What biblical evidence do yall have to show that the Battle we call the Battle of Gog and Magog happens before the 1000 year reign of Christ, when the Book of Revelation 20:7-10 tell that it will happen afterwards. Also Ezekiel 38 just says "After a long time(1000 years?) you will be summoned. In the last years(before eternity) you will enter a land that has been restored from war and regathered from many peoples(all redeemed), to the mountains of Israel, which has long been a ruin. They were brought out from peoples and all of them now live securely(reign of Christ would be much more secure than the Israel of Today). Just thought I'd ask cause I only see reason to believe there one battle of such.

it says that the land is restored from war. not going through it. They are living securly. Nothing about Israel today is Secure. ANd I don't believe when God says in His perfect Word that they are secure, he was talking about a false security from the AntiChrist! I mean they are really secure, like in the arms of their King(YEshua)Yes I know this is taken to mean the Jew, BUt in the end the jews and the gentiles we will be the same, just like we are suppose to be now. Even though some teach otherwise. And christians come from all countries and walks of life. Well I see Isaiah 17 happing cause it could, but there is too much biblical scripture to say Gog is before the 1000 years!

Dear EndTimeCalling,.....Look for the topic called "The Battle of Ezekiel 38-39"........In the General bible study section......You should find answers to your question............IF the info is not adequate.....I can add more, that would solidify the topic at hand..............God Bless........................benny

which topic forum?

According to the old testamentic prophecies such a war or battle would take place during the period that God's power centered in Sion, will establish itself. People will resist, but this will prove fruitless. And battles such like the topic starter mentions, will make weapons unnecessary, for no-one will be able to oppse God's rule from Sion (making Sion a holy mount as well) so that they will be reshaped into agricultural tools.

PRAISE GOD, End-Time Calling!

I really like it when someone reads the word for what it says, without any special glasses of a certain persuasion on his face.

Yes, there is nothing in Ezek. 38-39 to indicate that somehow Israel is deluded in the peace mentioned there. Why? Cause God really steps up to the plate for them when the flood comes from the North. I wouldn't call that a false peace either!

Some special verses: Ezek. 38:7, 38:18, 39:29.

However, Zechariah 14 could very well take place right before the millennium. (Isaiah 17 could be somewhere near the beginning of the tribulation?)

What do you think?

In Christ,

Mike

Yes I would def. Agree. Zach.14 sounds like it would be RIGHT before the millinium and Isaiah 17 could be in all respect in the next few months if things keep on going down the same path. Which as you said may very well be RIGHT before the tribulation.
And Benny I didn't ask for a reference to another post,I asked what evidence(BIBLICALY) some has for their belief or claims of this happens other than when Rev. 20 says. Cause I see or have never seen a verse in the bible that says there will be two Gog battles, just one and Rev. 20 makes it very clear when that will happen. The word of God is perfect and there are not any mistakes in it. therefore if it says there will be peace then there will be peace. Not a false peace. That doesn't sound very secure like the scripture indicates is the case!
This is the post now and the other is over-written and watered down. No one whom is new will want to read a million page argument to find out the truth.

So you guys think that ezekial 38 & 39 only comes to pass at or near the millinium.......I ask you a question........when satan gathers people from the for corners of the earth........does he commit this act for the purpose of taking cattle and goods, to take a spoil....or is it for the purpose of destroying the saints?..........................................................................................................benny

No I think it happens After the millinium just like the bible says.
Read Rev. 20: 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I can't imagine needing more evidence than the Bible own words!!!

10 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land." 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages [d] will say to you, "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" '

I think this says enough....BUT

The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of [b] Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush [c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you.
I seems to me that regardless of what reason they think they are coming for, it is God Himself whom will drawn them in.
As a matter of fact the scripture DOES NOT use the word saint or jew or hebrew or anything to describe a certain people. They are decribed as a nation whos peolpe were gathered from the nations, recovered from war, living in safety. Doen't sound like now, or a false peace tomorrow does it.
BUT!!!! This for sure doen't sound like it could happen tomorrow!!
17 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. 18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his brother. 22 I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.'

Wow all the mountains will overturn, cliff crumble and every wall will fall yet life will just go on and then later the trib happens ? you must be reading something else if you think that could happen tomorrow and then life go on to see the tribulation and the rest. When if I'm not mistaken The mountains will still be here when christ returns so that the nations may cry out to them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb!
And the nations will Know that HE is LORD, thats not what the bible says will happen in the trib. Seems to me they will think someone else to be God. Someone false. Someone whom does such great signs that most of the world will think he is God without a doubt in their minds. In fact they will not just think He's God, they will worship Him as God and take a mark to prove their loyalty to Him on their face or hand. Doen't sound like what ol' Ezekial was talkin bout' now does it!

This whole thing is why I stopped even writing on this topic. No one would even write back when, years ago, I asked about an explaination on this timeline.

People pray for and watch for the battle to end all battles, the last and final one that brings on the coming of the Lord and beginning of the new shiny times where everything is good forever.....they talk about the 144,000 and who they are that are being sealed and I don't understand their timeline at all looking at Revelation. Are we awaiting the time that Satan is bound in chains and there is peace ofr 1,000 years or are we waiting for the Gog war? These are two different times.seperated by 1,000 years.

Are we saying that we are in the 1,000 years and are being ruled by Christ and the sealed 144,000 who were killed on His behalf (but if so where is the peace), or are we agreed that we are before that peace and are awaiting not only the sealing of the rest of the 144,000 but the 1,000 years of peace as well BEFORE Satan is then released and the final Gog war. If THAT is the case, we got a LONG way to go.....

I mean....simple me....there are two times mentioned seperated by a 1,000 year peace. Which side of that are we on.

Thanks for bringing this up. No one would talk to me before. Everyone just sticks to "Rapture!"

leia

The Gog-war is a west-african alliance between china, russia and persia.

Here is a recent parade showing the plan as a whole by the Iranian president: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZIp0BIRUJs

And here is chineese military preparing for war:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru-xQac_sWw


I´ve heard figures of 200 million soldiers from north korea, china and russia together.

Mechek is an old word for Moscow.

The gog war is one that takes place after the 1000 year reign of Christ, which is after the the rapture, return of Jesus, sealing of 144000 JEws, and wrath which all four take place on the same day. This is after the tribulation which in in the near future.
My reference to Demascus being destoyed is Isaiah 17 and could happen as soon as this summer with Israel and Syria banging on the drums of war!
I do not just make of times scales that sound nice.
Read Revelation Chapter 20. This explains why we say the Gog and Magog war is after the 1000 years of Christ rule.
The rest takes a while to explain why I believe this order, but give me time and I'll give actual biblical text that ACTUALLY refers to the subject at hand. Some take a scripture that is not even talking about what they are trying to use it for. Not Cool!

This is a much misunderstood passage but if you compare the Biblical Symbology utilized in the Apocalyptical Scriptures, you will easily see that the battel in Ezekial 38-39 occur at the end (not beginning) of the tribulation and it is, in fact, the return of Y'shua one of the Key Phrases used is the Feast for the Fowls of the Air which is a predominant endtimes typology.

What is so hard to understand about this.
Read Rev. 20 Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

20:7 is the only thing I need to compare. Cause it is the most perfect, never wrong word of the Living God. And it says after the 1000 years. The tribulation is obviously before the 1000 reign of Christ. Because Christ will return and set up His 1000 year Kingdom. It is after Christ returns(after Trib) and we (as Ezekiel says) will be living securely, in peace, no walls, recovered from wars and then satan is released for a short time to decieve those born whom haven't decided for Follow the King of Kings during the 1000 year reign and gather the worlds armies(Gog & Magog) for battle.
I am not trying to sound stuck in my way of believing. But I am TOTALY committed or stuck to believing every word thats in the Bible and the bible is soooooo very clear on when this happens. It don't beat around the bush(, or use any hidden meanings(symbology) or tryin confuse its readers. It tells you straight up Rev 20:7 And when the THOUSAND YEARS are EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
You tell my how you read this and then in your intelligable mind come to any conclusion other than after the 1000 years.
Unless you can prove Biblicaly there's two battles of Gog.
I can understand why you would consider when Jesus returns because it says God comes down and destroys them. BUT in the New testiment God is the Father, Jesus is the Son(or Lamb in Revelation). The Father Himself comes down and destroys them. And God the Father will dwell with us for Eternity when Jesus hands all Authority(including Himself) to the Father. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

From what I have observed,......neither one of you have really done the research on Ezekial 38..............Now to give food for thought concerning Ezekial 38................If one should trace the name....."Rosh"....you will arrive to the name Russia!.........If you trace the name "Meshech"....You will arrive to the name Moscow!.......If you trace the name "Tubal".....You will arrive to what is now known today as Tubalsk.....A lot of the cities from the former Soviet Union, have the "SK' added at the end of the name of a city.........The words "Chief Prince"...interpreted means...."Leader or President".....The word.."guard".....(where it says....be thou a guard unto them)........interpreted means.."Armorer"......Which is something that no one on this forum could deny,..that today, is exactly what Russia is doing for Israel's enemies.............Many years ago, I read a book called "The Beginning of the End"........By Tim Lehaye.......Tim, makes a statement, and says....."Of all the signs that are present in these last days......the end is not yet!".......Then he gives his reason why he makes that statement.......Tim goes on to state.....He says, the reason why the end is not yet is because Russia has always been led by a political body of men, and not under one sole leader or president!...............At the time that I read Tims book,...The Soviet Union, was still in power.......But it was not long there after that the Soviet Union elected for the first time in their history...."A President"!.....their one sole leader!....a man named Mikiel Gorbechouve...(I do realize that the spelling of his name is incorrect)....................When Gorby was elected as President of the Soviet Union......I literaly said out loud to myself....."Well Mr. Lehaye,....You now have your one sole leader or President"!.............But it was not long there after, that there was a coup, and also the Soviet Union fell apart.......And because of that,....I was very puzzled!...........But shortly there after, out of the ashes, from the fall of the Soviet Union...arose onto the world scene, the became a focal point on a global scale......."Russia"!!!............And for the First Time in Russia's History.....Russia elected their first "President"...or sole leader.......Who has not long ago passed away,.....and today Vladimir Puttin is Russia's President...............Ezekial 38:8 says "In the latter years you(GOG)will come into the land of those(JEWS) brought back from the sword(World war two)..................Back in 1979, when I began my journey into Bible prophecy....I had learned that Turkey was a member of N.A.T.O. ......But yet I knew that one day that Turkey would become one of the many nations that would one day join Russia in attacking Israel.......Now, it is the year 2007, and today, we can very much see that Turkey is now leaning heavily towards Russia and Iran.........In revelation 20...we read that Satan will gather people from the "FOUR CORNERS" of the earth to attack the "beloved camp of the saints'........In Ezekial 39 pay close attention to verse 22.......in the millenium, "all of Israel" will have already been saved!.....in Ezekial 39;21 thru 29, it's all about Israel......not saints!.................Ezekial 38,15 says that it shall be the power from the uttermost north, that shall attack Israel.....not from the four corners of the earth!.....it is easy to see that there are two different battles of gog!..........by the way......if one were to look onto a global map and draw a line from Jerusalem...drawing a line due north , not moving a hair space to the left or right......you will find that you have drawn a line thru Moscow.....center for center!......................Another thing to consider........The aftermath of Ezekial 38......God wipes out all but 1/6th.....as to rev.20....the Lord wipes them all out!......................I am just getting started, in proving that there are two gog battles....If you want some more i have plenty more to prove my point if need be...............................benny

Hi guys, by the way there's going to be a "blood moon" today seen in Australia where it is a total solar eclipse, these kinds of events aren't rare but an amazing sight. Read below...

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22318761-2,00.html

Sorry I'm out of topic, I can't seem to post my own haha. I'm new so maybe thats the reason.

GOD BLESS!!!

I doubt you have any manners benny. Don't forget you're christian dont forget it.

I really do try to brush it off like it's nothing....but yes, I do have my off moments.........I'll go back and edit.................................................God Bless.............................benny

Wow Benny I gotta say thanks for pointing out what a bunch of other MEN have thought. You read Revelation and denie the simple truth because a sinful man named Tim Lehaye. This man has been wrong before and is obviously wrong again. If I'm not mistaken this man is one of the worlds leaders in spreading the idea of a Pretrib rapture. You follow the teachings of men more so than you should. You point out things like Moscow. THis is all great. What makes you think that russia will not be a nation during the millinium into the end for this purpose. You thinking is limited to what the left behind series has taught you. Gog, then rapture, then trib. then the return of Jesus. This is a very nice happy view but it aint biblical. It didn't even start being preached until the 1800's. Show me ONE VERSE IN YOUR BIBLE that gives reason to believe there are two battles. The bible explains one, so to get another is to have gotten the info from another source. There is only one source of written proof of what God is doing and will do and that is the bible. Not Tim Lehayes books on the end or Jenkins' book about revelation. And the only other source of info is the holy spirit with its many gifts to give us info into the things of God.
Your "extensive" study is a study of other peoples ideas.... not your own! Unless you without any source of influence came to the conclusion that you would be resurrected or change seven years before Christ comes back, and then theres another resurrection seven years later and then another for the dead 1000 years later. THis is impossible since 1 Corinthians gives us the order and therr aren't as many as you want to exist. 1st Christ 2nd those whom belong to Christ at His SECOND coming. Not second and again at third seven years later.
You are confused about Gog because you have things out of order starting with the resurrection.
It you would open up and see that this just can't be biblicaly you would start to see the rest fall in place.
REad the Bible not Tim Lehaye.
Sorry not a rant, just caring for a brother

Dear EndTimeCalling,.....You state;..." Show me ONE VERSE IN YOUR BIBLE that gives reason to believe there are two battles.".........................I have already revealed to you that one verse..............Also, I have already been down this road before.................Subject closed!....................benny

And again you are wrong. Ezekiel used the word ISrael to describe the people of God.At that time only the Jews were the people of God. According to JEsus this is not the case now. According to the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords there is no Jew nor Greek in the Kingdom of God. WE are all the same. CHildren of God. Ezekiel did not know the difference between Christians and jews because Christians didnt exist then. He just saw Israel and Gods people. We are the decendents of Abraham. The spiritual decendents of Him. To argue this would be to deny Gods word. Which I see you have no problem with to make a point of yours. There of course are still the physical decendents also. Which most right now deny Yeshua as their Messiah until their scales are removed. Therefore they are not part of His Kingdom yet. But one day their scales will be removed from their eyes. But in Gods eyes those whom belong to Him are not Jew nor Gentile, but members His kingdom.

You will deny Gods word. Rev. 20. that clearly names the time. But you will use a word here and another word there to make a sentence that make your point make sence.
You did not give me a single verse. You gave me a collection of things that if you pick apart you can make it say what you want. And yet no one of any of those sentences you gave did it say 2 battles or anything to offer the Idea that Ezekiel and John in Rev.20 are talking of two different battles when obviously they are using the same nations, names, description of how the battle will happen. And even the same outcome.
I can take any paragraph and use only the words I want and make it say anything. To know if your ideas are correct. You must be able to take all of Gods Word and see if it contradicts itself. In your case it does. Rev. 20 teaches it happens after the 1000 years and you teach different based on the ideas of men.
No one here is crying but debating for the knowledge to be learned from one another. I love you NO less because you dont agree with me or even use words that might offend. I understand you. You spent countless hours learning and reading Gods word. And obviously books by men on this matter. You love these subjects because God has said they're important. For your love for God, I love you even more. Lots of us here do the same. But we are all men. No one here is sure of anything other than what the bible makes clear. To some certain things are clear, while to others it may not be so, but they may understand other things of God, better than the first person on other matters. Nothing said here should be taken as fact unless it is from the bible, the only true source of info other than the spirit. I will keep on searching and learning and I know you will do the same. And hopefull out of our prayers God will reveal to His son, whom will reveal to the spirit, whom will reveal to us what is the truth on every matter made for us to know at this time. Then we may agree and share these truths in love with those lost.
I will pray for a quickining of your understanding and mine. We are on the same side. We are both Hayalim Kedoshim(Holy Soldiers). We fight for the same King. We die for the same King. And we will live together for the name of the same King.

This subject is not over, nor does anyone here have the power to shut off conversations pertaining to the things of God. Because even if our moderators deems it right(not) to stop them. The spirit will move with those whom seek truth and to discuss the things of God, and will continue. So my brother this subject along with the rapture and everything else will stay open as long as people have questions and that will continue to increase until the end. And as soon as this forum stops any open discussion of the cares of God, Gods people will go where its allowed. The day this forum closes or stops free speech to its Christians members, many more free speech forums will open just like they do every day. Cause their are millions whom are seeking the truths about God and His given Word. If they don't find it here they will somewhere cause Yeshua and His Father are everywhere.
So if you don't like this road than take another path. Cause Gods people will always talk about many things in the Bible. This is one of them. I assure you there are plenty of people on the forum that would like to take this road and learn what the bible says about our future. Cause not everyone here started learning about prophecy in 1979. Some have just come to the saving knowledge of the gift Jesus has given us. The perfect sacrifice. They will want to know whats down this road, what is the truth at the end of the path is.
Your choice brother! You choose your path! Either continue to share in love or do as you've done here and angrily stop talking on matters you love to talk about because you come across those whom don't agree. I hope you will continue to share in love for those searching for truth like you do so well in current events and many other matters.
In Love for Yeshua Moshia Olam

I had this argument with my whife two days ago - she brought it up, and I got to study - real hard.

This is the timetable I come up with according to the Bible.


1. First there will come a war (the first Gog war - the first death)
2. They will fight against US and England to get world domination - then they will go against Israel - an enormeous army (There is mabe 1,5 billion soldiers in asia, africa and russia ready to fight)
3. God raises up all the saints from the dead (before the eyes of the enemy)
4. Then God kills everyone that has sinned. (sentence to death for a thousand years)
5. God makes a new Jerusalem - here on earth (as promissed)
6. We and the Jews lives with God in Jerusalem for 1000 years. (as promissed)
7. After 1000 years - God wakes up all the dead sinners outside the wall of the New Jerusalem, and Satan will gather them all to fight Jerusalem. (The second Gog war - the second death)
8. Heavenly fire is falling upon the enemies - and that is the end of Satan and his deseived ones.
9. Then God creates a new universe and a new earth - which I beleive we will witness in whole - and God put us there to live forever, while the old universe and the old earth is destroyed forever.


Any comments?

Beloved Togarma
If you would fill in the blanks cause I think your on to something
Just curious where you determine the US and ENgland are pointed out in scripture. And what about the Great Tribulation mentioned quit a bit in scripture.

Between what two numbers would you add things missing. Like Great Tribulation, the witnesses and such.

And what scriptures do you use to come to the conclusion that there are two battles. Which make you believe Ezekiel and John are speaking of diferent battle.

Comments?

Obviously, there's a mystery here that nobody has addressed yet. Just who is Gog and what is he? Ezekiel 38 calls him a chief prince. So, what is a chief prince? Refer to Daniel 10:13 and you'll see the term chief prince also being applied to Michael, the archangel. Maybe that tells us that Gog is not a man but a "prince" or "principality." Now, we see how Gog can appear in Ezekiel 38 during that time line and is released again in Rev. 20.

Good Point Mike,

I have always thought that as well...

You can't establish a time order from Ezekiels prophecies.

The original OT prophecies came as they came....this is what has confused orthodox jewish scholars for yrs...the prophecies had been given, they read them and thus assumed an order of events that is not correct. Indeed, they thought Jesus would be a man of war first, not the suffering Messiah first. The OT prophecies are not in sequential order.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, shows the sequential order of events. There is really hardly anything new in Revelations that wasn't previously foretold in the OT and or Gospels/Epistles...rather it was given to define sequence of events and to slightly elaborate upon those events. It is the KEY to SEQUENCE....

Clearly the Key/Revelations, unravels the Gog and Magog revolution after the millenium...nonetheless, the nations of the world will all be at war as foretold by Daniel the prophet, so no need to worry, Russia will probably be involved in the Meggido situation as well as all the nations of the earth will be brought up against Israel. But, this is not the Gog, Magog revolution.




satan is called the prince to...even the prince of persia and tyre...this is a term for warrior..........king david is also called a prince in the millenial kingdom who can enter from the vestible door....he has special status....

prince refers to a position in God's kingdom as well...lucifer was a prince and always will be a prince, even though he is fallen....he's now a benedict arnold prince!

Michael the Archangel was elevated in position and David who was a king in OT times will also be a prince....so I guess in the millenium we'll see Jesus being King of princes

ETC

I have looked at this cloud from both sides now.....

I have asked myself, "Self, what if this IS" and "What if this IS NOT" and looked for both rational explainations from Revelation and its timeline. I have concluded that we are not even close to the Gog war because I have seen no time of peace where Satan has been in chains and the other two heavies are exterminated entirely so that could be "peace". There have always been wars and rumors of wars, so no peace, so no 1,000 years yet, so no Gog war because that IS the timeline however the topic is muddled up with ancillary stuff.

OR, the second attempt....what if, just IF, this thousand years that was spoken of by John was the peace that was to be had when Christ's church stopped being persecuted....After Constinople became Christian nad made it trendy. It was exactly 1,000 years from that point to the blowing up of trouble again with Muslims. Time it out in history and you will see some really weird parallells. What if, just IF, THAT was ment to be the 1,000 years. Not peace without wars, because until the end, the final end when the City comes down from on high, there are humans ruling on earth (not Jesus and the 144,000 in heaven while humans still reside on earth) and when humans rule there will be wars. But What if that peace was a stopping of the terrible beheadings and such of the saints just for their professing to believe that Jesus was the son of God?

OK, lets assume that was what was ment....we would then be past the 1,000 years and into the "final days" before the Gog stuff.

What say you? And, quite frankly, this topic is rambling so if you are off topic now, just mail me for short. I really would like to get some answers and I don't always have a lot of time with running this farm, teaching children and running two businesses.

leia

Ezek. 37 describes the regathering of the 'dry bones' which has happened and is currently occuring. The bones come together, the skin covers them but they have no breath, no life. When do the bones come alive? -verse 12- 'Then you my people will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live'. What is the implication of putting God's spirit in someone? They become christians.

This would make more sense of the rest of Ezek. 37-'My servant David will be king over them', referring to Jesus, accepted as saviour. ' David my servant will be their price forever' again referring to Jesus as saviour forever. 'I will put my sanctuary among them forever.'-we know from Rev. that after the 1,000 years there will be no temple for God will be the temple. So this passage is not referring to the temple 'made with hands' but the temple of the Holy Spirit, the place where God dwells, in the heart of the christian. God and those who have accepted Christ will dwell together forever.

Ezek. 37 appears to be discussing Israel's return to Jesus, their messiah and saviour. But then Ezek. 39 describes Israel as not knowing God- 'From that day forward, the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God'. Wait a minute- if this is chronological, Israel should already know the Lord their God. In fact Jesus is king and God's dwelling is with them 'forever' already. Were the statements in Ezek. 37 only temporary?

Later in Ezek. 39 God says-'I will no longer hide my face from them for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel'. What?? God was hiding His face from Israel during the 1,000 year reign if Christ?? When Christ had been dwelling among the Israelites in Jerusalem for the past 1,000 years??

It would appear that instead of chronological, the latter part of Ezek. 37 and 39 are describing THE SAME EVENT. God pours out His Spirit (39), God put His spirit in them (37), different ways of saying the same thing. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that Israel will need to have God's spirit poured out on them twice.

Nor is there any indication that they will have to return to their land again at the end of the 1,000 years. On the contrary, Zech 14 states that 'The survivors of all the nations...will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles. If any...will not go up to worship tha King...they will have no rain...the Lord will bring on them the plague He inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.'

Not only all nations but all Israeli males have to 'appear before the Lord' at the feast of Tabernacles. With Jesus as king Israel would surely want to dwell in her land. And Jesus will clearly be in control. Ezek. 39 states after gog-magog God will gather Israel back and "I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations'. If the nations have to go up to Jerusalem every year to worship Jesus, they already know Jesus is holy. And by all nations having to go to Jerusalem yearly, Israel will be the focal point of the 1,000 years. Why would Israel leave her land later to be regathered? Who could take her into exile as described in Ezek. 39 with Jesus as her King?

I believe the passages that describe Israel's return in Ezek. 36, 37 and 39 are describing the same return, a return to Jesus as messiah and saviour.
.................................................benny

I'm gonna go with benny balerio on this one, that is how I read it as well.

The End Times According To Ezekiel, Part 3
Ikvot ha'Mashiach

A Bible Study by Jack Kelley



We have now come to Ezekiel 38, the battle between Israel and a coalition of Moslem nations that comes on the threshold of Daniel's 70th Week and will kick off the End Times in earnest. We'll review the 2600 year old prophecy in light of recent world events.

What Time Is It?
First of all, let's get some kind of time frame started. Although Ezekiel's prophecies aren't consecutive they are chronological. In other words, he didn't include every event of the End Times, but those he did include are in the proper sequence according to time. Falling between Israel's modern re-birth, prophesied in Ezekiel 36-37, and the Millennium, covered in Ezekiel 40-48, the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has to take place after 1948 but before the 2nd coming, and all agree it hasn't happened yet.



This has led some to see the passage as a description of Armageddon, but as we'll see there are several prominent nations missing from this battle whereas Zech. 14:2 prophecies that all the nations will join the battle on that day. Even if you take the phrase "all the nations" to mean only Israel's neighbors, you've still got a problem because Ezekiel's list of attackers leaves out some that you'd expect to be involved.



Also, Ezekiel prophesied that the Lord would use this battle to turn Israel back to Him and to complete the return of Jews from all over the world to Israel, not leaving any behind. (Ezek. 39:28) This leads me to believe that the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 is the event that re-starts the clock on the 490-year period of time spoken of by Daniel, the famous 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27. The 483rd year of that prophecy had come when the Messiah was crucified and the Temple destroyed, stopping the clock seven years short of complete fulfillment.



And there it's remained. But I believe the dramatic victory the Lord wins over Israel's enemies in Ezekiel's battle will start the clock again. It will convince them to officially re-instate their Old Covenant relationship and demand a Temple for worship. It's this Temple that's later desecrated by the anti-Christ, kicking off the Great Tribulation. That makes Daniel's remaining seven years the last ones before the 2nd Coming, so Ezekiel's battle will be a dramatic sign that the Lord's return is very near, on a par with the re-birth of the nation.



With all this in mind, let's begin a careful study of Ezekiel 38, to prepare us for these events now because many believe that they'll become reality soon.



The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army-your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops-the many nations with you. (Ezek. 38:1-6)

Who Are These People?


I believe that Gog is a supernatural being, leading both the battle of Ezekiel 38 and the final battle at the end of the Millennium 1000 yrs later. (Rev. 20:8) Perhaps he's Satan's counter part to Michael the Archangel. For what it's worth, there's an obscure reference in the Septuagint translation of Amos 7:1 to Gog, The King of the Locusts,. The identification of Gog as locusts' king is revealing since Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king. This hints that the "locusts" of Amos 7 are not intended to be natural beings, but symbolic of something else. There's a similar passage in Revelation 9:11 where locusts from the Abyss are described as having a king, and are clearly demonic. Are these two references giving us a clue to Gog's supernatural nature as well? I think so.



You won't find any hint of this in translations of Amos 7 rendered into English from Hebrew. You can only get there from the Greek translation. But with no connection to any physical territory or people as there is with Magog and the others named in Ezekiel 38, and with Biblical appearances so far apart in time, there's good reason to believe that Gog is a non-human character, one of Satan's own.



In contrast, there are over 130 historical references tying Magog to the ancient Scythians (they defeated Saul at the battle of Beth Shean and nailed his body to the gate of the city). They include Josephus and Herodotus, called the father of history. The Great Wall of China was known as the "Ramparts of Magog" in ancient times and was built to protect China from Magog. Some see a striking similarity between what's known about the Scythians and the Mongol Hordes of Genghis Kahn. Magog was a son of Japeth and inhabited central Asia. His children, the Scythians, are the ancestors of today's Russian people.



Meshech and Tubal were brothers of Magog and are linked to the same general area, but more likely with the Turkic people. Josephus associated Meshech with Cappodocia, home of the ancient Hittite Empire in Eastern Turkey.



There are many opinions on what the "hooks in the jaw" phrase describes, but I think it's becoming clear that Vladimir Putin is determined to make Russia a world power again, with dominating influence in the Middle East, and that's what will drive him into this battle. I think Gog is whispering in Putin's ear right now, persuading him to do this. And the Lord is encouraging this because it's the only way to get Israel's attention.



Persia is the ancient name for Iran. Cush and Put were sons of Ham and brothers to Mizraim (which means "two Egypts") and Canaan. Narrowly they are called Ethiopia (Cush) and Lybia (Put) but both were in possession of much larger territory in the past. The word Cush has a Hebrew root meaning black, and can be representative of the black races of Africa, while Put can represent the north part of the continent; Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Mauritania, etc. Note that all are sons of Ham and therefore not Semitic. The common denominator among African nations is religion (Islam) not race (Arab).



Gomer was Magog's brother and settled along the Danube River in what would become Eastern Europe. Beth means house in Hebrew. Togarmah was a son of Gomer. The Armenians of today call themselves the House of Togarmah. The Turks (but not the Kurds, who are the ancient Medes of Media-Persia fame) are also included. As with the African nations, The characteristic all these nations have in common is their religion, they're all Moslem.



"Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land. (Ezek. 38:7-9)



The fact that Israel is the target in this passage is self evident, but a controversy rages around the Heberew word betach translated "in safety" in verse 8. A secondary meaning, "carelessly" could mean that they're not really safe but just think they are and so their guard is down. From outward appearances it looks like it would take a truly miraculous change in Israel's current situation to achieve either of the conditions this word implies.



As I mentioned last time, some are beginning to think that a fulfillment of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 are needed to create the climate in which Israel would be living in a false sense of peace without walls and gates. The idea is that if Israel took off the gloves and went bare knuckle against the terrorists who live next door, they'd win hands down. There'd be no more Palestinian problem, no Hamas and no Hizbollah. Israel would wind up with more territory, something that would bring greater security, and the country's reputation of invincibility would be restored, and along with it their confidence. They'd also have the room they'll need to accommodate the return of Jews from all over the world who'll stream into Israel after Ezekiel 38.



In Isaiah 49:19-21 the prophet foretold of this return that began as a trickle with Israel's re-birth and will expand into a flowing river and then a mighty torrent.



"Though you were ruined and made desolate and your land laid waste, now you will be too small for your people, and those who devoured you will be far away.



The children born during your bereavement will yet say in your hearing, 'This place is too small for us; give us more space to live in.'



Then you will say in your heart, 'Who bore me these? I was bereaved and barren; I was exiled and rejected. Who brought these up? I was left all alone, but these—where have they come from?' "



The prior fulfillment of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 also helps explain why Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt won't be participating in Ezekiel 38.



" 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people-all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land." Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages will say to you, "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" ' (Ezek. 38:10-13)



Israel is described here as a country at peace in the idiom of Ezekiel's day, a land of unwalled villages, when this enemy coalition attacks, and other countries not mentioned before take notice. Again we see that something significant will have happened to change Israel's perception of the surrounding nations.



Sheba and Dedan are first mentioned as grandsons of Cush in Genesis 10:7. Later, in Genesis 25:3, we read of grandsons of Abraham named Sheba and Dedan as well, born to Jokshan, a son of Abraham and his 2nd wife, Keturah. From the passage it's not clear which pair of grandsons is being referenced, but commentaries none-the-less identify these two as representing the nations of the Arabian Peninsula, notably Saudi Arabia.



According to archaeologists W. F. Albright and Wendell Phillips, Sheba was on the southwestern edge of the Arabian Peninsula across the Red Sea from present-day Ethiopia. Sheba is known in history as Saba in Southern Arabia, home to the Sabaeans of classical geography, who traded in spices with the other peoples of the ancient world. Dedan was probably the habitat of the Arabs in the northern part of the Arabian Desert, which is modern-day Saudi Arabia. The ancient capital of Saudi Arabia is still called Dedan on many maps today.



Tarshish was a son of Javan, who settled the area of Southern Greece. There are three schools of thought where Tarshish is concerned. One view locates Tarshish to the East, accessible from Solomon's great seaport at Ezion Geber on the Red Sea. But since Javan and his family traveled north and west from Babel at the confusion of tongues, it seems unlikely. Large sea going vessels were often nicknamed "Ships of Tarshish" and more likely this is how Tarshish came to be linked with Ezion Geber, since both Solomon and Hezekiah built such vessels there. Others see this as a reference to ancient Tartessus, a seaport in southern Spain, near Gibraltar. They recall the sea going navies of the Phoenicians, who operated Ships of Tarshish out of nearby Cadiz. They sailed as far north as England for tin, a metal used in the making of bronze and other alloys, which they mined in Cornwall. Some believe that the name Britannia is actually derived from a Phoenician word meaning "source of tin." If so, since the ships of Tarshish brought tin to the ancient world, this reference could be to Great Britain making the "lions" (KJV) or "villages"(NIV) of Tarshish Great Britain's colonies, of which the US is most prominent today. The fact that the lion is a symbol of the British Empire lends support to this view.



All that being said, the most provocative point here is that the very coalition of western nations that freed Kuwait and deposed Saddam Hussein are not engaged here, but instead question the invaders' intentions from the sidelines.



"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. (Ezek. 38:14-16)



Here the Lord makes His intent unmistakably clear. He's orchestrating this event to reveal Himself to the world once again. The years and years of debate over God's existence, begun with the German School of Higher Criticism in the 1800's and continued in the modern rationalism of the 1950's will be put to naught as God uses this battle to poke His head through the fabric of the sky and shout, "I'm still here!"



" 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. (Ezekiel 38:17)



The absence of any specific reference to Gog in any other prophetic writings (except the Greek version of Amos 7:1) lends credence to my theory that he's a supernatural figure who has influenced various nations to rise up against Israel. Gog is not a traditional enemy like Edom or Philistia. He has no human descendants who've grown into an historic nation opposed to the Lord's people. Nor is there a geographic location on Earth we can point to as his homeland. He's a supernatural enemy who the Lord will deal with in a supernatural way.



This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD . Every man's sword will be against his brother. I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.' (Ezek. 38:18-23)



With signs reminiscent of all the Heaven-fought wars of the past, the Lord is aroused in anger to execute judgment against the invaders of His land and enemies of His people. And as He has done before, He sews confusion in the hearts of Israel's enemies so that they commence attacking themselves while He unleashes the classic weapons of divine intervention. Earthquakes, plagues, bloodshed, rain, hailstones, and burning sulfur; these are His signature signs. Neither Israel, nor the enemy coalition, nor those watching from afar will fail to interpret them correctly.



So ends chapter 38. Next time we'll see why some think this battle goes nuclear and get another good reason why it's not the last battle of the Age of Man. See you then. 02-02-08.....................................................benny

I could point out scripture and you read them the way you want and I would have read another. Unless one can open up and see that the other is truly correct this continues.
I must say I it odd to see the world in a frinzy over this matters the last year. Even the Israeli government is thinking this is a possibility. I cannot say what to make of it.
(THIS BELOW IS FROM THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL)
I do know this. on the day this battle occurs God himself declars that He will in His zeal and fiery wrath will declare that at that time a great earthquake shall occur. And everything; birds, fish beasts, and every creature that moves along the ground and all the peoples on the face of the earth will tremble at his presence. Its says the moutains would be overturned, the cliffs would crumble, and EVERY wall will fall to the ground.(not much left for a trib.) He would execute judgment will plague and bloodshed. It says he will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning fulfur on him and his troops and on many nations with him. And so through this will make himself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know his is the lord.(remember chapters were not orginal don't make anything of the fact that things are in different chapters. it just keeps reading)
He goes on to say in 39 on what who and what nations he has made himself known in person by sending fire upon them (Magog and those living in the coastlands). Then in the next verse 7 he goes on to say "I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned and the nations will know that I the lord am the Holy One in Israel.
It is EXTREMELY hard to imagine after all of this goes down(God destroying large portions of the armies of the earth coming together against ISrael and the WHole earth trembling at his presence and him making himself known by destroying this massive army with the horrible things described above the also pouring out fire on entire nations. And God proclaiming to never let his name be profaned again) that a man could come along shortly after and profane the mess out of Gods name and claim himself to be God instead of the Awesome God that just destroyed whole nations with fire from heaven and destroyed what will be likely the largest army in history in like and worse manner. This just does not line up with how John was told the end would go down. He mentions nothing of Gog or Magog untill after the 1000 years were complete.
Isaiah 37 with the bones is Israel in 48'. Still happening as you say. Then in a broad but not very detailed explains the future for the people of Israel. This is why He sent His revelation of the end in detail to us through John. Isaiah is a view of the picture from the grand scale of things and later when it was Gods perfect timing he sent His Revelation to John to explain exactly how the end would come. John's visions includes everything Isaiah saw and he saw this happen after the 1000 year reign of Christ.
*This even puts it in correct order for us. 37 tells of Yahweh bring the His people back and eventually They will have on king. KING JESUS! for 1000 he will reign,
*and then in 38' he tells of calling the armies of the many nations he list. telling them after many days (at the end of the 1000 years) they will be called to arms.(note they were not already at arms, because there is no war during the 1000 year reign) and in future years will invade a land that has recovered from war,(note recovered not still fighting) whose people were gathered from many nations(saints and jews alike) to the mountains of Israel, , which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, AND NOW ALL OF THEM LIVE IN SAFTEY. These people have been done with war and have been living in saftey. as the chapter before explains because they've been living with JEsus as King of Kings for 1000 years(1 day is as 1000 with God)
*39 finishes up, See also REvelation It is just exactly what Isaiah saw. But notice it is after Christ reign of 1000 years.

I just simply think this is for another age. After the 1000 year reign of Christ like John saw it in his vision. I believe that this age is soon coming to a close with a great tribulation such that the world has never known as I believe this is not Gods wrath but a time of deception as it is described to be in 2nd thess. I believe when JEsus returns at His Second Coming he will gather us to himself dead and alive and pour out his anger and wrath upon the world and the Anti-Christ and his armies. I believe all the horribly amazing things that are described in Revelation that happen during the great tribulation are the signs in the heavens and seas. He will show his mighty hand as a sign to those with and ear to hear and eyes to see. This time is a time for the wicked to be decieved by the great deciever, so great a deciever that even mabey the very elect of God might fall. And so with this going on persecution will arise that is so grand in size and brutality it has nor will ever be matched. Christians and jews and most likely any whom don't take this false mans mark will be hunted down and persecuted in the worst of ways not suitable for writing here.Then I believe Gods finishes it all by Showing up And gathering us to himself dead and alive and pours out his wrath(bowls of wrath) and at the end destroyes the armies of the antichrist and the antichrist himself at Armageddon.throwning them AC and FP into the lake of fire.
Chaining Satan up until Christ 1000 year reign is up and Satan is released and gathers the nations for war and here is where John in Revelation and Isaiah both say the battle of Gog and Magog as we call it happen. IN MY OPINION.
We are told to lookout for this time, and be prepared because he who stand firm until the end shall be saved.
lets prayer for this to come speedily in our day!

Russia plans buildup in the Mediterranean
Written by J.R.Lawendowski

Gog and Magog

World Tribune
MOSCOW — Russia has completed a two-week naval exercise in the Mediterranean and plans to re-establish its footprint in the region.

Russian navy commander Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky said his force would establish a presence in areas deemed by Moscow as strategic. Vysotsky said this would include the Mediterranean and the neighboring Atlantic Ocean.

"What is important is that we have arrived [in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean] at a scheduled time and not just that we appeared there," Vysotsky said on Feb. 3. "We'll do all we can to build up our presence where Russia has strategic interests."



The Russian Navy has concluded a two month tour of the Mediterranean and Atlantic. The operation was deemed the first large-scale Russian navy exercise in the region in 15 years.

Moscow has been conducting naval exercises with such Mediterranean states as Algeria and Syria. Russia has been financing the upgrade of Syria's port of Tartous to accommodate large naval ships.

On Jan. 18, the flagship of Russia's Black Sea Fleet, the Moskva guided missile cruiser, joined Russian naval warships in the Mediterranean to participate in a two-week exercise. The Russian naval task force consisted of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier, Admiral Levchenko and Admiral Chabanenko Udaloy-Class destroyers as well as support vessels.

More than 40 aircraft participated in the exercise, which ended on Feb. 2. They included Russian Air Force's Tu-160 Blackjacks, Tu-95MS Bears, Tu-22M3 Backfire-C strategic bombers, A-50 Mainstay airborne early warning aircraft, Il-78 Midas aerial tankers, MiG-31 Foxhound long-range interceptors and Su-27 Flanker frontline fighter aircraft.

"The North Fleet will conduct long-distance voyages about once every six months." Vysotsky said. "These voyages may differ from the recent one. We have enough opportunities and forms to display Russian naval might."





Eze 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:



...................................................benny

World Tribune
MOSCOW — Russia has completed a two-week naval exercise in the Mediterranean and plans to re-establish its footprint in the region.

Russian navy commander Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky said his force would establish a presence in areas deemed by Moscow as strategic. Vysotsky said this would include the Mediterranean and the neighboring Atlantic Ocean.

"What is important is that we have arrived [in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean] at a scheduled time and not just that we appeared there," Vysotsky said on Feb. 3. "We'll do all we can to build up our presence where Russia has strategic interests."

Yes benny! And guess where else the strategic interest of Russia are . . . The Axis is flexing.

What it appears from several viewpoints that Iran is trying to stop the oil flow from east to west and isolate as much as they can. Russia has been supplying Iran with nuclear material. North Korea has been supplying sub-marines to Iran. Israel says that Iran will have nuclear capabilities in two years. But, don't let that fool you into a false security because they have been in a war with Iraq for awhile. That's over now, but the US is in Iraq and it has turned into the Iran-US war instead of Iran-Iraq. The Hussein family of generals, father Saddam and his two sons, have been taken out. The Allied generals have taken over and are seeking help to battle the force of the head of the serpent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7234817.stm



Putin vows 'arms race' response

President Putin told the State Council he was not happy with Nato


Putin comments

Russia's President Vladimir Putin says the world is engaged in a new arms race and Nato is failing to accommodate Russia's concerns.
In a nationally-televised speech, he condemned Nato's expansion and the US plan to include Poland and the Czech Republic in a missile defence shield.

"It is already clear that a new phase in the arms race is unfolding in the world," Mr Putin said.

"It is not our fault, because we did not start it," he said.

Russia has, and always will have, responses to these new challenges

Vladimir Putin
Russian President

Mr Putin was speaking less than a month before Russians elect his successor.

In his speech, to the State Council - Russia's top politicians, officials and generals - he said other countries were spending far more than Russia on new weapons.

But Russia would always respond to the challenges of a new arms race by developing more hi-tech weaponry, he said.

Military muscle

Referring to Nato's activities in Central and Eastern Europe, Mr Putin said "there are many discussions on these, but... we have still not seen any real steps towards finding a compromise".

"In effect, we are forced to retaliate, to take corresponding decisions. Russia has, and always will have, responses to these new challenges," he said.


Russia has been using oil revenues to bolster its military

In December, Russia said it was planning naval exercises in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean.

It has also resumed long-range patrols by its bomber aircraft.

The practice was suspended after the collapse of the Soviet Union and was revived last August, as part of a more assertive foreign policy pursued by President Putin.

Higher oil prices have enabled Russia to re-invest in its armed forces, but its military capabilities remain far below what they were during the Soviet era.

The BBC's World Affairs correspondent Nick Childs says Mr Putin's language will add to growing worries in the West about Russia's new assertiveness.

Our correspondent says there was a time when Moscow appeared weakened, short of money, preoccupied with domestic problems, and relatively passive in terms of foreign policy.

But he says it is clear that Mr Putin is sending a none-too-subtle message that Russia is back on the international stage.
...........................................benny

.

Feb 25

Growing Tension with Russia

The West's relationship with Russia has been steadily declining for the past several years. The brief respite both sides had from the Cold War has been replaced with a new competition that has Russia as the envious brother who is constantly trying to show up his more accomplished sibling.

The two main sources of tension are Russia 's military saber-rattling and the Kremlin turning back the clock on political reforms.

Just this past week, Russia said it would have to adjust its military strategies if the United States deploys missile defense systems in eastern Europe. Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said the strategic balance was at risk and it's important for Russia's national defense ministry to beef up military readiness and develop strategic nuclear forces. The General also noted that Russia did not intend to threaten other countries by sending its strategic bombers to resume long-range patrol over the Atlantic, Pacific, and Arctic oceans.

I reported several times on a mountain of evidence showing how democracy in Russia is on the ropes. In recent days, Russia has clamped down on Human Rights Watch, refusing its executive director, Kenneth Roth, a visa to travel to Moscow following a 72-page report on Russia 's suppression of free speech.

Kosovo was another source of conflict with the West. Kosovo declared independence from Serbia, which is a traditional ally of Russia. Moscow 's envoy to NATO warned that Russia may have to rely on "brute military force" to earn respect on the world scene if all EU nations recognize Kosovo's independence and NATO oversteps its authority in Kosovo.

There is even tension in space. A successful missile strike on a rogue US spy satellite has been labeled by Russia as an attempt to militarize space and test an anti-satellite weapon. When I saw the satellite vaporize on CNN, I knew there would be the gritting of teeth in Moscow.

Not all the conflict has been with the U.S. and Europe. Russia even has strife with North Korea. This weekend, a Russian cargo ship was detained and boarded by armed coast guard agents in North Korean waters. The Lida Demesh, carrying a consignment of cars from Japan, was heading for the Russian port of Vladivostok when it was stopped by patrol near Cape Musudan. No reason was given for the search, but Russian sources said the ship may have gone too close to a missile test site.

Even the seemingly peaceful world of computer nerds has been unsettled by Russia. For the second time in a week, Russia has been named and shamed for its rising profile as a global malware hub. According to PC Tools, Russia now occupies the top spot as the source of viruses, Trojans and spyware. Most experts don't see Russia as actively trying to infect the rest of the world with malware. If there is a sin here, it is from a disregard of international responsibility.

All this tension that Moscow has with the rest of the world plays right into the end-time scenario. Russia wants to prove that it’s still a major world power, and the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39 seems to point to a national leader who seeks to gain glory for the land of the far north.

In the past few years, Rapture Ready has been closely tracking the career of Vladimir Putin. He seems to be a perfect match for the Gog leader. One of the biggest factors that makes him stand out is how demonic delusion has blinded most people from realizing how much of a dictatorial ruler Putin has become.

Shortly before parliamentary elections, foremen fanned out across factories, pulling aside assembly-line workers and giving them an order: vote for President Vladimir Putin’s party or else. They were instructed to phone in after they left their polling places. Names would be tallied, defiance punished. Children were pressed into service. At schools, teachers handed out pamphlets promoting “Putin’s Plan” and told kids to lobby their parents. Some were threatened with bad grades if they failed to ensure that their parents would show up and vote for the ruling party. I don’t think Soviet communist leaders ever tried any stunts this bold.

Right now, the only thing needed is a crisis that will spark the Gog invasion. With most of the Arab land that surrounds Israel identified in some ways as an ally of Russia, I doubt it will be long before the Great Bear gets the call to come hither.

"And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel , as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes" (Ezek. 38:15-16).

-- Todd

.....................................................benny

HE was born 10 -7-1952, Is he our 10 horned 7 head beast from the med. sea?

Rev. 13 1-2
The Beast out of the Sea
1 The dragon [a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Russian bomber again intercepted near U.S. Navy ship
Wed Mar 5, 6:48 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Russian bomber aircraft approached a U.S. aircraft carrier off the Korean coast on Wednesday and was intercepted by American fighter jets -- the second such incident in less than a month, U.S. defense officials said.

According to the U.S. officials, a Russian bomber came within three to five nautical miles and flew 2,000 feet (610 meters) above the USS Nimitz aircraft carrier and its accompanying ships.

Two U.S. F/A-18 fighters were launched to intercept the Russian aircraft and escort it out of the area, according to one defense official.

Russian bombers over the past year have increased their flights near U.S. territory and U.S. naval assets, demonstrating their long-range strike capability.

In February, two Russian bombers approached the Nimitz near Japan and one flew over the carrier, escorted by a U.S. fighter jet. That was the first Russian overflight of a U.S. carrier since 2004.

Those operations come as Russian officials say they will revive some of the military power and reach allowed to collapse with the Soviet Union.

U.S. defense officials on Wednesday said they did not consider the Russian bomber flight a threat or concern.

(Reporting by Kristin Roberts, Editing by Cynthia Osterman)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080305/...russia_navy_dc
..................................................benny

Sounds like Russia is getting ready for something. There is no logical reason to fly your bombers over the worlds most powerful nation's ships without having a plan or without expecting provocation.

I want a BIG HURRAY for the people here, that gather the information.
I always found the information gathering the hardest part before even attempting to start an analysis.

HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY HURRAAYY

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The one that shoots first, is the one in the Pit.

Gog is satan. He confedrates against Israel during the tribulation period and again 1,000 years later.

13 March 2008, 16:18
Russia wishes to confirm its status of 'friend to Islam' - Margelov

Moscow, March 13, Interfax - The problem of Islamophobia in Europe is very acute, Chairman of the Federation Council International Affairs Committee Mikhail Margelov told Interfax.

"The problem of European Islamophobia is so large that the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Europe has recently posted the European Islamic Charter," he said.

The charter urged 20 million Muslims who live in Europe to promote peace in their new countries and seek political temperance.

The peaceful co-existence of cultures, ethnic groups and religions is an important task, as the modern European civilization can be nothing but pluralistic, Margelov said.

The foreign minister represents Russia at the 11th Summit of the Organization of Islamic States (OIC), and this shows the significance of the Islamic factor in the Russian policy, he said. "Russia wishes to confirm its status of a reliable friend to Islam, as this meets the national interests of the country populated by over 14 million Muslims," he said.

"Experts notice the Russian interest in the smooth integration of Islamic migrants from CIS member countries and support to moderate Islam," Margelov said.

"Russia has sufficient experience for helping Muslims worldwide to settle conflicts and fight extremists and Western Islamophobia," he said.

....................................................benny