable constitution for the people and by the people. The judges who voted against the people should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

BTW- If you research and study historical documents concerning our framers and our founders you would realize that this nation was founded under Christian principles. And another falsehood that is being spread? That God approves of homosexuality and so we Christians should do the same. Guess what? God does not support, condone, or give the thumbs up on homosexuality. So please provide some scriptual proof to prove your claims? Christians generally believe "that we are to hate the sin but love the sinner." Loving the sinner does not mean that we support them in a sinful lifestyle.

We must raise our voices and be heard. Traditional marriages between one man and one woman is being attacked. We have to stop this attack before it's to late. One of the lies being spread is this; that in order to be a good Christian g/b we must be tolerant of all sins in all people. (Ding Dong) The bell just rang and that last thought is absolutely wrong and not true. We are not to, nor should we ever be tolerant of sin.

BTW- Welcome to the forum. I understand that you are not a Christian but since you suggested that some Christians support homosexuality, would you mind providing scriptural proof for your claim? I don't care what your friends may approve of but what I do care about is Gods approval rating.

Gods Blessings,

Al

You certainly give new meaning to "the falling away of the church". Along with Massachesets, now California's destruction is completely assured.

LEVITICUS 18: 24-30...

‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people. ‘Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God.’”

-7

I am not shoving anything down your throat, I never told you you had to be gay, all I said was that everyone should have the right to get married, not just heterosexual couples.

voting shouldn't matter at this point because it goes against the constitution, and human rights,

the first ten amendments, or The Bill of Rights, if you will, cannot be voted against, meaning those rights cannot be takin away, it should have never have been voted on in this first place.

Separation of Church and State, you need to allow others the privileges they give you, and there cannot be equality if any one religion is given power over the others.

and no, this nation was not founded under Christian principals, it has founded on religious freedom, of all religions.

and "Under God" came much later.

in fact, it is suggested that most of the founding fathers, were in fact, Freemasons, not Christians.
but does that really matter here?

and if you think it is unethical, that is your opinion, but it is ones right to get into any relationship they want, The United States is not just a Christian nation, but a nation of many religions.

nobody said you had to sleep with a member of the same sex, and they are not hurting you any.

and yes, I have talked to Christians who support same-sex marriages, most of my family are Christian , and they support it, so the next time I have a conversation with them or any of my other Christians friends , I'll ask them if I can use a copy of the convo, and we'll talk about it.

but you can't prove all Christians are anti-gay either.

those Judges aren't ashamed, nor should they be, because they defended the constitutional rights of the homosexual community, you can't have equailty and religious freedom and then tell somebody they can't get married because your god won't allow it.

and how do you know God is against, have you talked to him?

there are many versions of the bible, so much of it has been changed, how do you really know what he wants?

and you call it traditional?

the concept of Marriage existed long before Christianity, and this day there are multiple religions who practice Marriage, therefore marriage shouldn't be limited to Christian standards, unless in a Christian church....

your God is not the only god out there, to you he might be, but to others he isn't

what ever happened to "Love Thy Neighbor"
or "Thou Shall Not Jusge, For We All Are Judged In The End"

if you believe in God, and that his word must be followed (speaking in the Christian concept here), then what happened two those two quotes?

isn't it Gods place to judge them, not yours, and isn't this life, in many ways (Christian viewpoint) a test of faith?

well Jesus, talked to prostitutes, and showed them compassion, and said "Do Unto Others As You'd Wish Done unto you"

so yes, you've protested against homosexuals, talked about how they are against God, because of a few select lines in he Bible, which may have been taken completely out of context, but yet you have completely disregarded everything Jesus was preaching about, "Love Thy Neighbor" show compassion for all peoples, even prostitutes and murderers, help your fellow man, don't wish him ill, or harm him, way to go.

so, yeah, I'm the unethical one here, I show compassion to people, even people completely different than me, even homosexuals, I talk to them, am there friend, I'm there for them, and I don't judge them, and I respect other religions, I study them, I give things, and people a chance.... so yeah, I'm evil

where in that passage does it mention homosexuality?

Draco Jesi & Biblescholar, This is a Christian forum, not a general religion forum. Promoting the wiccan religion or the homosexual agenda here is not allowed. They both clearly violate the dictates of scripture. While it is ok to discuss topics such as these, to promote what the bible calls sin and abomination or following false gods and goddeses is not allowed here. There are any number of forums out there to take care of your desires to debate or influence people to what you believe. This is not one of them.

it seems that you don't understand the difference, between promoting my Agenda and debating.

I am Debating, I never once, in this discussion use anything to Promote Wicca, my discussion was of separation of church and state, as well as ones constitutional rights.

as for homosexuality, you can use the bible in a debate, either for or against it...

and I never said, that you have to be gay or engage in gay relations, I am not promoting homosexuality, I never said, go sleep with the same sex.

I am promoting equality, and homosexuality just happens to be an example of how this country doesn't have it.

and again, you can argue that is is or isn't against God, but neither can be proven in definite. there have been arguments for both sides based on the Bible,

look at nature, there are gay dogs, and cats, squirrels and other things...

some dogs, including mine, like cats for some reason beyond my comprehension.

but again, where did I ever use Wicca in this thread, I didn't unless someone asks or it's the topic I usually don't, unless theres a comparisons that can be made such as in the persecution thread.

and this is the Current Events forum, not the Bible study forum, I simple posted about the event and asked if it meant we were on the way for equality of all peoples, as I consider this to be a crucial step.

I never asked if it was wrong or right, nor did I ever give my opinion on it until it was brought up.

I never said you had to agree, but the Law, and Church are two separate things.

and you give me the respect I give youu and capitalize that W on Wiccan, I capitalize Christian and bible, do I not?

I am not promoting what call "false" gods either, so I don't know where that came from

Certainly the Jews that wrote the Old Testament thought homosexuality was wrong.

They said "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB).

However, the biggest problem with religion is change.

The Muslims are like this too - against homosexuality.

But it seems the Jews today are a bit smarter. According to my Dad, in recent years, the Jews reached a conclusion that they no longer felt homosexuality was a bad thing, so to speak.

Yes, this obviously contradicts what they thought thousands of years ago.

Now you can argue that the Jews today that think homosexuality is okay are not the Jews from thousands of years ago that wrote the Bible, so they are completely different people.

Conclusion/point.

The Jews/Judaists have changed their views on homsexuality; the Christians and Muslims have not.

Here's the Islamic side argument.

Critics such as Muslim lesbian activist Irshad Manji, Muslim Ehsan Jami and the Dutch Muslim-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali have criticized Islam's attitudes towards homosexuals. Most international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, condemn Islamic laws that make homosexual relations between consenting adults a crime. Since 1994, the United Nations Human Rights Committee has also ruled that such laws violated the right to privacy guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. However (except for nations such as Turkey that were required to change their laws to be eligible to join the European Union) most Muslim nations insist that such laws are neccesary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue.

Now, as for Christianity, the arguement is pretty split. A lot of Christians aren't against homosexuality, I think, because they are simply more anthropologically nicer people. On the contrary, they may also feel that a loving God wouldn't punish someone for the way they were born.

Get this, too.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB).

How do we know this verse was applying to homosexuals and not heterosexuals?

In fact, my opinion is, God may punish heterosexuals for acting homosexual, but not to homosexuals.

In other words, God doesn't punish or judge you by the way you were born, but by what you do.

Certainly we can find God punishes heterosexuals for acting homosexual, but why punish homosexuals for something they were genetically born?

It wasn't until 1976 that homosexuality was "officially" removed from the psychological list of mental disorders. But you know what? Science has changed from 1976, religion has not. (The exception to this are Jews.)

Neal C.

Mmehhh.

I don't think children being exposed to homosexuality (like in the form of story books) are in any way affected by it. If it could be shown that science says studies have shown heterosexual children being exposed to homosexual aren't affected by it, would that be a convincing argument?

In fact, it might be better to be exposed to homosexuality for the 1st time as a child than as an adult.

This is similar to the argument that children whom are exposed to cats will grow used to them than if they encountered them as adults and can be allergic to them. And other such animals...

But if the argument was, children exposed to homosexuality will more likely become homosexuals themselves, then I would say no, that is utter nonsense, because sexual orientation is more genetically pre-determined. Similar to favorite colors.


I don't think so, it's possible to accept homosexual marriage without attacking heterosexual marriage.

By the way, our planet is undergoing mass overpopulation. China implemented this 1-child policy, since 1986 or so. Has anyone stopped to think that the increase in homosexuality in humans is God's solutions for world overpopulation?

I suppose if the burden of proof wasn't on you, that would require DracoJesi to "disprove" he did do something. (Or prove he didn't do something.) That is, promote wiccan religion and homosexual agenda.

But if the burden of proof was on you, then that could mean you are able to show which posts was it that supported your belief of promoting wiccan religion and homosexual agenda. Then there would be evidence that showed what DracoJesi allegedly did.


So long as you understand that for a person trying to remove a belief you currently hold, their burden of proof is met when and if they show that the burden of proof for the belief you currently hold has not been met.

Oh oh, I know. No where!

Neal C.

The question of gay marriage, no gay marriage, whatever...is about to become inconsequential.

When Americans begin wondering where their next scrap of bread for a meal is coming from, gay marriage just won't be all that high on the list of priorities.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Righteousness learned through the judgments of God? Very interesting. And this is exactly what is beginning to happen to America. Droughts, floods, and tornadoes are just the tip of the iceberg.

God will deal with the sins of sexual immorality, pride, innocent bloodshed (abortion), promotion of violence, and even disrespect and rebellion against parents when a nation refuses to repent of such things, and the people of God are mute.

Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalts a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

Freedom does not mean being able to do whatever one wants, when one wants to do it.

Freedom means curbing our wills in line with will of the Creator God of the universe (revealed in the scriptures) who is absolute holiness, absolute goodness, and absolute justice, while being absolute in grace, mercy, and truth.

His mercy is why we still even possess the technology to discuss these things in this forum. His mercy is why we are not all (as of yet) standing in lines for food rations.

California seems to be leading the pack in pointing proud fingers in the face of a Holy God and screaming, "Keep your morality (and design) to yourself!" If I lived there, I would be seriously praying whether or not God wants me to "get out of Dodge." Yesterday would not be too soon.

I'd like to see the reactions of a parent to a six-year-old with similar attitude when told not to play in a street full of speeding cars. The action would be swift and decisive.

You see, SIN (in this thread--homosexuality) is not just stealing a cookie from the cookie jar, it is playing with fire while crouching down in the middle of an expressway.

Sin is eternally deadly. It brings forth death. (James 1:15)

God would not be loving if he did not do whatever is necessary to put as much space between us and SIN as possible, or to go with the analogy, as much space between us, fire, and the expressway as possible.

Well...judgments have a way of doing that. And they are coming to an America near you.

Cross-bearing Christians: Prepare by seeking God in prayer and fasting. Prepare by consuming his word from the scriptures. Listen to his Holy Spirit and do what He says.

All others: Prepare by realizing that your sin has put you an enemy of a Holy God. Come to a point of grieving over your sin and repenting of it. (Decide to run from sin and call it what God calls it--rebellion.) Acknowledge the depths of the love of God in that while you were still stuck in sin, he sent his perfect, holy, righteous Son, JESUS CHRIST, to be spat upon, beat, scourged, and finally nailed to a splintery, wooden, Roman cross until dead, so that God's justice could be satisfied and his wrath pass from you. Simply confess Jesus to the world as your Lord and Savior. You will be saved! Run to him!

(I shudder to think of the end of those that look at this sacrifice with disdain, walking over it like it's a cheap rug.)

May the Lord have mercy, for it is about over for America.

Safely in Christ,

Mike

P.S. Need a scripture that's all too clear about homosexuality? Read Romans Chapter 1:18-32. Here it is: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=50;

You know, BonoMike, in my other religious marriage vs. legal marriage thread, we've established there's no such thing as "religiously married."

This is a legal thing.

So California legalized "legal marriage."

Still doesn't touch a thing on "religious marriage."

But I'm still determined there is such a thing as religious marriage.

2 homosexuals want to get legally married? That's fine. But they'll have no luck at getting religiously married.

So they want a tax break, let them.

Oh. Yes, I addressed more the root cause of the whole issue.

As far as the law goes, our founding fathers established the law based on the laws of God found in the scriptures. The laws of the scriptures do allow us to treat all others with respect--you know, love everyone else as much as you love yourself. Treat them the way you would want to be treated.

All that applies here, however, it must be in alignment with the laws of God, i.e. no homosexuality to begin with...certainly no gay marriage, lawful or otherwise, which kind of sidesteps the issue.

For me to knowingly condone sin that God condemns is to ask for the same judgments to consume me as well.

Therefore, it's not "live and let live." It's "live in accordance with the truth of God's word, or we all go down in flames together." Or, "align our laws with God's" (or the same result applies).

Where there is no God, there is no law, for there exists no foundation from which to establish them.

Do you see where I'm going?

For me to sanction homosexuality by lending credence to gay marriage is to put myself at risk of the judgment of God. He does not bend like we do.

Therefore, legalizing gay marriage is a direct detriment to my family's well-being.

It will eventually require even more of my money going out the door in insurance when they start going to the doctor for worn out body parts used in a manner unintended by the designer (I think you know what I mean.)

Go ahead and open the door. Go ahead and think this just a legal, monetary issue.

Open the door for man-child marriage.

Open the door for man-dog marriage.

Anything goes, as long as it doesn't hurt you or me, right?

That's the point--it is going to hurt you, me, and everyone else financially, morally, and in the end--death by God's judgment.

Again, may God have mercy.

In Christ,

Mike

Sadly, there is some truth to it. Like how slavery for Blacks were always legal until 1865. But you know, we waited until 1865 for consensus to step up and say "slavery is not right."


Or in other words, the Golden Rule applies to homosexual marriage as much as it applies to heterosexual marriage.


If there is no God, there is still law.

This is why we have atheist police officers, atheist lawyers, athiest judges, etc.


Why should God punish you (or someone) for neither supporting nor going against gay marriage?

No Bible Scholar....it is an IN YOUR FACE GOD act. Equal rights have been offered them but they want marriage. Marriage is a union sanctified by our Father. He DOES NOT SANCTIFY HOMOSEXUALITY!



.........Whirlwind

So he's talking about piece-of-paper legal marriage and you're talking about religious marriage.

Clearly this is proof that there is such a thing as religious marriage. Or more than 1 types of marriage.

For example, ever heard of atheist marriage? Yes, even atheists have marriage.

Couldn't you argue to an atheist "You must somehow believe in God if you and your atheist spouse get married!"

So there is such a thing as irreligious marriage.

I support them in regards to them getting the same tax break as their rights.

I do not support them for going to the altar and make a circus out of the church

I can see who would want to support this. Divorce Court lawyers. muhahahaha

Uh oh... I expect something bad to happen to California. Wild fires, earthquakes...
Nothing good! God is not mocked.

He never intended men to marry men and women to marry women.
Thank God, they don't reproduce!

What I can't stand is that men always ISOLATE the sin of homosexuality from the other sins listed in 1 Corinthians;

that is:
- fornicators
- adulterers
- idolaters
- effeminate
- abusers of themselves with mankind
- thieves
- coveters
- drunkards
- revilers
- exortioners

Men are judged in our courts because they are THIEVES (they steal, one of the 10 commandments: thou shalt not steel), because they first COVETED (first comes coveting, then the theft, or worse, the death, or sometimes, (thou shalt not covet, one of the 10 Commandments), REVILING (slander, false accusation, FALSE WITNESS (one of the 10 commandments: thou shalt not bear false witness).

Men are also judged because they are DRUNKARDS (is not drinking a driving an offence punishable by the law, and the cause of the death of many innocents?)
and is not EXTORTIONISM like stealing through lies (one of the 10 commandments: thou shalt not lie)?

Unsaved men will be judged one day about the above.

Saved men who still indulge these sins will suffer loss of reward and these "works" will be burned like hey, stubble, because the foundation is bad and they will make it to heaven, only their works will be burned up, as a man escapes with his bare life.

Example: a guy spent his life to pay for a house, furniture, a car a boat... He worked all week ends to make furniture, fix his car... One night, he wakes up and smells smoke, but it is too late for him to take anything, so he leaves in pajamas, just in time to see his house crumble, and with it all he worked for his entire life... but his life is spared... In a way, "all his works" are burned...

So are the fruits of the CARNAL believer after salvation.

I like what my Bible Handbooks (from MERRIL F UNGER) says:
There exists two kinds of service: One is illusrated by gold, silver and precious stones, built by the spiritual believer, and is indestructible by the fire of judgement. 12 The other is set forth by wood, hay, stubble, built by the CARNAL Christian. This is destructive and will NOT STAND UP before Him whose eyes are like a flame of fire (Revelation1:14). The issue for the truly born-again servant will be either reward for the spiritual believer, 14, or loss of reward for the CARNAL believer. 15 However the fleshy worker will still be saved, since the issue is not sin, condemnation or eternal life. Yet he will be saved so as throught fire WITH ALL HIS WORKS BURNED UP, as a man escapes with his bare life.

BE NOT DECEIVED, GOD IS NOT MOCKED...

Whatever we sow, we will reap. Twisting scriptures and REMOVING inconvenient scriptures from the word of God just because they point to our sins, will not change anything in the eyes of God who sees everything!

If carnal believers think they can go to Heaven and still indulge in their sins, they have something else coming: sin will REMAIN AT THE DOOR OF HEAVEN, where it will be burned up, just like garbage was burned outside the walls of Jerusalem.

Who can imagine Heaven with THIEVES? OR IDOLATERS, OR EXTORTIONISTS??

If no thieves in heaven, then no revilers.
If no revilers, than no extortioners.
If no extortioners, than no idolaters.
If no idolaters, no effeminate.
Etc...

Period.

So much drama over a piece of paper...

AMEN! Whirlwind!

Unfortunately, it's impossible to describe a rainbow to a blind man.

May the Lord give us all eyes to see, ears to hear, and wisdom to discern the truth.

In Christ,

Mike

Open your eyes and try using them... it says "abominations"... that includes "homosexuality", a "man sleeping with a man", or a woman (Lesbian) of the "unnatural way".

THE SIN OF ABOMINATION

http://www.pbministries.org/articles/cook/sin_of_abomination.htm


TODAY, within the confines of Christianity, it is evident that apostasy is running rampant. There is a liberal element that was spawned by the fathers of modernism and neo-orthodoxy that were practicing adulterers, moral perverts, and promoters of homosexuality. Yet, these same men have been accepted by "legitimate" Christian churches as sound theologians and stalwarts of the faith. This acceptance has promoted the formation of denominational churches formed with the express purpose of being havens for active homosexuals. As examples; the United Methodist Church and Southern Methodist University (SMU) have gone as far as to question whether Paul really condemned homosexuality in the New Testament. It is also estimated that there are as many as 10,000 Roman Catholic homosexual priests in this country alone. The United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Church, the Episcopal Church, and the World Council of Churches support the active participation of homosexuals not only within its membership but also among it leadership. Furthermore, the Foundry Methodist Church (United Methodist) in Washington D.C. (the church attended by Bill and Hillary Clinton) described the apostle Paul as "a self-hating gay man," praise homosexual marriage, and speculated that King David (a man after God’s own heart) might have been bisexual and Jesus Christ might have been a homosexual "drag queen." Lest we think that Baptists are excluded from this ungodly perversion, a Southern Baptist Church in Austin Texas has a "practicing" homosexual deacon. Also a group of over 60 ministers in Madison Wisconsin signed an agreement supporting the practice of lesbians and gays: the following is a quote from their statement of agreement.

We believe it is time to eliminate all policies and practices which create barriers and restrictions to the full participation of gay and lesbian Christians in all the privileges and responsibilities of church membership. Recognizing that our churches still speak and act out of our longstanding prejudices.

Once again this writer is simply amazed that sin can be labeled as mere "prejudice." As a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ I firmly state that am not prejudice towards homosexuals; however I do hate them for what they are and for what they represent. Such people are a threat to the moral fiber of society; they are a blight to the land; and, they are a danger to our children. The government and courts of this country have forced the homosexual lifestyle on us as being an acceptable practice. The homosexual has "come out of the closet" to invade our homes, our schools, the sanctity of our moral fiber, and, yes our churches. May God forgive us for the same sin that Sodom and Gomorrah were judged guilty of.

Such a statement might seem harsh, cruel, and even offensive coming from a Baptist minister. But let us examine the Bible that we may obtain a proper perspective. Although an examination of the Bible would tend to make the truth evident concerning homosexuality, nevertheless such an examination assumes that one accepts the Bible to be the inerrant infallible Word of God and the final authority on all issues that God chose to communicate to us. But such is not necessarily the case! Many church-going professing Christians do not have a proper understanding of the truth due to perverted versions of the Bible and a liberal philosophical view of society. Often the practice of the church is determined by a liberal interpretation of the United States Constitution and an acceptance of the depraved morals and standards of society. But let us proceed to the Word of God.

First, homosexual conduct was "a grievous sin" in the days of the Patriarchs. Such sin resulted in the total destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the annihilation of all inhabitants therein. Genesis 19:24-28 shows the judgment brought on Sodom and Gomorrah for their sin (or prejudice). "24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. 26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD: 28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." Yet, one could argue that this was a cultural judgment or a dispensational Old Testament application and does not today apply to the church. But notice what the apostle Peter has to say about God’s actions regarding these cities; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly (2 Peter 2:6). God’s wrath was poured out against these cities for their "grievous sin" of homosexuality. "4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof 9 And they said, Stand back And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door" (Genesis 19:4-9).

Here (v. 5) we see that the men that approached Lot’s home sought to "know" the men that had come to visit. This biblical word "know" carries with an understanding of close intimate sexual relations. Furthermore, the corruption of the city was total in that "both old and young, all the people from every quarter:" sought relations with Lot’s guests. Lot was not ignorant of the requests made, he did not misunderstand the nature of the demands, it was not about hospitality, it was about homosexual rape. Lot sought relief within his own home, but, the carnality of the crowd would not be satisfied even with the offer of the two virgin daughters of Lot. Their perversion was absolute, not alternate lifestyle. Their lust of the flesh sought out the innocent and manifested its total depravity.

The reaction of the crowd is similar to the response of many churches. The crowd said to Lot, "Who are you to judge our activities," you are not God. Likewise, people of today say, "who are we to judge" we are not God. The point is, that God did judge these men for their depravity and gave them as a example to us. We judge because God judged; and, He has given us an example as to what our actions towards the sin of homosexuality should be. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude describes their "grievous sin" as "going after strange flesh" (Jude 7) or the desire for other men.

Second, homosexual conduct under the Law of Moses was considered a capital crime. Let us not forget that the moral law has not been abrogated and that the moral law is holy, just, and good, given to us for our learning. In Leviticus 18:22 we read that we are commanded "not to lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is an abomination." Scripture says such homosexual relationships are an abomination that is punishable. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Lev. 20:13).

Third, the New Testament is as abundantly clear in the condemnation of homosexual conduct. To the church at Corinth, Paul wrote, "9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6: 9-10). In this passage Paul uses the word "effeminate" (Greek; malakos) to define the actions of someone that is totally enamored with their sexuality or someone that is a male prostitute. The word translated "Sodomites" is the Greek word arsenokoitai and is translated "homosexual." Although the first word used in this passage may be translated "male prostitute," it does not mean that Paul was here condemning male prostitution (although prostitution is elsewhere condemned). The second word describes homosexual conduct, and, therefore, Paul condemns those that engage in homosexual activity for which they shall not inherit the kingdom of God due to such participation.

The classic passage which deals with homosexual conduct is found in Romans 1:18-28. "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

A careful read of this passage "indicates that the righteous indignation of God is directed toward those who reject the clear evidence of God’s existence and power as revealed in nature." In the observation of nature it is not the normal practice of the lower creatures to conduct themselves in sexual relations with one of the same gender. Such observation indicates that homosexual activity is the result of the desires of the flesh and the depravity of man. Yet, it is God that deals with those that conduct themselves in such a depraved manner. He dealt with Sodom and Gomorrah and he deals with depraved men today. These are given up to uncleanness, to their lustful hearts, to the dishonor of their own bodies and by doing so they call God a liar and substitute their own sophisticated lie for the truth. They worship the pleasure of their own self-desire; they serve themselves instead of God (Rom. 1:24-25). And what is the result of their actions? Are they struck down dead in their perverted bed of immorality? No. God has given them up to their own vile affections; to their man-to-man and woman-to-woman relationships. To the very things that are contrary to the revealed will of God in nature. They are turned over to a debased mind to do unnatural things receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which is due them.

In conclusion, this article is not intended to attack the "non-Christian" homosexual (for they shall receive their just reward), although there are no Christian homosexuals, but, this article intends to set the record straight concerning those churches that support the active participation of homosexuals within their fellowship. There is no possible way that a duly constituted church of the most holy God can support or justify any homosexual member. This is described by Scripture as an abomination punishable by death. Let God rain down on any church that supports or identifies itself with homosexual activities the same punishment that resulted in the death of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Christian is to hate sin and any such person that would flaunt their depravity and justify the sin of homosexuality. Likewise, let the elect of God speak out with righteous indignation against all that support and justify such sin. May the true man of God flee from any church which actively supports or condones homosexuals, as Lot fled the city of abomination.

No! This world and all who love it are getting closer to the floods of Noah and the fires of Sodom an Gomorrah.


26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

1 Thessalonians 5
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.


The son of man is here and about ready to be revealed. And the world will languish and fade away.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.

Who is here?

Same sex marriage

Maybe the abomination of desolation is a gay priest/preacher, lol. Our bodies are the temple of the HS, sooo. When you see him standing in the temple. 0_0

I doubt it, but, interesting connotations at least!

Institutional ministers get their power from the state...yet they often won't abide by the very laws that protect their religious rights. How long before those who follow the worldly way are called upon to pony up?

John

"I used to be against gay marriage, until I realized I didn't have to have 1."

LOL

well to me the bible is quite plain but for those that either partake of the sin or compromise, they will not see or accept any other viewpoint. homosexuality is very difficult to share the gospel with because quite simply the one group who they fear who they know can have an effect on the lifestyle and who they know will judge it is christ.

but just a piece of paper? they who quote such have no understanding of the true reason for marriage. dont forget also that marriage is and was the first form of government.

but aside from that sodom was destroyed not because they were having parties but because of the homosexuality that was rife. lot had virgin daughters - they didnt want to bed them but the males that were new in the city.

denmark was the first country to recognise same sex partnerships (note the use of this term nowadays instead of girlfriend/boyfriend, spouse, wife, husband etc).

god has always been quick to judge the nation that partook of mass homosexuality and treated it as a viable alternative and god has and does still use invasion as a judgement. denmark is having a lot of trouble with islam because, i believe, they have corrupted their youth and their country and treated with equality the homosexual lifestyle.

this is slowly becoming the norm and no one country is immune with this radical political movement.

matthew 24:38 has now been given a different slant - they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.

why should an emphasis be placed on marriage in this context? wasnt this always the case? in part yes but homosexuality had risen to such an extent that they allowed marriage of the same sex.

maranatha

That's a story you want to tell your grandchildren. The story of love that could not be consumated publicly. It will teach them that love is patient.

That kind of love is evol.

So when Jesus said it would be like the days of Noah where people were marrying and given into marriage.
He wasn't kidding!

WOW! I never thought of those scriptures in that fashion. I mean, think about it, Christ was probably more so including in His words "homosexual marriage" occurring in the days of Noah and before "cometh the Son of Man" (the end of our current age)... particularly since "heterosexual marriage" (though still occurring) is not a desire for MOST heterosexual couples because today they prefer to live in sin, marriage-less unions. I mean, look at all the heterosexual Hollywood Celebs (i.e. Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, etc.) paving the way with the latest trend of debased unions and pumping out "bastard" children... YET, most significantly the marriage issue that is in our faces daily is GAY MARRIAGE, not heterosexual marriage. This truly says we are living in the End Times, and the clock is about to expire.

Good angle on this point, MMarc.

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