Greetings:

I caught Jim Meigs' (Popular Mechanics Cronie) commentary on CNN yesterday and wanted to say he is a liar. WTC-7 was obviously taken down by controlled demolition by the setting of carefully placed pyrotechnic charges. Jim Meigs discredited himself by saying setting charges would take months, but then declared a few fires caused ‘all’ the supporting columns and beams to suffer ‘simultaneous’ catastrophic failure. See the video again:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC7_Collapse.mpg

Hold your cursor on the scroll bar and move the building down and back up again. Do you see any fires? No. The idea that demolition crews can take down a 47 story skyscraper in just a few hours by setting few fires is preposterous. Examine the pattern of the supporting columns and beams:

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...wtc/WTC_ch5.htm



This is perhaps the finest reporting on the WTC-7 Controlled Demolition anywhere on the Web. Try to imagine the myriad of columns and beams we are talking about. Look at this construction photo . . .



. . . get a mental picture of the size of the supporting structures. Then move on down to Figure 5-11 . . .



. . . to realize all of these supporting columns and beams were encased in ‘spray on fire proofing.’ Try to calculate the precise location where you could start a few fires and cause all of these steel supports to suffer 'catastrophic failure' at the very same instant! Move down to Figure 5-20 . . .



. . . and tell me if you see any fires?? Well? How are the columns and beams on the WTC-7 ‘perimeter’ going to suffer any kind of failure, when there is no fire in their proximity at all?? Look over at Figure 5-23 . . .



. . . and note the “kink” or bow break in the roof section. Controlled Demolition requires the central charges to detonate first, so a vacuum is created by the controlled blasts assisting gravity to literally suck the building down into its own footprint. Both of these pictures show the column and beam integrity of the building to be intact, even if Figure 5:23 (above) shows a rapid decent. Move down to the very next picture and explain to yourself how all of these columns and beams became separated to end up in this neat little pile!



WTC-7 was struck by NOTHING, but this picture shows our massive beams and columns severed apart from one another. This attack was not carried out by any Bearded Jihadist Radicals! We have further evidence that 9/11 was an ‘inside job’ all along.

http://911review.org/93/maps/



Go through all the pictures to realize there was never any PLANE. We are talking about a 100 tons Jetliner with 60 tons of high grade aluminum and two Rolls Royce engines weighing 15 tons each! The workers in the top picture are walking around with hands folded like they are lost. The picture above shows an empty hole! Look at all the Pentagon photos by hitting the “Next” button. The picture below is just one sample:

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/preview.html



Do you see any 100 tons of Jetliner on the Pentagon lawn? No? How did a 125 feet wide Jetliner pass through the West Wedge Wall? This is a picture of the aftermath of a Tomahawk Missile attack. Rumsfeld told the world this was a missile attack on the day after 9/11:

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%2...-Flight-77.html

This little video shows the missile leading the white vapor trail into the West Wedge Wall of the Pentagon.



Jamie McIntire, the Chief Pentagon Correspondent, reported “No Plane!” just moments after the missile attack:

http://thewebfairy.com/911/pentagon/index.html

I disagree with Rosie O’Donnell about almost everything, but she is right about WTC-7. Examine the evidence for yourself and ‘the truth’ will become clear as day. The real terrorists are still out there and they are setting Americans up for round two!

PS. The images in this post were transferred to my Photobucket website, because they oftentimes failed to appear. None of the images have been altered in any way. Many thanks to our gracious moderators for allowing us time to correct things in our work. God bless you all.

Terral

They also killed Kennedy,,,covered up/ continue contact with "aliens", and run the entire world from hidden bunkers (all countries,,,both parties)

This has what to do with salvation??????

The world is occupied the same way Israel was in Christ time.

Oh please, STOP!

Hi RAF and Diverteach:



Salvation? Are we lost? This is the “Current Events” Forum and Jim Meigs (Editor at Popular Mechanics) went up against Rosie on CNN yesterday. This 9/11 “Inside Job” interpretation of the evidence is once again being raised into the consciousness of the American people and the world. How about if you try to point out any errors you see in my Opening Post? You can read about ‘salvation’ on my Gospels Thread here:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9120

That would be in the “General Bible Study” Section of this Board. No, we will not be talking about Current Events in that thread . . .



Stop? Do you support the “Official Bush Administration / Department of Defense Cover Story” for each of these 9/11 cases? If so, then please offer up your evidence to support your theory. Can you place Flight 93 anywhere near the Shanksville field or Flight 77 anywhere near the Pentagon? How do you explain 47 stories of WTC-7 collapsing neatly into a pile of rubble, just a few hours after being struck by nothing at all? Suppose for one minute that all of these 9/11 Events are the product of an ‘Inside Job,’ then realize the ‘true terrorists’ are still out there and getting away with the murder of our fellow Americans! This is all about The Truth the Whole Truth and nothing but The Truth concerning the events of 9/11.

If any of you do not like this Current Events Topic, then please turn the channel.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

" http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/silverstein_pullit.html "

How do you explain 47 stories of WTC-7 collapsing neatly into a pile of rubble, just a few hours after being struck by nothing at all?

AND Burning diesel can't produce enough heat to melt steel, so it certainly can't evaporate it, but thermite can.

Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish WTC 7 late in the afternoon of 9/11. In the documentary "America Rebuilds", aired September 2002, Silverstein makes the following statement;

"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

The word 'pull' is industry jargon for taking a building down with explosives.
AND TO SAY IT ISN't IS TO LIE!!! EVERY TIME I WATCHED A DEMOLITION ON TAPE THE WORD "PULL" IS ALWAYS USED...PERIOD!!!!

" http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html "

" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3E-26oVIIs "

" http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html "

" http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/pp_fdny.htm "

" http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/silverstein_pullit.html "

"These tapes reveal the fact that the firefighters were not overly concerned with the strength of the fires and believed they could control them. They were not raging infernos that could melt steel. These tapes alone prove that the official story of the collapse of the World Trade Towers is a complete and total lie. Why have the rest of the tapes been classified? Because they reveal the truth, that 's why. "

READ HERE................

" http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/pp_fdny.htm "

(First of all, I started this topic, terral, and you are doing nothing but hijacking it. If anyone should 'turn the channel', it is you. Note: The post about the Solomon Islands earthquake has nothing to do with this garbage you are posting.)

My mistake - this was posted to the wrong topic by me. I still stand behind what I wrote, however.

Second, Rosie O'Donnel is a divisive figure in American pop culture, and like her cronies Charlie Sheen, Al Gore, Michael Moore and others, they have done everything they can to divide the attentions of the population at large, and continue to proliferate the conspiracy theories they consume and vomit back out on a daily basis for their own profit, and to keep themselves current in the media spotlight. They are media terrorists in my book. They divide the country with thier wacko ideas that they themselves picked up from some lunatic web site. They tell us what we should beleive, make fun of those who do not line up with them, and then live lives that proclaim - no, SCREAM! - it is okay to live without JESUS CHRIST, be unrepentent, live homosexual lifestyles, shout others down, disregard authority - basically everything that JESUS CHRIST, through the Apostle Peter said NOT TO DO:

2pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb --- speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

These are your Rosie O'Donnel's, the ones that tell the simple minded that whatever comes out of their mouth is truth and that they should listen and follow blindly. It is their own vain, pumped up opinion, plain and simple. how can you believe and defend such a person and their actions?

So you know these links are the Whole Truth? I say that these are lies, all of them. I have seen the pictures of the wreckage of the plane that flew into the Pentagon. I have seen the pictures that showed one of the engines and of the landing gear where the plane hit the Pentagon. I have read some of the engineering papers written about the amount of potenitial energy that was released when each plane hit each tower, which was enough to critically weaken the supporting structure of each tower (the fire from the jet fuel was only a contributing factor, but not the main factor that caused the tower to come down with a compression effect). These ar written by engineers, with degrees in physics,etc. I am an engineer by training, and I can understand what they discuss in their articles. There is NO truth to the conspiracy theories you have dragged up again about the towers imploding due to explosives, etc.

Here are links to the opposing and more intelligent side of the 911 debate:

http://home.planet.nl/~reijd050/JoeR/penta...ensions_est.htm (long article about the plane that hit the Pentagon, plenty of pictures for Terral to look at that, including pictures of the wreckage from the plane, etc).

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...eased&st=15 (A post about the study done debunking accusations that the towers were 'blown up' by explosives placed in key areas to cause them to collapse. It is written in 'engineering-ese', so I took the important parts out and explained them. But for Terral's benefit - and I know i am wasting my time, or at least I suspect I am! - I have included the analysis below).

From the post referenced above:

Here is a link to a paper that you may not understand, but it is well worth the read:

http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf#sear...conspiracy'

The paper uses a lot of math. Unless you are a physics major or an engineer (like I am), you will not understand a lot of the information presented. I will save you some time - the conclusion of the paper is that the amount of energy expended due to the impact of the airliners caused the failure of the support columns of the tower. The jet fuel, although a contributing factor, did not bring the towers down. It was the energy expended in the impact and the resulting destruction of the structural support columns of the building that led to the support structure failures. Imagine this - the energy of an airliner impacting one of the towers:





So there was quite a difference in the amount of energy of the impact versus the energy needed to destroy the structural supports of the a WTC - the impact of the plane exceeded the destructive energy needs by 2.4 x 10^9 J of energy! The planes were easily able to sever the support structures of the floors the planes flew into. Since there is conservation of energy, the rest of the 2.4 x 10^9 J of energy had to go somewhere, and so some was heat (not much) and the rest absorbed by the building but which caused additional stress on the structural members of the floors the planes hit which caused structural weakening. Add to that the sudden introduction of 137 tons of plane into the damaged support structure and I think you can see what the result would be.

The rest of the energy from the impact was absorbed by the building in the form of sway (recoil of the building after it was hit) and the energy dissipated by the destruction of the aircraft it self.

We are talking about a lot of energy being transfered into the building due to the impact - over 2 million Btu's of energy from the collision itself, and that does not include the amount of energy the vapor ball of jet fuel contained. The paper also mentions the fact that the 14 floors that crashed down on tower 1 and the 30 floors that crashed down on tower 2 could indeed cause the building to collapse vertically, similarly to an implosion induced by explosives.

In short, the math shows that the towers were not 'blown up'. Please read the article and make up your own mind...

Oh yeah! isn't today the day we celebrate the RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST?

HE IS RISEN! GLORY TO THE LIVING KING OF GLORY JESUS CHRIST!!!!


HE IS NOT HERE FOR HE HAS RISEN!

Hi Hosea:



You are 100 percent correct in everything you said above in your 09:56AM post. You can hear the actual audio recording here:

http://vestigialconscience.com/PullIt.mp3

The key is “. . . and they made the decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.” Many people fail to realize that the World Trade Center Buildings were owned by the New York Port Authority, until the summer of 2001. That marked the first time ownership of these buildings was ever held in private hands.

http://cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?...rry_silverstein



In Christ,

Terral

Terral and Hosea,
Start a new topic. You have successfully hijacked this one. I am closing it.

Edited:
Sorry - my bad. This is Terral's, not mine. I am closing the Solomon Island topic I started, not this topic. This topic was linked to mine (the solomon island earthquake topic). This one will stay open untill Terral close sit.

gr82bsaved (Admin)

Rosie O'Donnel is a gossip, why pay attention to her...

LOOK UP our REDEEMER LIVES!

Have a blessed Easter everybody!

Hi gr82bsaved:



What? This thread was started this morning, after CNN reported that James Meigs had Debunked her claims. You are writing on my thread that has nothing to do with you or any other thread.



Solomon Islands? You are certainly lost . . .



First, there is nothing in ‘my’ Opening Post of ‘this’ thread quoting Ms. O’Donnell. Our opinions about these TV characters changes nothing about the photographic evidence in ‘my’ Opening Post.



I disagree with Rosie on about everything, but even a big fat blind hog roots up an acorn now and then . . .



Here in America we have something called the freedom of expression and there are plenty of wackos to go around. That is not going to place any 100 ton Jetliner in the field outside of Shanksville:

http://911review.org/93/maps/

Show us your 100 tons of Jetliner or prove to us that you cannot.



Please . . . You are trying to tell us what we should believe. Right? You are dragging that nonsense into this thread to muddy the water. Please ‘quote >>’ anything you like from ‘my’ Opening Post and offer your own evidence for something else. We are comparing what the ‘evidence’ says VERSUS the Official Bush Administration Cover Story. This is about whether ‘you’ see any 100 ton Jetliner in the Shanksville field or not.



Very good. Please explain which part you believe is a lie in this picture:

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/details.html

This is a picture of the West Wedge Wall of the Pentagon taken after the initial attack, but before the second and subsequent floors fell from the fire. Note the location of the cable spools on the lawn out front and their proximity to the wall behind them. The distance from the tops of those spools to the bottom of the second floor is only about 7 feet. Do you see any signs of any 100 ton Jetliner outside the Pentagon? No! Okay then, how do you fit an almost fifty feet tall Jetliner through that tiny seven feet opening? Do these firemen seem concerned about any 100 ton Jetliner? No. There was never any PLANE! Look at the picture of the cable spools up close and the wall behind them:

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/spools.html

How did a 125 feet wide and 155 feet long 100 ton Jetliner fly just over the tops of these cable spools, but the wall behind them is still very much standing? Look at the cable on those spools very carefully and note the black plastic covering is still very much intact. How does 100 tons of Jetliner explode over those spools with sufficient heat to vaporize the entire PLANE, but the plastic is not even melted on these spools? The missile exploded inside the Pentagon, which is why the furnace is burning hot inside and the debris is thrown back in our direction. Here is an overview shot of the wall again:

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/preview.html

Where is your 100 ton Jetliner hiding? How can you even sit there and claim I am telling a lie, because all I am doing is showing you the documented evidence for each of these cases. The pictures speak for themselves! No 100 ton jetliner passed through this wall and no sign of any Jetliner is on the lawn outside. Do the math!



Great! Show us your evidence so we can draw your conclusions . . .



Great! Show us your pictures. Here is one of a real 15 ton 757-200 Rolls Royce Engine:

http://web2.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=49088



You appear lost gr82bsaved, because there is nothing in my Opening Post about the Twin Towers. The photographic and video evidence is about the WTC-7 Controlled Demolition, the Flight 93 HOAX in Shanksville and the Flight 77 HOAX at the Pentagon. Please start your own thread on whatever you wish concerning the Twin Towers and please stop trying to hijack my topic to SolomonIslandsVille and TwinTowersVille.



Cut and paste anything you like to this thread, but nothing in that article offers rebuttal a single thing in my Opening Post presentation. ZERO.

GL,

Terral

Hi gr82bsaved:



Thank you for realizing the mix up. I was beginning to wonder if I had mistakenly posted a reply on your thread by accident. That “Solomon Island Earthquake” lingo was flying over my head going 500 miles per hour. :0). Please understand that I am only trying to assist others gain a complete understanding of ‘the truth’ by the examination of all the facts in these cases in the shadow of the “Jim Meigs versus Rosie 9/11 Conspiracy” reporting on CNN News. We know very well that Rosie O’Donnell and her sidekicks are left wing nut-jobs about most things. Granted! Sometimes it takes someone like her to raise the attention of the public on these kinds of Current Events by making News. If anything in my presentations on this thread appears off, then please highlight that portion and offer your own views using some kind of photographic evidence. Thank you again,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

I admire your standing on this issue terral. Not a lot of people would dare to go against the "Holy Government isntitution" which for some reason has become more important than our one and only holy faith. You know the bible tells us that we will be deceived and betrayed by the leaders of this world, and that the only one we can trust is our TRUE GOD. But well, surely we love our way of life and commodities that we rather ignore "evidence" than going against our holy land. Man, thank God we were born in America! We are so lucky we were, cause imagine having to be living in a place like the philipines or other countries where they don't have this prestigious way of living, they are also persecuted. Yep it is so easy to be a Christian in America, for now...Just whenever this turns into Big brother christian persecutiuon and we see our government going after us, let us remmeber our persecuted brothers, and let us remmember our love for God is stronger than our love for this nation and ourselves.

p.s. want to read a good book? "The truth about 9/11 and the American Empire: The intellectuals speak out" by Griffin.

Oh yes, waiting for the empire to fall!!! God grant us understanding, obedience and bless us all. Blessed be the Lord!

Jet fuel isn't hot enough to melt steel?

Which was it Jet fuel 'A' or Jet fuel 'B'?

Not that it matters much. Hey did you know that coal fires aren't hot enough to melt steel, propane fires aren't either, Charcoal fires won't even melt steel. Acetylene fire will not even melt steel. The only fire that will melt steel isn't fire at all... it is electricity.

So how is it that blacksmiths have been melting steel for centuries? OOOOH! OKAY!!! Fuel plus wind will melt steel!!! Of which there was plenty of at the WTC site. Fire needs oxygen, and there was plenty of it in those buildings!!! LOOK AT THE DEBRIS!!! Remember the wind?

You know what else? Friction melts steel!!! That is right... remember the paper clip you bent back and forth until it snapped? It got pretty hot at the bending point didn't it? Do you know how some blacksmiths start their fires? They hammer on a quarter inch rod until the tip becomes hot enough to start the fire.... not easy but it does work! That peice of steel can become red hot!

Hey did you know that pressure also melts steel? That is right... pressure melts steel! I have personally seen a penny LIQUIFY upon impact with a huge power hammer! Completely melted! NOT FRAGMENTED!!! LIQUIFIED WITH ONE HIT!

Also did you know that some fires do not release their energy in the visible spectrum? Diesel fires are a little hard to see under some situations.

The first tower to fall had its top tilt towards the initial impact site and then collapse. This created the necissary force to pancake the building. Physics wins over your conspiracy every time.


ybic

Oh. BTW...

The smartest thing to do after those impacts would be to demolish the towers. It would be impossible to reconstruct them in a safe manner. If they still stood after the impact they would have been imploded... the biggest question is how to do it safely. Just because people were saying the best thing to do is to implode them doesn't mean the charges were already set. When they were overheard saying that they were speaking of the future fate of the two towers.

Physics just beat them too it that is all

Hey have you noticed the same thing I have?

One of the first things the enemy does to prevent an idiology is cast doubt or refute the evidence of the events leading up to a situation.
No WMD's found, now a 9-11 conspiracy....

You must ask yourself what is the goal? To end the war in Iraq is the goal.

Look at the parallels the enemy has used to defeat the idiology of Christianity!!! Very similar to the 9-11 conspiracies... Attack the foundation and the rationlaization of the conspiracy will crumble the message and intent of the action that they are trying to stop. In Christ's example it is to end salvation. In the towers example it is to end the war and gain political party favor!!!

In other words doubt is being cast on the merits of why we went to war in the first place as a dark sinister plot to do something, in which the events were created by our country for the purpose of using it as propaganda. A "wag the dog" situation.

Sorry to say many are to blind to see the foundational attack on christiandom and 9-11 and the adjendas behind them.

Right on, Gr82bsaved and itchy! Some people want to believe this garbage, same as some want to believe that Jesus was a 'myth'. Both are wrong.

In Christ, Angela

Oh... I forgot to mention.

What are jetliners made of?
Aluminum
Magnesium
Steel
Polymers
and Petroleum products. Diesel fuel, grease, hydrolic fluid

Ok what happens when you throw water on a magnesium fire? Blow Torch!
What happens when you throw water on an aluminum fire? Blow torch!
What happens when you add iron oxide to an aluminum fire? Blow torch!
What happens when you add carbon to molten aluminum? Blow torch wick!
What happens when you add oxygen to a polymer or petrolium fire? Blow torch!

Were there sprinklers in the WTC? Yes. Did the sprinklers go off? Yes. What did the fire consist of? Aluminum, Magnesium, Steel, Petrol and Polymers! A HUGE CATALYST FIRE!!! What do you get when you burn Aluminum or Magnesium in the presence of water? A LOT OF SMOKE HYDROGEN and Hydroxide fumes!!! Is a hydrogen flame visible? NO!!! Is a hydrogen flame Hot? YES. What about the insulating material on the jetliner? Flammable! What about the wiring? Flammable! What about the copper wire? Catalyst! About the only thing that wasn't really flammable was the glass.

Oh and then there was a short period where the power had not been shut off. Electrical fire.

And on top of that you had a JETLINER slamming into the structural supports of the towers. I think without a fire the towers would have collapsed with a very brisk wind. The fire helped weaken the concrete and soften the steel even melting it.

Conspiracy? Nope!

Think that about does it. It is propaganda to end the war and get democrats in power. And quite possibly the conspiracy information is being planted by one of our enemies who stands to profit from it.

Now that makes more sense then Rosie's Rantings.

BIC

Hi itchy and Angela:



I cannot believe you even read the Opening Post of this thread that says NOTHING about the Twin Towers at all. This discussion is about WTC-7 and the video ( http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC7_Collapse.mpg ) showing 47 stories of skyscraper falling neatly into its own footprint after being struck by NOTHING. There are no planes flying into WTC-7 partner. BTW, the people at 911Research (Ramon Gilsanz, Edward M. DePaola, Christopher Marrion, Harold “Bud” Nelson) agree 100 percent with me:

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...wtc/WTC_ch5.htm



Next we are considering the evidence in the Flight 93 case where the Official Cover Story is that 100 tons of Jetliner crashed into a field outside of Shanksville:

http://911review.org/93/maps/

Do you see any PLANE or not? No you do not. If you have a case for something else the bring it! The third and final subject of the Opening Post is the evidence from Flight 77 supposedly striking the Pentagon:

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/preview.html

Everyone is encouraged to thumb through all the pictures and to draw their own conclusions. Does anyone see 100 tons of Jetliner anywhere? No you do not! This is what a real Jetliner crash looks like:

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/othercrashes.html

Note how the Jetliner debris towers over the heads of the people on the scene. We see tail sections and fuselage scattered around EVERYWHERE. The tail section is notorious for escaping catastrophic damage, because the kerosene (jet fuel is only kerosene guys) is located in the wings on either side of the Jetliner. Do we see anything like that in these Flight 93 pictures?

http://911review.org/93/maps/

Well? No! These guys are strolling around an empty hole! The second picture (MSNBC “Attack On America”) shows an empty hole in the ground. If anyone has some other evidence to prop up their case, then by all means throw us a bone here.



What part of my Opening Post are you prepared to ‘quote >>’ and prove to be garbage missy? Anything? Or nothing? The pictures and videos speak for themselves and you guys can continue believing ‘your’ myths all you like. You believe Flight 93 crashed outside of Shanksville? Great! Show us one reason why you believe that NONSENSE! Nobody has any opportunity to believe your garbage, because your mouth is moving, but you are not saying anything. Bring us your evidence for something! All I see is a busybody writing two sentences of nothing . . . GL.

Those of you writing on this thread without bringing evidence to support your case are wasting the time of everyone. Calling people names is not going to prove your case for anything. Prove someone is putting garbage on this thread by making your case, THEN jump up on your high horse and mouth off a bit . . . Not the other way around . . . GL in the debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Terral... I'm just curious... how does the research account for the "missing passengers" that "supposedly" perished (but didn't) in the Flight 93 and Pentagon crashes, if they never crashed? And where did these airliners go and land with their crews and passengers when every airport in the world was aware of the crisis? I'm sure the "surviving" families would like to know the whereabouts of their missing love ones since they never died in these fabricated crashes, and since we do know that they did departed from Boston-Logan Airport. Where did they go? And how do you hide these giant planes and usher off the crew and passengers without witnesses and the media in the midst of this globally known catastrophe? Where are they today? If these questions could be adequately answered, then it would certainly add credence to this theory.

You failed to mention the following regarding making of the steel process--- first of all I don't even think you know the difference between aluminum, copper, nickel, or iron and steel. Steel after being refined is a mix of iron and carbon--- but it does not NATURALLLY come this way! You have to start by a cruder form of iron which has a LOWER melting point!

Its starts by making pig iron, (layers of iron ore mixed with limestone and special coal(called coke). The temperature to start the process is hot blasted air(ie pure oxygen) at 1200 degrees F but reaches 3000 degrees F. The coke is what causes the temps to be so high. And this is the starting process for the pig iron --- the limestone draws the impurities out of the metal.The second type of refining for steel is done by creating an ELECTRIC ARC!Anyway most steel is mixed with an alloy of chromium or nickel.They use pig iron because it has a lower melting point then either wrought iron or steel of course. Wrought iron is what your so-called blacksmiths made--- its not even steel though they could make steel by reheating the wrought iron and getting it to absorb more carbon---which makes steel.

So can jet fuel and wind reach these temps? Can jet fuel and wind create an electric arc?

I doubt it.


PS--- paperclips are ALUMINUM(probably alloyed with magnesium)and NOT Steel--- magnesium is quite flamable to friction etc. -- and dump water on it you get ammonia (an experiment long ago done) Pennies are not steel but another alloy mixed with nickel and copper.

And my father runs a scrap metal business steel beams in scrap are pretty much usless for reuse you cant recycle them on. Gee... I wonder why? Maybe because its cheap and hard to REMELT!

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

==============

People are accustomed to plane crashes where the pilot attempts to save the vehicle....

These jets were crashed deliberately! By terrorists! The proof is in the crater! First you complain that WTC 7 was brought down by nothing, and then you claim "nothing" caused the crater in Shanksville.... Interesting.

400 to 500 miles per hour direct impact with no attempt to recover from the dive... 100 tonne jetliner. The answer to your conspiracy is inerta!

18 floors of WTC 7 hit, molten debris from the twin towers, the collapse of the towers and the shock force of the collapse creating a situation much like the volcanic eruption of Pompeii. Human bodies being vaporized by the blast from the fall of the towers.... nope no conspiracy here.

That damage to the Pentagon done by a tomahak cruise missle? HMMM... I'm requesting a refund on my taxes. Clearly that "Cruise Missle" was a dud!

Seriously A cruise missle does not do that sort of damage!

The damage was caused by aircraft impact at a high rate of velocity. Inertia carried the aircraft remnants through and over the pentagon....

Again I remind you the terrorist Pilots were not trying to recover from the descent! They Were Causing The Descent At Full Throttle!!!

Dear Like deb.

I will invite you to my forge and and see what you think about how I myself melt steel.... Mild steel, stainless steel, High carbon steel, Nickle steel, Damascus steel, spring steel, silicon steel... I make knives and ornamenata iron for a hobbie... Blacksmiths these days use mild steel rather that iron and have for a few centuries. The actual process of forging and forge welding of the iron turns it into mild steel. In most cases it is "case" steel, in which there is an outer layer of steel and an inner layer of iron. It is often used in a process called "case hardening" in which many forms of swords and other cutting implements have an Iron absorber and a steel cutting bit.

But predominately I deal with mild steel 5160, and O1. Stainless sucks. Damascus I use nickle steel band saw blades.

All done with coal... which turns into coke in the burning process... And I will tell you that coke will not hold a flame without a significant air or oxygen flow!!! It is essentially amorphous graphite, and graphite fires are extrememly hard to start but once started are even more difficult to stop! Chernobyl is a prime example of that.

Can jetfuel melt steel... I'll bet it can. You have a funnel from the impact site going all the way through the building constricting as it comes out the other side. Prime example.

I'll do an experiment someday soon to prove diesel can melt steel.
I'm interested in knowing myself.

Oh and some paperclips rust!

One day in the Kingdom of YHVH "GOD" all eyes & ears will see & hear the truth about not only this subject but all of histories Conspiracies and how they brought about the last days governments & the end of this age.

This event (9-11-01) was a false flag terror event as was the "Reichstag" event of Our Nation!!...................And the weak minded citizenry of the United States cant see it for what it is!

But many are awakened & now see! Glory be to GOD!

" http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/burns.htm "

Under the Guise of "Terrorism" our own Government will "Try" to take away our Liberty!!!!!
But "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety", and these are the things people spoke of in the time of the Founding of the United States back in 1776..............But the weak,fat, decadent Americans of today would not know this or think in this manner because they believe everything they hear on the government F.C.C. Controled media, and the government training camps better known as "public schools & universities"................................a bunch of slaves to the Federal Reserve Banksters and their enforcement arm the I.R.S.!! In 1933 a bank holiday was declared and gold was confiscated and paper tokens became legal tender "what a joke on us all"......most people dont understand what real money is!!......."Gold & Silver"..not token paper backed by nothing. This is why inflation exist today!

" http://www.reformation.org/roosevelt_confiscates_gold.html "

" http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&am...0laws%20illegal "

" http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&am...d%20confiscated "

So with the dumbed down Americans not even knowing that they have been taken over and their money confiscated by the Privately Owned Banking institution known as the Federal Reserve, which is not federal & has no reserves!...........How can we who have been Awakened From Slumber expect the Sleeping Masses to understand much of anything to do with 9-11???

Read this and wake up!

"
http://www.mecfilms.com/creature.htm "

" http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Isla...e/dp/0912986212 "

" http://www.spielbauer.com/JekyllDownload.htm "

Like in the movie the Matrix people have become put to sleep & used as "Human Resources" batteries to power the evil system all around them!.............No longer are People going to the "Personel Department"
to find a job, they go to "Human Resources" with their mark of the beast number "soc security #" and little do they realize what is going on with this system of control.

Hi Seven with Deborah mentioned:



The whereabouts of the passengers of Flights 93 and 77 is beyond the scope of my thesis, claims, evidence and conclusions from the Opening Post. We are trying to match the ‘evidence’ in this case with the “Official Bush Administration / DoD Cover Story,” which in my view does not hold water. You might find the information you seek in Laura Knight-Jadczyk’s commentary on Michael Ruppert’s Work.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/boeing.htm



The fact is that with so much ‘disinformation’ floating around, that one has difficulty viewing all the evidence and determining precisely what is the ‘facts’ in these cases. That is what you should expect when the real ‘terrorist’ is sitting in the White House and has been lying to Americans all along about Weapons of Mass Destruction and everything else . . .



You are asking the right questions, but unfortunately there are too many answers depending on the sources. You would think a temporary morgue would be set up at the Pentagon. Right? Wrong. All of the bodies were flown to a remote location ‘at Fort Myer, Virginia:

http://www.usmedicine.com/article.cfm?arti...&issueID=31



The doctors receiving the bodies at Fort Myer, Virginia had no idea they were coming from Wright Patterson airport in Southern Ohio. Unfortunately for the victims of Flight 77, the evidence indicates they were all gassed and their bodies charred to simulate a Jetliner crash. The truth will not be known for certain, until Congress begins hearings to resolve all of these matters.



The fact that only the true terrorists have your answers is no reason to let them off the hook. The official photos of the Flight 93 crash outside of Shanksville ( http://911review.org/93/maps/ ) and those from the Pentagon ( http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/preview.html ) either agree with the Official Government Story OR they do not! WTC-7 was either brought down by controlled demolition that took months to place by the ‘true terrorists’ OR the 47 story skyscraper was taken down by a few fires in just a few hours. Deborah has superior knowledge of metals and she realizes that high grade insulated steel beams require a great amount of heat for an extended period in order to suffer catastrophic failure. I hope she will speak up more and let everyone know that no single fire, or even a few fires, could possibly cause the 'simultaneous' failure of all these supporting structures to cause 47 stories of perfectly good skyscraper to fall straight down into its own footprint. Imagine that her father was commissioned to take down a building like WTC-7, then imagine he said to build a fire over here and a fire over there and the whole place will come tumbling down in just a few hours! No steel structure like WTC-7 has ever fallen down from fire in the history of this country and none ever will. The fuel required to sustain such a fire would have greater capacity than the entire building could hold. Anyone using a set of torches knows the settings must be made perfectly for the right amounts of gases to be delivered through the tip or all of the fuel is wasted. Holding the torch just a few inches away from the metal means nothing happens at all. Steel displaces heat into the atmosphere very easily, which makes the stuff very difficult to melt in the first place. Look at the video again:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC7_Collapse.mpg

Place your curser right on the round scrollbar and move the thing back and forth again and again to make the building go up and down. Look at the two sides of WTC-7 very closely and tell me if you see any fires affecting ANY of the exterior columns and beams??? Any? No! Even if you build a very hot fire in several locations, that would only affect a very small percentage of the supporting beams and columns. Even if you used a torch to cut through several of these beams, the adjacent supports would accept the load and the building goes nowhere. For this building to collapse into its own footprint, ALL of the beams and columns had to be severed SIMULTANEOUSLY. That is what ‘controlled demolition’ is all about! Even if this building were engulfed in flames for days and days, the entire structure would not fall in demolition fashion. These yoyo’s are going to get caught, because their demolition job was carried out with far too much precision!

The American People are being called to wake up and see the light on this matter. You can either remain sound asleep or open up your eyes and take a long hard look at the evidence. Terral has nothing to gain by deceiving anyone, but I know the truth on this and related matters. If you have opposing views, then please include ‘evidence’ that supports your claims and conclusions. GL in the debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Sorry terral... That dog won't hunt.

Steel begins to weeken as it goes from the austinite phase into the martensite phase which by the way in structural steel is around 400 degrees F. Of course we are talking about structural steel here and not high carbon steel, so the crystalline formation of austinite to martensite will be considerably less. And from what I have heard is that the steel in the WTC buildings was inferior to some grades they could be using. A simple higher cromium content on the range of tenths to one hundredths of a percent could have prevented the collapse. Never the less.... the scoffers shall scoff.

Deb,
The paper clips I buy are steel. Says so on the box. Yup - right there, steel paper clips. I can use a magnet to pick them up. Aluminum does not contain any type of ferrous material, so a magnet can not attract aluminum. I suppose there are aluminum ones, but I don't own any.

Just wanted to point that out. Itchy, excellent web site. The sites I have added to this debate are great as well. Just for kicks here they are:

http://home.planet.nl/~reijd050/JoeR/penta...ensions_est.htm Pentagon crash)
http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf#sear...conspiracy'

After I read the points made at http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm it made even more sense that the conspiracy theorists are hard at work trying desperately hard to discredit Bush because they don't like him. They hate the 'Neo-cons' so much that they have to transfer what evil, mad Islamofacists have done to someone they despise. BTW, here is an excerpt from the site that you mentioned:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conspiracy theorists say World Trade Center 7 is the best proof for controlled demolition because it wasn't hit by airliners and only had a few fires. They also claim that there was a confession from the building owner who said he "pulled" it. But this is deceptive because while building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner, it was hit by the large perimeter columns of the Tower collapse. It was 400 ft away but the towers were more than 1300 ft tall. As the tower peeled open, it easily tilted over to reach building 7. Below is evidence showing that conspiracy theorists are wrong.

As you can see from the graphic below, all the buildings just as far away from both towers as WTC7 were hit. The others were either very short buildings which didn't have to support a massive load above or had no fire. Only Building 7 had unfought fires and the massive load of 40 stories above them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update:

The second paragraph above has been challenged by conspiracy theorists. For more information on this and a rebuttal read the update around the middle of the page.



Below is a photo of the Bankers Trust building.



As you can see, the building never caught fire so it was never in any danger of collapse. It also was constructed differently, with a web column design. The interior columns were not pushed out to the perimeter.

Note the WTC columns laid out as if there were a path to the building. There are no concrete slabs attached to columns. This is yet another example of pancaking. With the floors pancaking straight down, the perimeter walls were free to lean over in tall sections before breaking off and coming down. That's what gave them distance.

So we know the building should have been hit given the debris field above. But what of the damage to the building? Conspiracy sites say there were small fires. And what of Silverstein's comments in the PBS special? He used the term "Pull" to describe a decision made. Conspiracy theorists say "Pull" is a term used by demolition experts. This is one of those many half truths conspiracy theorists use to convince the ignorant. "Pull" is used when they "Pull" a building away from another with cables during demolition.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/boBq0jM6Mmo"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/boBq0jM6Mmo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One really needs to view the rest of the page.

There are more and more conspiracy theories all the time...distracting, isn't it?

Hi Itchy:



I am not here convince itchy or scratchy of anything. My Opening Post is presented to assist the ‘unbiased’ third party reader in seeing ‘the truth’ concerning these three 9/11 attacks. My statements are backed with pictures and video showing exactly why I believe 9/11 was certainly an ‘inside job.’ All of your posts combined have no thesis on what really happened on 9/11 in the Shanksville field ( http://911review.org/93/maps/ ), or at the Pentagon ( http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pent1/details.html ) or to WTC-7 ( http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC7_Collapse.mpg ). Those blinded by your total disregard for the facts in these cases were not paying much attention in the first place.

GL,

Terral

Terral,
Thesis? Unbiased? There is nothing 'unbiased' about what you presented! Here is what you opened with:



Immediately you claim that Jim Meigs has discredited himself. You make a HUGE leap to say that! Are you a demolition expert? probably not. You only presented web sites that 'proved' your point, which you already declared in the title of the topic, which is 'Replying to Rosie Was Right: Wtc-7 Was An "inside" Job'.

You have in NO WAY presented an unbiased case. To do that, you would need to present ALL sides of the argument, which you have never done.

Please, spare me the 'I am presenting the truth' bit because you are not. It is your opinion, which you are entitled to do. But your 'thesis' is nothing but a bias opinion.

Hi Great:

Great >> Deb, The paper clips I buy are steel. Says so on the box. Yup - right there, steel paper clips. I can use a magnet to pick them up. Aluminum does not contain any type of ferrous material, so a magnet can not attract aluminum. I suppose there are aluminum ones, but I don't own any.[/quote]

Steel paperclips have nothing to do with anything.



Pasting your propaganda to this thread challenges nothing in the Opening Post showing no “PLANE” crash in the Shanksville field or anywhere at the Pentagon. Filling this thread to the brim with your links is not going to explain how 47 stories of skyscraper fell straight down into its own footprint just a few hours after being struck by NOTHING! Where is your precedent for a 47 story skyscraper falling to the ground from any fire in US history? Do you have even one? No! Does the outside of this building show signs of any fire at all?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC7_Collapse.mpg

Well? No! And yet, all of the supporting columns and beams suffered catastrophic failure at the very same instant. Go ahead and tell us in your own works how that is even possible. Good luck!



Liking or disliking Senor Bush has nothing at all to do with any of the ‘evidence’ supporting my claims in the Opening Post of this thread. You can either explain the lack of 100 ton evidence in the Shanksville photos ( http://911review.org/93/maps/ ) or you cannot. Period! You are attempting to demonize your debating opponents on this thread with talk about ‘conspiracy theorists,’ instead of addressing the evidence presented in my Opening Post. My side of this debate has no need to demonize anyone, because ‘the truth’ is on my side and not yours. Simply head back up to the Opening Post and point out any errors in my claims, evidence or conclusions. Good luck, because you need it . . .



Give it a rest already. Have you any comment on ‘the topic’ of my thread or not? Or are you just here to ramble aimlessly about people who hate Bush?



What your version of ‘conspiracy theorists’ think or say has NOTHING to do with the evidence presented in the Opening Post of this thread. The data in my post is very specific and you can either respond to that data of you cannot. You are once again trying to hijack this thread to “SomeWhereElseVille.”



What conspiracy theorists? The ones in your imagination? Please . . . Even your picture shows WTC-7 shielded by WTC-6 standing directly between WTC-7 and WTC-1. Anyone can see the large black “X’s” by the Verizon Building and WTC-3. There are no ‘Exterior Column’ X’s anywhere near WTC-7, which is evidenced by the video:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC7_Collapse.mpg

Look at the thing again and again. Stop the video on the building and tell me if you see any breaks in any of the walls whatsoever? No! Do you see even one sign of flames coming from the building? No again! And yet, WTC-7 is coming down anyway and at almost ‘freefall velocity.’ This can only be done through ‘controlled demolition’ using explosives and you know it.



LOL! Massive load? Please . . . Where did you ever get the idea these few fires were not fought? The place was wired for demolition. Why fight a tiny little fire? This skyscraper burned for over 24 hours and you can actually see the flames pouring out everywhere, but the thing never fell to the ground:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/news_web/video...471_nb_16x9.ram

You can read the whole story here:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/mad...ing_inferno.htm

The real conspiracy here is being perpetuated by those adhering to the “Official Bush Administration / DoD Cover Story” that makes no sense at all.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Hi gr82bsaved (Great):



Yes. My proposal is that these 9/11 events were all carried out as ‘inside jobs.’ Do you ever address what your debating opponent actually said? I am growing to doubt it. The “unbiased” part is given to the ‘unbiased third party reader.’ Are you blind or just acting that way? My debating ‘opponents’ (like you) have already made up their minds and that is all the makings for a “Great Debate.” Right? Of course. You give your side and I will continue presenting mine and our readers can decide for themselves . . .



Not at all. The guy discredited himself by saying ‘wiring’ WTC-7 would take months, but then claimed a few fires took the whole place down in just a few hours. The latter half of his statement is rendered false by the first half. The reason it takes months to take down this kind of building is because many charges must be set in key locations throughout the structure. Setting a fire here and there will never cause all of the supporting structures to fail simultaneously and no vacuum can be created with sufficient force to pull the building down using simple fires. Pyrotechnic charges are required and they must be detonated in sequence for the vacuum to form inside the building and pull the building down in this manner.



No murder investigator is an expert at murdering citizens. Yes I am a demolition expert, but experienced in taking down smaller structures using machinery. I am also a good mathematician and know enough to realize WTC-7 was demolished using controlled demolition techniques. Want to see building implosion techniques at work?

http://www.qh2.com/video.php?id=2224

http://www.guzer.com/videos/nice_building_implosion.php

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC7_Collapse.mpg

Yes, the first two have loud sounds from the detonation of the charges and WTC-7 does not. There was no reason to muffle the charges in the first two examples and the windows are all intact in WTC-7.



Of course. The evidence in the Opening Post makes ‘my’ case, which is why my name appears on the post. Your Opening Posts work to prove ‘your’ point on whatever that topic might be.



Lord-Have-Mercy. There is nothing in any of my words about presenting an ‘unbiased’ case. My case is being presented for the benefit of the ‘unbiased third party reader.’ That does not include my debating ‘opponents’ like you. :0)



Any thesis is a ‘proposal, theory or hypothesis,’ which is where the term ‘thesis’ originates. By stating that you are presenting a ‘thesis,’ then you are presenting ‘your theory.’ I am here to defend ‘my thesis’ that these three 9/11 attacks are certainly ‘inside jobs.’ That is ‘my’ opinion without regard to whatever my debating opponents feel comfortable believing . . .

BTW, nothing you have presented makes even a dent in anything presented in the Opening Post of this thread. GL in the debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Just a question/observation. Weren't the towers (as many tall buildings) made to implode w/n themselves if the structural integrity were ever compromised? Even on a side? Rather than fall over, that would have been an even greater catastrophie.

From researching the issue and round about the subject, (new world order, one world government, corrupion and occult involvement with US government), I can say that Rosie O'Donnel raises vaild points everytime.
Fox news will try and discredit her informed opinions, because that is in their interest as an influential media corporation.

Who owns America's media? A few very rich and powerfu moguls. They use the 'news' as propeganda. What they didn't count on was a presenter who would actually speak her own opinons and not tow the standard script. So now they have to quickly back track and make her out as some kind of nut. IT is frankly appalling.

When there are big stories to be reprted on and the truth needs to be revealed, you are not going to find the accurate version on fox news. It is heavily biased because the people who own it are very good friends with Mr Bush, either through business contacts/ new world order/ occult bohemian grove links.

This channel (and others) is used as a manipulating tool to influence the opinion of Americans who are unable to question things or think for themselves. The state of US society has sunk to such apathetic uniformed levels, that it seems for a long time no-one has been abel to discern truth from fiction, and the US government have done a semi-plausable job of convincing the public at large of the 'official' line.

Have a look at these links and open your eyes. Hopefully America will not be as ignorant as they have been.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1697.cfm
http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1062.html
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9722
http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/weather.cfm
www.prisonplanet.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlektNNtD_w...ted&search=
www.wtc7.net
www.thetruth.mysite.com

http://www.911inplanesite.com/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294
http://thepowerhour.com/welcome.htm
http://keeprosie.com/
http://www.opednews.com/

Sorry Again Terral...

Your credibility is completely shot with me yet again... Now perhaps Like Deb. does have more metalurgical knowlege than I do... However, for you to state that Deb has more understanding of of alloys and their reactive principles from what the two of us have posted... and then to complete gloss over my other statements as if they weren't even said shows me that you are carried about by the faintest wind. You have no roots in knowledge.

LOL really, I've worked with lots metals (aluminum, steel, brass, bronze, a little silver, copper, Iron, and a little nickle) for several years. Oh and as for the Acetylene torch to be set "just right" well then again you show your lack knowledge. To be "efficient" you need to listen to the "hiss" to be precise. And there is a significant difference between melting steel and cutting steel. In the process of cutting steel you are using a oxidizing flame. In the steel cutting process you heat up the steel to welding temps 'lemon drop yellow' and then blast it with oxygen! It is the oxygen that cuts the steel not the flame! For melting steel you don't need an oxidizing flame you can do it with a neutral flame or even a carburizing flame.

How long did WTC 7 cook before it was overcome by the stress? It fell about 5:00 right? When did the attacks happen? It was eight o-clock in the morning where I was when the news hit. Plenty of time!

Oh and the "fuel needing to be greater than the capcity of the building..." where did you pull that from?

Hey did I tell you that I'm a welder?

Seriously, your credibility is shot! That dog won't hunt. And I did present my opinion of what created the crater in shanksville and the pentagon... It is called inerta!

You are rabidly hanging on to a conspiracy in the face of logic and I will ask you a question or two...

What are your true underlying motives?

What do you hope to accomplish or motivate by this conspiracy?

===============================================

Quite frankly I don't think you can tell the difference between a horse muffin and a lobster... but that is just my opinion.

Ya.... reality check time.

Nobody even noticed the size of the crater that was left where the towers once stood...imagine the impact and pressure of the buildings one and two falling...all the debris, and all of the underground garages and tunnels connecting the buildings...

Now check out what the Bible says...I was reading this passage on 9/11 when it happened!

Eze 19:10 ¶ Thy mother [is] like a vine in thy blood, planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters.


Eze 19:11 And she had strong rods for the sceptres of them that bare rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches.


Eze 19:12 But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them.


Eze 19:13 And now she [is] planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground.


Eze 19:14 And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, [which] hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod [to be] a sceptre to rule. This [is] a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.

Can anyone explain this plume of smoke shown on CNN only once and never shown again? Keep in mind that both towers are still standing and burning...this was long before either WTC1 or WTC2 collapsed.



http://www.calgary911truth.org/my_weblog/2...in_plane_s.html



Satan doesn't care if he is liked or disliked...he wants the right "wing" to believe the lie and the left "wing" to hate Jesus...either way, he wins...."be wise as serpents but harmless as doves"-Jesus



Since when has the right wing "neo-con" or the left wing "liberal" cared more about Jesus' words than MONEY, anyway? Why is George Bush hell-bent on allowing slave labor from Mexico to enter this country, causing average wages to decrease, in the face of another 9/11 or worse, by keeping our borders porous, which in turn created a huge backlash against republican incumbents for sitting idly by and twiddling their thumbs while the president sells this country out from under us in the last congressional elections and gave Democrats a "mandate" so to speak? Does anybody recall what Bill Gates said recently about "immigrant labor" that there should be no limit? Are we as Americans really that fat and stupid? Lord help us!





P.S. let us not forget that George Bush called our own citizens "vigilantes"...(minutemen) who took it upon themselves to patrol our southern border with Mexico...meanwhile two of our border patrol agents are still rotting in a maximum security prison for doing their job...and don't think this doesn't have anything to do with what happened on 9/11 because it has everything to do with the bold faced lies we were told...by the media and the president...and all the king's men's subsequent actions and "newspeak" prove it....Dick Cheney's Haliburton, for one...



This has nothing to do with "hating" anyone..."Ye shall know them by their fruits"





Take a look at what Joseph Farah wrote and published on WND just 21 days after 9/11/2001

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24741



Just as Dave VonKleist said "The people who believe the official story from our government are the real 'conspiracy theorists'"



Revelation 18

11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 12 cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, 13 cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.

Hahahaha. Terral, you crack me up.



Same here. You are so poor at convincing anyone of anything simply because you always come on so strong! Immediately people want to resist you. In my point of view, you have presented nothing but fanciful arguments. Of course, I am not the one with a 'thesis' to prove. I am presenting the other side of this debate, and therefore I do not intend - unless satisfactorily persuaded - to change my view. So sure and yet you have nothing to be sure of!



Call it what you want, but you are have not managed to persuade me with your 'propaganda' (I know you don't call it that because you don't spread propaganda - ). You claim that building seven suffered no damage sufficient to cause it to collapse, and yet the site that Itchy references says otherwise. Did you look at it? You claim that there were nothing but small fires, so it had to be explosives that brought the building down, and yet the site Itchy linked to showed there was a big hole in the building. So SOMETHING had to hit it, and massive fires had to have broken out in it. I visited the sites you linked to. Again, I am not convinced. They don't talk about the missing corner of the building. Why?

Here is one of the quotes from the site http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm:



I suppose Richard did not know what he was talking about. He was a fire fighter right there, looking at building seven, on the scene - but we know that he can't be right because there were only 'small fires' going on in the building according to the people that you listen too. What was he thinking?

Let's talk about fire melting metal. The fire from the jet fuel of the 767s weakened the support structures of the towers, but were not the main factor in the collapse. Here are the facts about that:

http://home.planet.nl/~reijd050/JoeR/penta...ensions_est.htm (long article about the plane that hit the Pentagon, plenty of pictures for Terral to look at that, including pictures of the wreckage from the plane, etc).

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...eased&st=15 (A post about the study done debunking accusations that the towers were 'blown up' by explosives placed in key areas to cause them to collapse. It is written in 'engineering-ese', so I took the important parts out and explained them. But for Terral's benefit - and I know I am wasting my time, or at least I suspect I am! - I have included the analysis below).

From the post referenced above:

Here is a link to a paper that you may not understand, but it is well worth the read:

http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf#sear...conspiracy'

The paper uses a lot of math. Unless you are a physics major or an engineer (like I am), you may not understand a lot of the information presented. I will save you some time - the conclusion of the paper is that the amount of energy expended due to the impact of the airliners caused the failure of the support columns of the tower. The jet fuel, although a contributing factor, did not bring the towers down. It was the energy expended in the impact and the resulting destruction of the structural support columns of the building that led to the support structure failures. Imagine this - the energy of an airliner impacting one of the towers:





So there was quite a difference in the amount of energy of the impact versus the energy needed to destroy the structural supports of the a WTC - the impact of the plane exceeded the destructive energy needs by 2.4 x 10^9 J of energy! The planes were easily able to sever the support structures of the floors the planes flew into. Since there is conservation of energy, the rest of the 2.4 x 10^9 J of energy had to go somewhere, and so some was heat (not much) and the rest absorbed by the building but which caused additional stress on the structural members of the floors the planes hit which caused structural weakening. Add to that the sudden introduction of 137 tons of plane into the damaged support structure and I think you can see what the result would be.

The rest of the energy from the impact was absorbed by the building in the form of sway (recoil of the building after it was hit) and the energy dissipated by the destruction of the aircraft it self.

We are talking about a lot of energy being transferred into the building due to the impact - over 2 million Btu's of energy from the collision itself, and that does not include the amount of energy the vapor ball of jet fuel contained. The paper also mentions the fact that the 14 floors that crashed down on tower 1 and the 30 floors that crashed down on tower 2 could indeed cause the building to collapse vertically, similarly to an implosion induced by explosives.

In short, the math shows that the towers were not 'blown up'. Please read the article and make up your own mind...

Again, to use Itchy's words: "Physics just beat them too it that is all"

Video and pictures can be interpretted any way the viewer is inclined to see it. Audio is the same. The written word is subject to it as well. Arguments about the words "pull it" have surfaced in this debate. Even people who are eye witnesses of the same event come out with differing versions. Look at the forum! We can all read the same scriptures, and yet there are as many opinions and interpretations as there are people. Even huge, evident events like the manned moon landing in July of 1969 have detractors that claim the government made that up, and they can 'prove it' with 'convincing' mathematical evidence that it was all a ruse. Wait - 911 was a huge, evident event as well. I guess they are still at it!

I have enjoyed the spirited debate. But it is a worthless exercise. Believe what you want Terral, Hosea, Deb and Mattgen. I will believe what I will believe. Please don't disappoint me, Terral. Please tell me again about the propaganda that I have posted and the links that don't make a dent in your 'thesis'. If you miss the opportunity, it would make me think that you might be reevaluating your position. We don't want that to happen!

Grace and peace be unto you all, from GOD our FATHER, and from JESUS CHRIST.

I believe it too Terral.

Thank you Onetiggeroo... I just thought about the tunnel systems before I logged back on.

Weren't there six sub floors below the towers? Now with the collapsing towers the air pressure in the central collumn would increase like an accordion. All of that air pressure would have been forced into the subfloors and if there were any tunnels connecting the towers to WTC 7 that air pressure would have come out in the lower floors of WTC 7. This could have weakend the structure to the point of collapse.

Then there was the shock of the towers once they hit the ground. Depending on how deep the bedrock was the force of the shock waves would have liquified the ground WTC 7 was sitting on. The outward force of the shock waves could have shifted the foundation of WTC 7 in one direction and numerous buildings would now have added pressure on one side of their foundations from the collapse of the towers. Punch your fist in a slop of mud and watch the mud squeeze outward. Conceal that mud with concrete on it's top and you have a shift of the substrate under the foundation. If water mains were broken they would have increased the squishiness of the ground around WTC 7 further aiding in its collapse.

And finally if the piles under WTC 7 were knocked out of kilter (essentially tilted in one direction) from the shock of the twin towers collapse, they would no longer be able to support the weight of WTC 7 under the liquified substrate.

So there are plenty of possibilities that could have contributed to the WTC 7 collapse without the need for a "conspiracy".

There is no doubt that the collapse of the twin towers would have cracked and shifted the foundations of the immediately surrounding buildings.

And as for the craters in the pentagon and shanksville... aircraft are not safety tested to withstand a head impact with a solid object at 400 mph. They are crash tested to survive a controlled crash landing... meaning a controlled skid! The idiots flying those jetliners crashed them deliberately into extremely hard material. And there is no way any piece of a wing, tail, body would survive the impact... That is impossible. The jets disintegrated on impact scattering their fragmented remains.

Again... no conspiracy.

"The gear that squeeks the loudest gets the oil"

I can't say I am an expert at metallugy-- LOL I wish but my biological father does work in scrap metal and I've known a few that worked in steel. I have done a few minor experiments with metal in chemistry.

Anyway as far as building 7 being "pulled"---

Check this out from BBC News in London--- they announced its collapse 23 minutes BEFORE it happened! You can even see WTC 7 still standing has they "prophesy" ahead of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EuK3tCihJ0

Here its even clearer in the full coverage listen and watch carefully. They clearly announced